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Hi Everyone,
I saw this on Kickstarter today. I think it is a really interesting concept but doubt if it is possible to do it in any useful/effective way. What do others think?
I am not looking for an opinion on whether I should buy it but thought it would be interesting to discuss here.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-c/description
Thanks.
Haroon
I'd be interested in seeing how the "AI" can automatically map your car. Something just sounds suss about it.
Interested too but it looks like yet another expensive version of the resistor cheater box. No way itll be able to automatically update the map of your car with a tuned version. The monitoring features are similar to free torque app with a cheap elm bt dingle dangle dongle thingy at 1/50 of the price. May improve throttle response giving a false feeling of any power increase. I have my doubts too but time will tell.
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Took a quick look and loved the idea. This thing just makes sense. No reason it can't be making minor adjustments ongoing and monitoring effects through the other sensors provided via ODB then working out it's own more optimised for your car custom adjustment map. So no, not a cheap ebay resistor device at all.
Yes the monitoring software is as he points out in the kickstarter listing can be any ODB software of which there are many as he says. They used Dash Command in testing.
Well done I say.
Yeah definitely very interesting. I'm going to keep an eye on it to see what more information he puts up and how he answers new questions from people.
I think that it should be possible to modify a few main things to improve power while having set parameters for other things so it is still safe. This can allow for a slight 'custom' side to it as every car runs differently depending on fuel, air temp, age etc.
Where I find this hard to believe is simply in how the system would make adjustments. Anybody who has ever used an OBDII flash tuning tool such as the EDS IPF or Bluefin, etc. will know this one fact: Flashing a new map takes on average between 10-15 mins. This isn't because the programmers themselves are slow, but it's the communication protocol contained within the ECU. I just don't see how you can do any form of live mapping when it would take 10-15 mins each time to flash a new change to the ECU. Even the custom tuners use tools that are bound by these limitations too.
So, yeah I'll remain skeptical on this until they can prove me wrong otherwise. In the meantime, I'm happy with the EDS IPF for my tuning needs. At least there I can rely on the expertise of tuners that have not only developed the mods necessary, but have also spent the time on the dyno to provide safe and effective tunes.
I don't think it flashes at all. He mentions intercept in one place in the description. The following link has some decent information about what this is. I am thinking that this what he is doing but he is claiming that his programming is more intelligent than any existing product using this. I think this is also why he says that as soon as you unplug the device the ecu is completely normal again.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article...rt-12&A=113167
Seems right. If you can remove it and the ecu is normal again it can't have written anything to the ecu. If I hadn't just bought and installed the Bluespark unit I probably would jump on this myself.. That is, if I could bring myself to wait. Patience is not one of my strong points.
Doesn't make any sense to me, I fairly sure the data from the obd plug is from the ecu so altering any data at the obd plug would do nothing. The way a interceptor works is it alters the input signal before it enters the ecu or after the Ecu on outputs by splicing into the wiring harness. The only thing I can think it could do is keep resetting the adapts/trim but that does FA really.
Hey Guys, Aaron from Berry Robotics here. Just though id pop in an help out anyway I can. @dutchy: Its no lie, the monitoring features really are nothing out of the ordinary using ELM Bluetooth technology, though its not quite the 'cheap' dongle, using a faster processor speed and much more reliable circuitry then $15 Chinese devices. A hidden feature for the Bluetooth connection is that the re-tune module will be able to accept firmware updates in the future if required.
I understand that having a project through Kickstarter allows consumers to have an in depth, manufacturing story of the product with a great perspective on design which I believe we have fulfilled quite well on the campaign page. Unfortunately due to the nature of the product, there is only so much information I can release without compromising the architecture of the circuitry and software which remains intellectual property. I completely understand there is ALWAYS going to be sceptics and some people who will flat out refuse to accept any new invention, because I'm one of them! There is a lot of profitable junk that gets released every year through fantastic marketing and manipulative selling techniques.
What I will emphasis is that I have developed an amazing product that I'm very proud to back and I will be happy to help anyone understand the best I can without compromising the integrity of its functionality.
If anyone has any direct questions for me I will be happy to assist any way I can over here. As you could imagine its an extremely busy time at Berry Robotics at the moment so please allow up to a day or 2 for a reply.
Best Regards,
Aaron
Hello Aaron and welcome to the forum. Well, never said it was a lie, just had my doubts as some others on the forum as well that have tuned their ecu before. It takes a fair while for the ecu to update the map. I myself am using a cheater device on my car giving lower readings to the ecu and ecu in place responding to that but in all honesty it doesn't do very much. The thing is that not everyone is willing, or can risk one of the most prized possessions and for not much more there are other tuning devices that have several maps, proven on a dyno, to update maps as engine upgrades take place. In any case, if you do have a unit that you want to test, I am willing to provide my car which has the latest Astra by Opel / Holden and has the 1.6 turbo engine as featured in several models. 'll arrange and pay for a dyno run with and without your device and post the results. I'm pretty sure we can arrange a group buy if results are good. Please send me a pm if interested and we'll arrange it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by berry
Hi Aaron, welcome to the forum. This is an interesting development. Hehe.
I would be very interested if it could be tested as dutchy suggests. I would be willing to contribute to the costs of such a test and if the product is proven I would definitely purchase it.
Welcome @berry (Aaron). Actually something @dutchy just said opens up an interesting question:
Given that the Berry has a feedback loop which is constantly monitored, does this mean that it will actually adapt to changes / mods made to the car and optimise the new configuration thereby negating the need for the traditional multiple maps that are required currently?
after reading this thread and watching the promo video, i was wondering if you had to run on a stock car tune or could it run on top of a flash tune?
The app screenshot indicates a direct copy of the DashCommand app by Palmer Performance Engineering.
http://i.imgur.com/O5qXvhU.png
Perhaps Berry has licensed the app from Palmer. Perhaps not.
My research so far indicates my Corsarina xC uses the ISO 9141-2 standard which maxes out at a data rate of just 10.4 kilobits per second. The messages flying around the bus are very small though. Theoretically according to the standard messages max out at 255 bytes. That's tiny so a lot of messages could be pushed around the bus every second. Whether that's enough to enable a device like this to make a difference to a car is another matter.
Newer cars using the CAN bus can transmit A LOT more bps. A quick glance at the compatibilty charts suggest the product may only be targetting CAN bus cars which could make sense.
@berry can wax lyrical about how well they've tried to explain themselves on their KS page, but this line is super generic and thus dodgy:
Typical marketing spin there and this is more of the same given what @berry has written in this thread:Quote:
The berry is the world’s most advanced automotive computer system.
Call me a weirdo but that implies flashing the ECU, not fudging sensor messages flying around the bus to get the ECU behaving differently, or "establishing" a new ECU map:Quote:
By modifying your vehicles existing computer, ...
The page is full of dodgy signals IMHO, including:Quote:
establishes a modified engine map directly to the ECU
- Referencing Aaron's studying but not the institution and specific degree
- Stating a table of performance and economy claims but not referencing which economy test was used to get those figures
- Most claims of % improvements are at levels barely noticable to the average driver
- Company name including "Robotics" implies impressive capabilities but this product has absolutely zero to do with robotics
- The "anodized case" is nothing more than an everyday Altoids tin
- Another term for "detuning" is finding the average between extreme economy and fuel-guzzling power. Guess what? Lots of drivers would prefer a balance between the two! Only a small minority would want the extremes, so what do OEMs do ... set the base ECU map to the average or middle ground to satisfy most drivers then offer power (sport) and economy modes? Oh wait, they already do that!
- The excuse that intellectual property would be exposed if they detail their product more exhaustively is dubious. We're not asking for the secret sauce algorithms programmed into whatever IC the unit uses. We're asking for detail of how the secret sauce is applied. We all know OBD can provide data essentially in a read-only manner. Significantly influencing the car's electronic control systems by write to the OBD port, not so much.
That post did not make much sense to me.
Just a few things from that post.
- They didn't claimed that it was their app, in actuallythey show it is Dash Command on the page. They say you can use any ODB app, but that is the one they used I believe.
- Claims of percentage improvement of 28% and 33% not noticeable? I'm pretty sure that would be noticeable.
- A problem with Robotica in the name? Did apple ever sell an apple? Did Gumtree have anything to do with gumtrees? Hmm.. just a name. Besides, they claim to have other aspirations which could actually involve some robotics, not that it matters anyway.
- Altoids tin.. hahahaha. Good one.
- Also, having developed stuff before and currently, albeit software related, I know about the absolute need to protect information, which I also know makes it hard from an outsider's perspective to understand and appreciate. Everyone always wants to know more, while saying things like what harm can it do. A lot actually. So if they want/need to keep any detail under lock and key, so be it.
I do agree that some of the wording is a bit confusing and would benefit from cleaning it up somewhat.
There can always be more information and I assume over time it will come along. This is a kickstarter campaign afterall.
Heh heh. Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenZOPC
Re ...Quote:
Originally Posted by BenZOPC
1. I later clicked to unveil one of their FAQs where they say it's DashCommand. Show/hiding the FAQs got me there.
2. I didn't see percentage claims near one third. I think I saw a minimum suggestion of around 10% and a maximum a bit higher, maybe that 28% figure. I think the point is not a lot of people necessarily pay very close attention to fuel usage but more likely have a vague impression. Not saying that is reasonable or a good thing, just that people like to whinge and sometimes won't easily notice/credit savings unless they are half or more. In this forum most of us are more car aware than everyday drivers. The other factor is price. People rightfully whine about price fluctuations when it comes to petrol and rarely pay much attention to reducing their own consumption thru changes to driving style, inflation of tyres, etc. Or maybe I just worked as a clerk in a servo for too long :)
3. What's in a name? This wasn't my strongest point. But I do think it's debatable to include a reference to robotics in the context of this product. So many non-technical people would relate to the word robotics as a credible-sounding technical term even though there's no robotics involved. It's not as if, AFAIK, there's really likely to be any genuine artificial intelligence in this product. That would really stun me. I'd say it's more likely to be human-derived and hard-coded algorithms rather than anything heurisic.
5. I can understand the IP angle though haven't had the experience you mention. With open source so big now, it's also even more foreign to me. You're right, they can deny us any details they like. But it's equally our right to be skeptical if they do :) I still think they could be more convincing about how they apply the secret sauce without giving away their entire secret sauce IP. However in hindsight I guess it's also possible the a big part of their 'secret sauce' is that application methodology in addition to the algorithms that are supposed to spew out better settings.
I'm not claiming to have followed a lot of kickstarters but I'd have thought the very nature of crowd funding would mean that those asking for backing would spend more time smoothing out their presentation. I mean these people are asking multiple members of the public, who are likely not familiar with early product development analysis, to cough up money ... essentially trust them ... without displaying strong communication skills? I know they're often engineers and so forth with great skills in fields other than communications. I also know it's a bloody fine line between getting your presentation done by some PR company who could make it sound way too wanky when maybe the public is more inclined to back underdogs on crowd funding sites ... But I guess it would be to their benefit, and go towards convincing this cynical black duck, if their wording was clearer and more detailed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BenZOPC
Having said all of that, I just read a section of the Gregorys (Haynes?) workshop manual for the Corsarina that almost knocked me off my perch:
I guess that makes sense and perhaps isn't too surprising after reading it a few times. However as I first read it, I had this product / thread in my mind and that sounds exactly like the orientation, very loosely, this product is supposedly manipulating. Freaky.Quote:
The engine management electronic control unit is of the 'self-learning' type, meaning that as it operates, it also monitors and stores the settings which give optimum engine performance under all operating conditions. WHen the battery is disconnected, these settings are lost and the ECU reverts to the base settings programmed into it's memory at the factory.
Interestingly, this project exceeded it's funding goal.
Don't think he'll need it anymore but my offer still stands Aaron @berryQuote:
Originally Posted by pd-xc-72464118
Has this thing seen the light of day yet? Tried their site but it's supposedly in maintenance mode.
The last tweet was way back in June as well.
You can see the mess on the kickstarter page.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...lay-c/comments
Anyone on here handed over their cash ?
Kickstarter should have much better protection against this sort of junkware. It's one thing to take a long time to deliver. I've read of projects that over-run by years. It's another to allow scams like this.
Attachment 6560
Anyone in WA have local awareness of this Aaron Hunter person? Whitepages says he lives here:
https://i.imgur.com/TiWi9Qb.png
Did you put money into this? Yeah you'd think there could be some sort of protection in place so what if you pay with paypal? Would you get your money back or is there a certain timeframe you can claim within. If something sounds to good to be true.......Quote:
Originally Posted by pd-xc-72464118
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Yeah it is a shame. I hope no one on here gave him money. After he didn't take up Dutchy's offer I was quite sure it was a fraud.
I'm in WA & quite happy to donate my car for a plug & play test...Quote:
Originally Posted by pd-xc-72464118
Only a news item from last year.. There was an YouTube video uploaded around 4 months ago...
https://www.perthnow.com.au/business...790e9ee2f4feab
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzp...orY9u3wII6CBuA
Sadly kickstarter is nothing but a scammers paradise or advertising for well established companies.
I refuse to use it anymore.
Shame on you @berry for scamming people, I really hope no one here was ripped by this :(
Think no-one took the bait considering his claims and how that box would work were just not possible @berry offer stip stands, give me a box and I'll do a before and after dyno
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