Would you use ethanol...

[180HOA]

Ethanol is primarily made from food crops. This means that as ethanol production increases, the food available to feed the world's population decreases.

Given that many of the world's population are already starving, I'm interested in how people feel about the use of ethanol as a fuel source. Do you have any moral issues with shifting from oil-based to ethanol-based fuel?

Is it right for wealthy countries to make poorer countries starve simply so we can continue to live wasteful lifestyles?

Would it make you think twice to know that if you were to fuel your car with ethanol, you'd be making someone starve?

Is all this enough to prevent you buying ethanol-based fuel?

Thoughts/feelings?

(I'm not after an 'ethanol eats your engine' discussion - I'm only asking about the social/moral aspect of using ethanol - thanks.)

[MatsHolden]

Yes I would use ethanol. Ethanol can be manufactured from basically any plant matter. It's not really an issue of taking up food resources to manufacture ethanol as a lot of it is made from waste plant matter such as the left over of crops after harvesting ie. sugar cane. So rather than just disposing or burning the waste, it can be used to make ethanol.

[EL BURITO]

No its supply and demand the weak die off and the strong suvive

so yes i would use it

[entice]

given that the majority of ethanol production here is from Sugar crops, and given that an increase in ethanol useage means more sugar plantations required, hence more oxygenation (plant life photosynthesis yadda yadda), and more plants means more poeple required to manage them, hence more jobs created locally...

are you catching my drift,,,
]
and given that we arent exactly in a shortage of sugar worldwide...

No. I dont have a single hesitation on ethanol useage wrt world food starvation.

I think it has NO impact on food source.

[MatsHolden]

I think it has NO impact on food source.

Exactly. It's really a lot of positives when it comes to ethanol.

[SSS_Hoon]

yes and i have used ethanol.

there is nothing wrong with it at all.

if there were more places around that sold E85 i would most likly convert to it.


SSS_Hoon

[jerrypufflewell]

I would use ethanol just because it is heavily subsidised lol, although the benefits are debatable.

[imay]

Gotta agree with sentiments so far . . . don't think that crops for ethanol production here in Australia would greatly impact on the "feed the world's starving" campaign. Let's face it, a large majority of the world's starving are in that situation because of government ad corporate corruption, war, domestic uprising, and greed from a much higher level than the average western motorist.

Less sugar in our coffee and more ethanol in our tanks won't change the world starvation problems. So, yes, I would use it as long as it could be proven to be beneficial to ALL sectors, including my pocket.

[SSS_Hoon]

ethanol is made from the waste of the crops so there would be no less sugar.


SSS_Hoon

[blueraven]

before anyone comments more about crops being used and that they should feed the worlds hungy first, let me tell you something.

i wa sborn in a place called geraldton and its one of WA"s major shipping ports for grain. back a few years ago a trip to see some relatives (and have seen this almost every time) you drive past MOUNTAINS of grain waiting to be sold and loaded onto ships. i cant tell you how many time i have seen these just rotting away/growing green with mould and then they are just dumped. i am talking millions of tonnes!!..remember about 15 years ago when we had such a surplus of heep the there was a govt subsidiary for farmers to just kill them and bury them for like $15 a head????? The reason part of the world are starving is because no one is willing to pay to get the food to those people.

and yeah, i would use ethanol, but i havent seen it in WA yet.

[mr corsa]

shell optimax extreme 100 octane with 5%ethanol i use it

[SSS_Hoon]

shell optimax extreme 100 octane with 5%ethanol i use it

exactly i was using there for awhile too its good as i ran more timing and got more power from it and even got more k's per tank too, but it aint worth the xtra 7cents on top of the 98 otherwise i would be still using it that is for sure.
and the fact that its 30mins away from me

SSS_Hoon

[MatsHolden]

E5 and E10 fuel isn't really what this is about though, more about the large scale manufacturing of Ethanol as a fuel in it's own right. I really want to see Ethanol looked at seriously as an alternative. As long as oil exists though it will be difficult for Ethanol to take off in it's own right.

[mr_sikma]

so does it damage the newer motors?

and is it voiding the warranty?

[jerrypufflewell]

No, I don't see why.

It damages older cars as the ethanol dissolves seals or something but new engines shouldn't use the plastic components that dissolved.

[btm]

Yes, i would have no concerns using it

[MatsHolden]

so does it damage the newer motors?

and is it voiding the warranty?

As of July Holden have said it is safe for all their cars to run on E10. The engines as they are at the moment wouldn't be able to run richer blends such as E85. The reason they can use this in Brazil is that the fuel system components have been made of stainless steel and other materials that will not be attacked by the ethanol.

[CJB]

I would use it too I guess.

I'm more interested in that fuel made from methane, or in other words, our waste :p

[180HOA]

Thanks for the input guys.

And I agree, it's good use where ethanol's being made from waste. But in the USA, most ethanol is made from corn. It also takes around 5 kg of corn to make 10 litres of ethanol. So say the average Aussie car uses maybe 40 litres of fuel in a week - that would equate to 100 kg of corn per week per car. Around 30% of the byproduct is useful as feed for livestock, but the net effect is food being used to run cars. Shell oil has even described making ethanol from food crops as immoral - though they still do it because everyone else does...

[jerrypufflewell]

immoral... as opposed to exhausting fossil fuels :p

[180HOA]

No its supply and demand the weak die off and the strong suvive

Mate, sorry but this one irked me. It's only by the grace of god/buddha/whoever that you were born into your life (and that applies to all of us), and not into poverty.

Strength has nothing to do with it. It's just luck.

[bill142]

The problem with Ethnol is that it is incredibly energy intensive to produce and the reason why it is cheaper the oil is because it is heavily subsidised by the government.

[jerrypufflewell]

The problem with Ethnol is that it is incredibly energy intensive to produce and the reason why it is cheaper the oil is because it is heavily subsidised by the government.

Indeedy, It is like photovoltaics- uses a huge amount of energy in production, mostly from fossil fuels etc. That's why I would use it, because it's subsidised. Actually, shock thought... If I buy ethanol am I not leading to the downfall of my society :confused:

[pred8r]

I wouldnt use it, dont know why, just feel 'funny' about it.....too many positives.....it just doesnt sit right for me.

Id rather be putting the acetone blend in instead.

[MatsHolden]

They've been talking about petrol prices in Parliament tonight and about forcing the oil compainies to use ethanol.

And Pred8r you have a very suspicious mind. lol

[McMessy]

if 5kg = 10L, 100kg would make 200L not sure where you got those figures...
The leftover byproduct is far higher in protein % than the original grain as feed and is more efficiently consumed by animals.
Australias ethanol will be more likely made from sorghum, as it is cheaper to buy per ton, has similar starch content, and is NOT used to feed the starving africans, so the so-called moral issue is a load of crud.

Our government seems to have no intention of helping to get a local ethanol production industry started. The Howard government has little interest, it seems, in local industry, and much prefers the prospect of short term gains from imports over helping its own.

My old man (a grain & cotton farmer) is investing in a project to put in an ethanol plant near Dalby, QLD, but the governments red tape is getting worse, not better, resulting in ridiculously blown out costs even before a sod has been turned on the site.

Go ethanol.

[jerrypufflewell]

The Howard government has little interest, it seems, in local industry, and much prefers the prospect of short term gains from imports over helping its own.

My old man (a grain & cotton farmer) is investing in a project to put in an ethanol plant near Dalby, QLD, but the governments red tape is getting worse, not better, resulting in ridiculously blown out costs even before a sod has been turned on the site.

Yes, they have their own interests in the local industry, so they don't want competition there.

[btm]

in the news this morning...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Coalition-backs-PM-over-fuel-excise/2006/08/08/1154802851379.html

Coalition backs PM over fuel excise

Prime Minister John Howard has won coalition backing for his view that the government can't afford to cut petrol taxes.

Mr Howard won joint party room endorsement for his refusal to cut excise on petrol, but was left in no doubt the government needed to do something to address high fuel prices.

Coalition MPs and senators used the special meeting to let Mr Howard know that petrol was a major issue in the electorate.

With a reduction in the fuel excise out of the question, there is a growing push from the coalition backbench for the government to seriously consider alternative fuel sources.

Nationals senator Barnaby Joyce wants the government to think about investing more in alternative fuel sources.

In the short-term, he wants the government to mandate ethanol content in petrol and to work on the development of alternative fuel sources as a longer-term strategy.

Senator Joyce said he left Monday's meeting hopeful Mr Howard was taking the backbench worries about petrol seriously.

"It was one of the few times I have left a meeting and felt there was some purpose to it," he said.

"The prime minister is definitely aware of the problem.

"He was certainly listening to the issue, sitting there taking notes and taking it all in."

© 2006 AAP

[NUTTTR]

I think *personally* everyone is looking at this from the wrong angle. The short of the matter is, ethanol, or any other 'burning' fuel source creates problems with pollution. Simple! What everyone is thinking of is the fact that their tank is costing more and more to fill, which is all well and good. But the real 'issue' with fossil fuels and them being used up in this (and many western) countries is the fact that all our daily electricity is made from it! Something like 65% of greenhouse gases in australia are from electricity production. Millions and millions of tonnes of coal. I'm all for cheaper petrol, it means i can drive more, however, i also don't MIND paying higher price for petrol as it means i just take public transport instead (and it's NOT easy for me to catch, nor that cheap, but it's half the price of driving!).

I think our focus should be getting our governments to look at rapidly upgrading our pubic (yes, intentional mistake) transport as it's screwed in sydney. There's simply not enough of it. I'd be happy for them to keep the fuel prices the same, or whatever they go to, IF they actually did something about public transport to make it more efficent and cost effective. Trains, etc, run on electricity, so maybe they should use ethanol or something like that for powering the power stations?
I dunno, the short of it is, no, i wouldn't use ethanol, because, in reality, it doesn't solve a single problem, except the government won't get as much money from fuel, so they'll just up the taxes as they admit they need the money, so we'll be back at square one. And the environment will still suffer, yadda, yadda, yadda

[CJB]

I hear what you are saying about public transport, and I have made this argument before... and will gladly make it again....

what happens to the people who live in remote areas where there is no public transport?

Ipswich isnt even really that remote, but we only have one way into Brisbane, and that's by train. Toowoomba isnt even connected to the main line yet (I hear there are plans to change that). So we all rely heavily on our cars.

There is always a loser to every solution it seems.

and it's all well and good to say they need to upgrade it, so there is transport, and so our buses run past 6pm here, but, just because we think they should, doesnt mean they will.

[rjastra]

I hear what you are saying about public transport, and I have made this argument before... and will gladly make it again....
what happens to the people who live in remote areas where there is no public transport?


That is another argument. The car has allowed people to sprawl out far past the normal boundaries of a city and commute to work.
So, basically, people have built their entire lifestyle based on the car and access to cheapish petrol.

Bummer, but tough is what I say. Sorta like people who whinge about rising interest rates on their overcapitalised homes (aka McMansions). Rates go up or down. That's life.

Seems to me that people are stupid. They learn lessons the hard way.

Rates go up because they buy to much on their mortgages. Sorta poetic.

[jerrypufflewell]

I agree

Apart from anything else we have to start being rational with our fuel use, as no system is going to be cheap & last forever.

[CJB]

That is another argument. The car has allowed people to sprawl out far past the normal boundaries of a city and commute to work.
So, basically, people have built their entire lifestyle based on the car and access to cheapish petrol.

Bummer, but tough is what I say. Sorta like people who whinge about rising interest rates on their overcapitalised homes (aka McMansions). Rates go up or down. That's life.

Seems to me that people are stupid. They learn lessons the hard way.

Rates go up because they buy to much on their mortgages. Sorta poetic.

But it's not as simple as just saying, everyone into the city. As it is, Brisbane is expecting a population growth, and we have no choice but to sprawl.

It's not a bad thing to "sprawl". I have watched Ipswich in the last ten years grow enormously, due to "sprawling".

An example, my Dad is a Plant Operator, and for years he worked in the Mines, he had no choice but to drive back and forward on his days off... Public transport would take too long - and even now he works at Esk, which is 50kms from us, 50kms north west, and public transport doesnt run there... so basically you're suggesting that we shouldnt rely on our cars for everything and if thats the case, then it's no job for him. Where can you get a Plant Operator position in the city?

Public transport isnt the answer for everything.

[jerrypufflewell]

No there are some situations where small auto use is essential (i.e mainly outside the city). But in areas where you have an established public transport system or where population density is high enough to support public transport, it should be used in preference.

[CJB]

No there are some situations where small auto use is essential (i.e mainly outside the city). But in areas where you have an established public transport system or where population density is high enough to support public transport, it should be used in preference.

Ok, I use my home town as another example... and that is the thing, EVERY city/town is different, in layout, and their public transport.

Ipswich, has a train line which runs from Rosewood into Brisbane City, and that's great for people who work in the city - as for Buses, we have buses that run, but they don't run after 6pm, and they are run very irregular.

The next best thing is a Cab, but that costs money.

I know they are working on it, but there are even some parts of this town that Buses don't go, and the train certainly doesnt - I will use Willowbank as an example... No trains there - and as for buses, yes they run to the Amberley servo, but thats about it, and again, they dont run past 6pm - so what about the fact that Willowbank speedway is a huge attraction, or the RAAF base, no transport out there, or the Railways Museum workshop.

But that's our town, and most other cities arent as behind as us - but I'm proving a point, that we HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RELY ON OUR CARS, and it only gets worse for people in Gatton, Dalby, Roma, Chinchilla.

And yes they choose to live out there, but a large majority of the population out there, have farms that they work from, so it's their livelyhood. If you turn around and say well they should be in the city where they can access more things, then what are they suppose to do? Someone has to be the farmer. :rolleyes:

But every city is different, and it's hard to explain what I mean and explain how things work here if you have never experienced it first hand.

[jerrypufflewell]

One word. Yass

That is all I shall say to rebut your POV that I am saying your case is not fair

[MatsHolden]

But public transport isn't really an option for everyone, even if they are living in a high density area with public transport. I know if I was to take public transport it would take me more like an hour and a half than 50-60 mins by car. And with all my design folios, prototypes etc etc well just isn't possible. Even if I didn't have a lot of equipment and stuff to carry I have to drive a few towns to the station at the end of the line anyway and try to get a park which is impossible. And yes I could catch the bus... but I don't have the time to muck around waiting for a bus that takes twice as long as a car to get to the station, then try and catch a train.

[jerrypufflewell]

Ok there are some exceptions. But those that can should.

[CJB]

One word. Yass

That is all I shall say to rebut your POV that I am saying your case is not fair

Ok, I dont understand what you are saying sorry dude...

I'm lost.

You shouldnt hide what you say in riddles.

[jerrypufflewell]

lol can't help it some times :) sorry 4 confusion. And oh noes I revealed my location to those outside the NSW forum :lol:

umm... lets try & summarise my thoughts. There are cases where it is impractical to use public transport (low pop density, lots of stuff to carry etc.). But there are also cases where it should be used, either because of the people who should be using it (i.e Canberra, excellent system but hugely underutilised), or because of mismanagement (i.e Mats case, not enough stops etc.).

Can we agree on that? :)

[NUTTTR]

I still stand by mine and now rjastra's POV too. The problem is that people have built their lives around the car when they should have thought 1 year ahead and realised that everywhere around every major city is being populated greatly. Not only the people, but also the councils, government, etc. Really, people overspent on their mortgages big time. They spent up real big. A lot of people are paying back 50-60% of their monthly income to their mortgage. What does this leave them with? Nothing! By overspending they pushed rates up, which in turn means you have less money to spend on petrol. Don't think that we are the ONLY ones affected by it, we aren't. Around the world this exact same arguement is going on. There's SO many people who drive to work when public transport would suit them 100%, just that they have a bit of spare money and would rather drive. This makes it harder for the people that DO HAVE TO drive for whatever reason. If public transport had been allowed to grow faster than it did, well, it might be a different story. Hell, i'm 40 min drive from the city or 1hr 10min train ride plus a 2 min car drive (it's like 3km's to the station!), it's only 30km from here to the city, but it takes stupid times to get there. However i'd rather spend $34/wk on a train than $60++ on fuel. People have to get used to things like public transport... Petrol has been on the rise for years. I remember about 15 years ago how cheap it used to be, and it's been going up slowly the WHOLE time. Surely people have to open their eyes and realise price rise is coming? Of course not, we live in the western world where we can choose what reality we live!
A bit off subject :)
However, i want to see ethanol, etc developed for use to power powerstations, etc. Like has been said, it uses *SO* much fossil fuel to convert to ethanol, that the only intermediate thing we notice is the fuel excise. Once it ramps up a bit and becomes popular, there's gonna be SOME tax on it! And it'll start all over again :)

Anyway, sorry if i offended anyone, but truth be told, those who CAN catch public transport should. it's cheaper, significantly, and gives you more to spend on your over-inflated mortgage :)

[jerrypufflewell]

I can see what you mean.
But I would buy as much eth as possible if it were available in my area, just because it should be cheaper due to subsidies.
However are some very interesting things happening in other areas (e.g solar) which I would prefer to be developed as an alternative, because I honestly don't believe the bruhaha about ethanol.

[Assada]

Astra Diesel's out. I wonder how many people will switch..

[MatsHolden]

lol can't help it some times :) sorry 4 confusion. And oh noes I revealed my location to those outside the NSW forum :lol:

umm... lets try & summarise my thoughts. There are cases where it is impractical to use public transport (low pop density, lots of stuff to carry etc.). But there are also cases where it should be used, either because of the people who should be using it (i.e Canberra, excellent system but hugely underutilised), or because of mismanagement (i.e Mats case, not enough stops etc.).

Can we agree on that? :)

I follow your points now... ;) lol

Also standard Unleaded is apparantly going to hit $1.80 a litre over the next week or so according to tonights news, so fill up now whilst it's cheap.

[jerrypufflewell]

:o I don't watch news much so that's a shock. Oh well more business for Transborder :) They were already considering putting in another evening service Canberra-Yass, hopefully we get a 6pm one :D

[NUTTTR]

The diesel is AWESOME on fuel. I drove my normal way in it for 150km's, avg 6.3L/100

My SRi on the same driving is averaging 11L/100. However, it's not enough difference to make paying 10k for the car!

[jerrypufflewell]

lol buy a 1.4 beep beep

[SSS_Hoon]

shell optimax extreme 100 octane with 5%ethanol i use it


u mean for the 5 mins your car was actually on the road for right


:lol:


SSS_Hoon

[mr corsa]

u mean for the 5 mins your car was actually on the road for right


:lol:


SSS_Hoon
and this meaning

[MatsHolden]

and this meaning

That your car use a lot of fuel I assumed...

[SSS_Hoon]

and this meaning


excactly what i said that your car was not on the road for very long was it....



SSS_Hoon

[Opelise]

Mate, sorry but this one irked me. It's only by the grace of god/buddha/whoever that you were born into your life (and that applies to all of us), and not into poverty.

Strength has nothing to do with it. It's just luck.

That's utter bollocks, but this is a car forum and not a place for such debate.

:p

[mr corsa]

excactly what i said that your car was not on the road for very long was it....



SSS_Hoon

i was driving it today

[SSS_Hoon]

i was driving it today


well there you go eh.....


SSS_Hoon