Introducing the new HOLDEN EPICA

[Red AH SRI T]

This is the new Epica, the replacement for the Vectra

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D8HAGAeDUg&search=GM%20General%20Motors%252%200Chevy%20Chevro let%20GMC%20Corvette%20Cars%20Auto%25%2020Autos%20 Escalade%20Cadillac


http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=17628&d=1147542633


Looks good side on

http://i1.tinypic.com/mj1dvr.jpg

http://tribuna.com.ua/p/temp/news/2006/03/03/new_chevy_daewoo_epica_mord.jpg

http://www.auto55.be/content/fotos/mei2006/chevrolet1-2.jpg

http://tribuna.com.ua/p/temp/news/2006/03/03/new_chevy_daewoo_epica1_big.jpg

http://autotelegraaf.nl/vanonzeredactie/images/39779.1.gen.jpg

[Bernard Siong]

where is it made?
it looks really nice
i actually like it

[MatsHolden]

Made in Korea by GMDAT (GM Daewoo). Not a bad looking vehicle, although I think it could date quickly.

[Alfonzo]

mmmm I'm still bitter, but I guess it'll suffice.

Size wise the Vectra was getting up to the Commodore size, but the price issue was causing problems. So this car will have to be cheaper so as to not step on the Commodore's toes (again), and it'll also have to be perfectly sized so it doesn't steal sales from the Commodore (being a large-ish sized car for a cheaper price). So built to a price, not to quality.

It'll be interesting to see it work.

edit: hope that makes sense. I've had a few.

[bill142]

Those headlights look like they've been stripped from a 5 series BMW.

[MatsHolden]

Those headlights look like they've been stripped from a 5 series BMW.

They do a bit, particularly the return of the headlight down the side of the front quarter panel, the snakey viper fort of look. I can see a hint of Toyota/Lexus, SAAB and Honda styling cues in certain parts of the vehicle.

[pred8r]

looks, goes and built like a 'tosca' too:p

[one2have]

Looks ok, but doesn't excite me as much as this:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8879/vec2bs.jpg

[MatsHolden]

Looks ok, but doesn't excite me as much as this:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8879/vec2bs.jpg

True, but you'd need to go the sedan! Dynamics a lot nicer.:)

[Slimcraigie]

Looks like you Ozzies are getting the S**t end of the stick, must cost too much to send our Opels down under now. Just hope we dont get all this Jap Crap relabeled as Vauxhall & Opel up here :mad:

[Red AH SRI T]

nah, ur lucky Slim, it will be sold as Chevrolet in the UK & Europe, the only GMDAT car you will get is the new ANANTRA or whatever its called.

The Epica runs a 2.0 four and a 2.5 Straight 6.

Expect a similar pricing program to the Viva, compare viva to corolla and see what i mean. Base corolla starts at just under $20,000 base Viva starts at Under $18,000 but has a **** load more equipment.

Holden will do a similar thing against the camry.

[InsaneAsylum]

looks like a freakin camry

[MK]

looks ok, if the price is low (price bracket of Sonta and the like) it will sell (people who cannot afford Commodore) however if the price is anything close to the price of Commodore it might have a hard time selling... and why no 4 cyl engine on offer?
Toyota Camry has one and i believe it sells ok since the price of petrol went up...Holden should have a 4cyl engine on offer (2.2L or 2.4L) with this model.

[Red AH SRI T]

Engine Choices Overseas:


2.0 Straight 6 & 2.5 Straight 6


I know we will get the 2.5 I6 but i don't know about the smaller one, maybe we will get a 4 cyl instead?



PIMPED OUT!!

http://www.americancarfans.com/news/2060301.011/2060301.011.1L.jpg

[MK]

Old age mate, yes you wrote it in your earlier thread, i miss read it, sorry.

In this case it will sell to all the Australian families who want the safety and comfort of a mid size family car but cannot afford huge fuel bills... actually will be something i might suggest (instead of Barina\Kalos) to my mother and her husband...

[MK]

nah, ur lucky Slim, it will be sold as Chevrolet in the UK & Europe, the only GMDAT car you will get is the new ANANTRA or whatever its called.

The Epica runs a 2.0 four and a 2.5 Straight 6.

Expect a similar pricing program to the Viva, compare viva to corolla and see what i mean. Base corolla starts at just under $20,000 base Viva starts at Under $18,000 but has a **** load more equipment.

Holden will do a similar thing against the camry.


4 cyl engine, camry size, lots of equipment, affordable price, Holden marketing and... side mirror blinkers! - it will sell OK.

[Red AH SRI T]

hahaha, i did actually write that the 2.0 would be a four, but after further research i have found that both engines are in fact Straight 6's.

Wow, such a small capacity 6!!!

Wonder whether Holden will keep it this way, or dump the 2.0 I6 for a 2.0 or 2.2 4 Cyl of some sort?

[MK]

Yes, that is a small capacity six... i had owned once Eunos 30X with its 1.8 V6 engine, what a heap of junk!
in the Holdens case the 2.0 is a straight six and might not be as terrible as the 1.8 v6 i used to know (mine loved being revved up) in this case straight six is a different story (i believe)

will be Ok on fuel eceonomy i hope.
Thats what Holden need, mid size car (to compete with Sonata and Camry) with good fuel consumption...and lots of storage space HA!

Mitsubishi are thinking of bringing back the 4 cyl engine in the 380...

[01CDsedan]

You guys will run me out of town for slander or something, but I actually like it a lot. And I think it looks better than the Vectra.

Would have thought it would get the 2.8 or 3.2 HFV6 rather than carrying on with the Daewoo straight six, but there you go. There's apparently a diesel version on the way for Europe - wonder if we might see that here too?

Anyone want to take bets on the price? With the 380 now starting at $27,990 and the Camry at $25k or thereabouts, what are my odds on fully loaded with equipment at $24,990?

[CJB]

I like it.

It looks nice! :)

[one2have]

You guys will run me out of town for slander or something, but I actually like it a lot. And I think it looks better than the Vectra.


I find that statement quite offensive.. Its a Daewoo man!

I can't believe people are liking the shape of this car? It looks very cheap. And a 2.0L straight six???

Please..

[tmov81]

looks like a freakin camry
thats what i thought...

vectra looks a lot classier... to me this has no personality... just another car...

perfect purchase for a boring person... if i was shopping in this category, i would go the new hyundai sonata... 3.3L with 173kw and more aggressive styling...

ah well another opel bites the dust...

[NUTTTR]

Each to their own.... But it looks like a heap of s***... Not sure i like it at all, although it may look better on the road, etc... One thing i hate about all these cheaper cars is their interior quality resembles that of recycled ice cream containers and the paint finish resembles that of a 2 year old with a brush... Still, if they develop a CHEAP car that goes well and lasts 20 years and still looks OK, then i'm all for it, but if these daewee's make it 20 years, i'll change my name :)

[Red AH SRI T]

The Sonata's styling is hardly agressive, or original for that matter.

Mix of VZ Commodore and Honda Accord Seppo anyone?

[MatsHolden]

No reason Daewoo's shouldn't last 20 years. Only reason that they won't is because they are a cheaper car they are bought by people who tend to neglect them. But that's like any car, if you don't service it regularly and treat it like rubbish then it won't last.

[Poogene2001]

did someone say Subaru Liberty at the front end?
or was it Nissan Maxima from the side?
Atleast they are copying good cars....

[tmov81]

The Sonata's styling is hardly agressive, or original for that matter.

Mix of VZ Commodore and Honda Accord Seppo anyone?
didnt say it was original...

but would rather a korean car that has copied a commo in looks than a korean car that has copied a camry in looks :p

and as I said, the sonata has 'more aggressive' styling... that is compared to this crappy daewoo it looks more aggressive...

and even if you think the daewoo looks better... the hyundai is 173kw :p

[Wraith]

looks like a freakin camry

I agree LOL, looks like a damn Toyota............

[one2have]

I suggest Camroo, if it makes it downunder - ha ha.

[stake]

And a 2.0L straight six???

Please..

What's wrong with a 2.0L straight six. The Lexus IS200 is a 2.0L six. It might not set the world on fire with power but it's smooth as and likes to rev.

BTW the Tosca/Epica isn't such a bad looking thing

[one2have]

What's wrong with a 2.0L straight six. The Lexus IS200 is a 2.0L six. It might not set the world on fire with power but it's smooth as and likes to rev.

BTW the Tosca/Epica isn't such a bad looking thing

I guess I should find out a little more about the engine specs before I dis it. The IS200 is a great looking car, but is gutless in a straightline (add s/charger and its a different story).

Regrading the looks of this Camroo, doesn't tickle my fancy in the slightest. Horses for courses I guess..

[stake]

The IS200 is a great looking car, but is gutless in a straightline (add s/charger and its a different story).

It's on the agenda if I can convince the wife...

[one2have]

It's on the agenda if I can convince the wife...

Do it man..

There are quite a few going around - there may even be a factory Supercharger kit available locally.

[cyclonic]

What an ugly piece of s***.

Sure as hell wouldn't want one of those in my driveway unless it was given to me.

These awful cars completely vindicate my decision to buy an XC Barina before they switched to the GMDAT version (TK Series). I honestly doubt the Epica will be any better.

Look like Holden is being dragged down by head office in Detroit again, giving us rubbish cars instead of quality. When will GM learn? Or will they have to go broke to figure it out?

The average consumer won't care anyway, but their reputation will linger much longer and be much harder to repair.

[Red AH SRI T]

This car will be nothing like the TK Barina or JF Viva

They are both Daewoo Motor Corporation cars ie CRAP

The new Epica and CAPTIVA are both designed under GMDAT management and will be much better than anything the old daewoo ever did

[MatsHolden]

Exactly Black AH CDX. GMDAT is a completely revamped unit. Cars such as the Epica and Captiva will be much better quality than the current Daewoo vehicles.

[bill142]

The design might be better, but will the build quality.

[cyclonic]

Exactly my point. The design may be better, but the materials and overall build quality will be well below par. In that sense, its a step backwards. Doesn't matter how good the car is.

Its upsetting, but on the other hand, we don't have to buy the car do we?

[one2have]

Build Quality aside.

It looks awful - Kinda like a confused pregnant seal. No offence to any seals out there.

[RapidSRi]

Less sexy than a Lexus, more sexy than a Camry though, which is what is looks like from the corner of your eye.

The Chev version is much meaner looking though

[Red AH SRI T]

Exactly my point. The design may be better, but the materials and overall build quality will be well below par. In that sense, its a step backwards. Doesn't matter how good the car is.

Its upsetting, but on the other hand, we don't have to buy the car do we?


How do you know it WILL be below par, have you seen either of these cars in person yet?

[cyclonic]

How do you know it WILL be below par, have you seen either of these cars in person yet?

Good point and i'll concede that, however if past form is any guide....

I guess my whole point on the issue is that cost aside, I think that sourcing cars from GMDAT instead of Opel is a serious mistake, especially when Holden is well regarded in this country. The bad press already received by the TK Barina is tarnishing Holden's hard fought reputation - something that happened to GM back in the 80's in the USA. GM has struggled to recover since, and the only unit of its group that seems capable of designing, engineering and manufacturing quality small cars is Opel.

However, if it does come down to a cost/profitability issue, then by all means build the Opel designs in Korea. Just raise the quality so its equal across the board.

And thats all from me on this issue..

[01CDsedan]

Exactly my point. The design may be better, but the materials and overall build quality will be well below par. In that sense, its a step backwards. Doesn't matter how good the car is.


Materials and overall build quality on the ZC Vectra? My parents ZC is barely three years old, with 33,000km on it, and the plastic inside is looking very daggy indeed. Cheap, cheap, cheap. On a lot of the surfaces they touch regularly, the outer layer of the plastic has sort of peeled off...

[MatsHolden]

Materials and overall build quality on the ZC Vectra? My parents ZC is barely three years old, with 33,000km on it, and the plastic inside is looking very daggy indeed. Cheap, cheap, cheap. On a lot of the surfaces they touch regularly, the outer layer of the plastic has sort of peeled off...

Must've been a bad batch, slipped through quality control, does happen. Should have takin it to Holden whilst under warranty.

[Red AH SRI T]

Good point and i'll concede that, however if past form is any guide....

I guess my whole point on the issue is that cost aside, I think that sourcing cars from GMDAT instead of Opel is a serious mistake, especially when Holden is well regarded in this country. The bad press already received by the TK Barina is tarnishing Holden's hard fought reputation - something that happened to GM back in the 80's in the USA. GM has struggled to recover since, and the only unit of its group that seems capable of designing, engineering and manufacturing quality small cars is Opel.

However, if it does come down to a cost/profitability issue, then by all means build the Opel designs in Korea. Just raise the quality so its equal across the board.

And thats all from me on this issue..


yeah but you CAN'T go from past form. The old Daewoo and the new GMDAT share nothing except for where the cars are made.

You can't base judgement on these new GM DESIGNED BUT GM DAEWOO BUILT vechiles based on what happened in the old company.

I hate the viva and the TK barina, however i'm willing to give the Captiva and Epica the benifit of the doubt and wait and see how good, or bad, they actually are.

[MatsHolden]

I hate the viva and the TK barina, however i'm willing to give the Captiva and Epica the benifit of the doubt and wait and see how good, or bad, they actually are.

Yeh, because the TK Barina and Viva are vehicles from the old generation Daewoo. Would have been better if Holden could have held off bringing in the GM Daewoo products until they were all designed and built under the GMDAT guise.

[GeeeAus]

Good point and i'll concede that, however if past form is any guide....

I guess my whole point on the issue is that cost aside, I think that sourcing cars from GMDAT instead of Opel is a serious mistake, especially when Holden is well regarded in this country. The bad press already received by the TK Barina is tarnishing Holden's hard fought reputation - something that happened to GM back in the 80's in the USA. GM has struggled to recover since, and the only unit of its group that seems capable of designing, engineering and manufacturing quality small cars is Opel.

However, if it does come down to a cost/profitability issue, then by all means build the Opel designs in Korea. Just raise the quality so its equal across the board.

And thats all from me on this issue..


If it were truly tarnishing Holden's good name is would show in the sales. And it doesn't!

I agree with the decision to ditch Opel, it's too expensive and has too many of its' own issues to contend with. Took the dash out of our Vecta on the weekend to replace the A/C evaporator. Holden says you can do it in the engine bay, but you can’t unless you’re Gumby. My arms just don’t work that way. My God, what rubbish the good looking plastic hides. No wonder they have electronic issues everywhere. Mine has a few less now, well for now I should say….. 

Holden can import more units for less money in the same time. Korea is a stones throw away compared with Europe. Shipping a new vehicle is not a cheap exercise. Killing Opel has cost us drive quality, but it was a business choice, and to be honest it will likely be the only thing that can save GM now. Lets hope it's not too little too late. Opel has been making its’ own share of rubbish, take your car apart, only then will you see what I mean.

GeeeAus

[RapidSRi]

If it were truly tarnishing Holden's good name is would show in the sales. And it doesn't!




The effect of quality issues do not become apparent until years later so if there are any issues it should be afew years before any damage to brand reputation. For Holden that would be very difficult anyway, but Holden are smart they know it's easier to sell crummier cars for cheaper, on the loyalty of their good name, rather than fighting to get better than average sales on premium cars.

[GeeeAus]

The effect of quality issues do not become apparent until years later so if there are any issues it should be afew years before any damage to brand reputation. For Holden that would be very difficult anyway, but Holden are smart they know it's easier to sell crummier cars for cheaper, on the loyalty of their good name, rather than fighting to get better than average sales on premium cars.

When the JB Camira was released back in 1982 with no Internet, no SMS, no mobile phone network, greatly reduced radio and TV options; it took less than 1 YEAR for Holden and the Camira to develop a reputation they could have well done without.

Things have moved on quite a bit. If it were sheer crap, we’d know, and so would Holden..... because nobody would buy it anymore.

It doesn't take as long as you might think.

You know the Camira was actually a good car that Holden, yes Holden didn’t put together correctly. It deviated from the car’s original intentions with its awful Varajet II carburettor and vacuum based emission control system. Once the customer backlash was felt, Holden jumped to the task of reimplimenting the parts it fudged. Less than 3 years latter, the Camira was a good car, with great power, handling and value, but it was too late. Holden hasn’t forgotten, and neither has the public.

Do you know what the best, yes BEST part about the new Viva, essentially, it’s a Camira…..

Holden has made lemonade and they aren’t alone.

The JR and JS Vectra were terrible. It doesn’t matter how well it handles when it doesn’t unlock with the key fob, looses its display readout segments, gums up its transmission selector switch, develops a knocking noise in the valve train after 100,00 Kms, needs constant idle air control valve cleaning (because the dealers deny the existence of a field remedy that corrects this issue.

This is not to mention the Delphi V5 A/C compressors that fail early, the timing belts that break causing head reworks to become necessary, the exhausts that rust, never seen a car do this quite as young as Vectra.

Also not to mention the ignition lock and central locking mechanism failures. The premature front shock absorber and hence tyre wear. The poor fitment of the steering column and retention clamp for the intermediate shaft. The switches that feel great and go clink, clink feeling quality, only to have the stupid LED fail, requiring a new switch (unless you butcher it).

Opel make **** too.

That’s GM for you. Considering a scary number of parts are common to all small GM made cars, like Daewoo. A cheap GM made car at least removes the insult from the injury.

All these faults are WELL KNOWN Vectra faults. Not limited to my experience, although our car has experienced ALL the above. A Daewoo JUST COULDN’T BE ANY WORSE PERIOD….. I love to drive it, I hate owning it….. The JE Camira we have from 1987, that shares much of the Daewoos design elements (at least mechanically and rear suspension wise, is so much better to own. Its reliable, its alright to drive and its cheap to sort out. Not bad from a car that’s a lemon, competing with a car that 10 years younger and apparently isn’t a lemon.

With ALL GM made cars I say… Caveat emptor. (May the buyer be ware).

GeeeAus

[180HOA]

It's all well and good to argue the merit of the cars on reliability alone. No matter what you buy or what you spend, you can have reliability issues. It's always a gamble. I also don't care if the cars a bit less refined that some others out there, as long as I like it overall.

But those crash tests... For me, this is THE issue with the Daewoo-sourced cars. I don't care how cheap they are, I wouldn't buy one and would advise people I care about not to.

There's no point putting airbags in the car if it has the structural integrity of a wet sock.

[GeeeAus]

It's all well and good to argue the merit of the cars on reliability alone. No matter what you buy or what you spend, you can have reliability issues. It's always a gamble. I also don't care if the cars a bit less refined that some others out there, as long as I like it overall.

But those crash tests... For me, this is THE issue with the Daewoo-sourced cars. I don't care how cheap they are, I wouldn't buy one and would advise people I care about not to.

There's no point putting airbags in the car if it has the structural integrity of a wet sock.

There's little danger of crashing a car that you can't keep on the road.....

[mfl]

Sorry, but Holden have lost me as a customer. Yes, my vectra has some problems, but wasn’t a big a problem as my last 2 Commodores.

Selling Korean cars without the dynamics of the European cars and using the Holden label to give the poor quality some legitimacy just doesn’t cut it for me. Sure it might work for the bean counters, but it doesn’t work for the people who like driving cars.

The Vectra is up for replacement soon and there is nothing Holden builds at the moment to replace it. The company car is a CDX Astra due for replacement next year; the choice is a base model Viva or a Falcon sedan. Don’t think I risk the family in a Viva with no ABS.

- MFL

[bill142]

How do you know it WILL be below par, have you seen either of these cars in person yet?

GMDAT don't own any factories yet. They are all still in the control of Daewoo Motor Corp and are essentially a supplier/sub-contractor to GMDAT.

The first GMDAT factory is not due untill 2008 when they begin to take control of the Daewoo controled factories. But with GM's current financial state I wouldn't be surprised if that time frame gets pushed out a bit further.

[one2have]

Most buy a vehicle to get them from A to B. the Epica will probably be good value for money and would come in a variety of colours for all those motoring "Enthusiasts".

I have never liked Korean made vehicles. They are cheap, nasty and above all - uninspiring. I doubt you will feel special driving the Epica.

Even with GMDAT, you'd be naive to expect the quality to be any better than the best Daewoo currently has to offer. I feel sorry for any current model Barina/Viva owners out there.

[rjastra]

The company car is a CDX Astra due for replacement next year; the choice is a base model Viva or a Falcon sedan. Don’t think I risk the family in a Viva with no ABS.


Are you pulling our leg? How does a $18000 Viva be an equivalent car for at least a $30000 (fleet pricing) Falcon. Please explain. You work for a weird company it seems.

[Red AH SRI T]

DOCS (department of community services) just purchased a fleet of Viva sedans through us, all without ABS

[one2have]

DOCS (department of community services) just purchased a fleet of Viva sedans through us, all without ABS

http://www.ajovalo.net/Esitteet/E75Viva.jpg

[Red AH SRI T]

LMFAO!!!!

that's a coupe though :p

[tmov81]

Are you pulling our leg? How does a $18000 Viva be an equivalent car for at least a $30000 (fleet pricing) Falcon. Please explain. You work for a weird company it seems.
hahaha i was thinking the same thing...

[tmov81]

DOCS (department of community services) just purchased a fleet of Viva sedans through us, all without ABS
how many private companies are buying viva's :p

the government doesnt give a rats about its employees :p would rather save the money and hope that if the employee dies in an accident they can blame the other driver or the govt employee...

[one2have]

Actually I wouldn't have a problem with that if they were politicians.

Should remove the brakes altogether in that case hahahaha.:D :D :D

[Red AH SRI T]

So, The first Epica arrived at work today and i had a chance to drive it.

First thing i noticed was its nose heavy feel. Then how very smooth and refined the drive was. The angine transmission combo is quiet nice. A little slow on take off but once it builds steam its quiet surprising. Steered quiet niceley, and nice feel to the steering. The suspension is quiet soft, and im sure this car will attract to its target market of Camry buyers ie people waiting to die and people who just don't care.

[Red AH SRI T]

Ok, so we registered the Epica today. I've left the SRiT at work and bought the Epica home for the nite. After going for a bit of a drive I've grown to like it more than in my very first drive. Obviously driving it a longer distance is better than just around the block.

Will post more observations later.

[Greggy]

I think it looks alot like the Honda Accord - the wheels look far too small for the arches...and as some one mentioned above (a few pages) the Beemer head lights.....Jury is still out.......

[Greggy]

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o166/greggy_2007/ScreenHunter_537.jpg

Or is it just me..........(the accord / Epica similarity) ??

[rjastra]

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o166/greggy_2007/ScreenHunter_537.jpg

Or is it just me..........(the accord / Epica similarity) ??

Its just you...

[Red AH SRI T]

I've sold 2 already, and we've only had it since Friday.

[05CDXi]

Looks ok, but doesn't excite me as much as this:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8879/vec2bs.jpg
Absolutely....I have looked at the Epica and there is no way I am parting with my CDXi for one of those. Holden have just forced me to look for another brand...

[Greggy]

Its just you...


:o.......just me it is then..

Sounds like they are going to sell quite well then.....

[GreyRex]

I drove both Epica models at Lang Lang last year and once again... not for me. Its quiet and has a 'supple' ride, but it's a step down. Like all the rest of these new imports, it seems to be MORE what the majority want.

[CJB]

I've sold 2 already, and we've only had it since Friday.
what? we haven't even received one in stock yet! lol

But out in the Holden showroom they have an EPICA DVD on replay.


soooooooooo annoying :p


meh, I like them.

[Red AH SRI T]

We got our Epica DVD today, I'll be popping it into the DVD player at work on Saturday

[cyclonic]

I wonder if they'll have one of these at the Perth International Motor Show? I'll look for the hordes of retirees and fleetowners hanging around it.

[Tfer]

I wonder if they'll have one of these at the Perth International Motor Show? I'll look for the hordes of retirees and fleetowners hanging around it.

Muwahahahahahaha..... funny Leo! :D But sadly, probably true.... oh I am sure fleet owners will love this drivel :rolleyes:

Seriously what a bag of South Korean shit :eek: and if ever the Veccy had to go, then it will be for another European brand :clap: (bring on Audi)

[Red AH SRI T]

Yeah I think a lot of Fleet drivers will be recieveing these cars. We had a guy from Reece plumbing come in on the weekend and he said their company was changing from Astra Wagons to mostly Epicas.

BTW, Can you believe this car has an option for Genuine 18 inch Chrome wheels?!

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modelaccessories?modelid=31000


I can see all the Epica's lined up at the bowls club now with their chromies!

Holden Epica - Go Peacefully

[GreyRex]

Oh no... who are they kidding?

[Tfer]

I can see all the Epica's lined up at the bowls club now with their chromies!

Holden Epica - Go Peacefully

Muwahahahahaha love it :D

[cdxi]

Went to the Motor Show in Perth yesterday......and even though I'm not a retiree or a fleet buying bean-counter, I had a look at the Epica CDXi and CDX just so that I feel better placed to comment on it.

Well, I suppose I was fairly underwhelmed.

In terms of external appearance, it doesn't strike me as a well balanced design. The curvature of the headlight design doesn't sit well with the sharp upward sweeping angle of the rear light cluster in the rear fender. The overall effect is inoffensive in the Toyota white-goods mould.

The interior is a better effort, but I was surprised at the flatness of the dash panel - not so evident in photographs. The instrumentation is generic GM-DAT and ergonomics are not bad. Certainly better than some of the Euro brands on display at the show and way in front of some of the new Chrysler/Dodge products. Epica's fit and finish was also streets ahead of the American brands. The new Sebring was just awful and the Dodge Caliber not much better.

The Epica is a very safe looking vehicle - nothing adventurous, seductive or threatening about it and I imagine the driving experience will be similar. It is well equipped, well appointed and well, boring.

The Vectra C may not actually have made a great showroom impression during its time in Australia - it is a love it/hate it design whereas the Epica is pretty much beige-on-wheels. At least the Vectra generates emotion of some kind!

I reckon Australian Vectras could have done with some interior pizazz - something to relieve the endless grey on grey in every model. Too late for that anyway.....

The Epica won't outsell anything currently on the market. What it will do is generate more sales for Holden within this segment, something the Vectra failed to do for a range of reasons. I spoke with the Ford people about the Mondeo and they're champing at the bit for it. It will be coming in sedan, wagon, petrol and diesel and in 3 equipment levels.

If Ford can do this, Holden could import a few Insignias in the same container as the Tigras, new Corsas and....oh...sorry. Just dreamin'.....

Epica. Not an Opel

[cyclonic]

Went to the Motor Show in Perth yesterday......and even though I'm not a retiree or a fleet buying bean-counter, I had a look at the Epica CDXi and CDX just so that I feel better placed to comment on it.

Well, I suppose I was fairly underwhelmed.

In terms of external appearance, it doesn't strike me as a well balanced design. The curvature of the headlight design doesn't sit well with the sharp upward sweeping angle of the rear light cluster in the rear fender. The overall effect is inoffensive in the Toyota white-goods mould.

The interior is a better effort, but I was surprised at the flatness of the dash panel - not so evident in photographs. The instrumentation is generic GM-DAT and ergonomics are not bad. Certainly better than some of the Euro brands on display at the show and way in front of some of the new Chrysler/Dodge products. Epica's fit and finish was also streets ahead of the American brands. The new Sebring was just awful and the Dodge Caliber not much better.

The Epica is a very safe looking vehicle - nothing adventurous, seductive or threatening about it and I imagine the driving experience will be similar. It is well equipped, well appointed and well, boring.

The Vectra C may not actually have made a great showroom impression during its time in Australia - it is a love it/hate it design whereas the Epica is pretty much beige-on-wheels. At least the Vectra generates emotion of some kind!

I reckon Australian Vectras could have done with some interior pizazz - something to relieve the endless grey on grey in every model. Too late for that anyway.....

The Epica won't outsell anything currently on the market. What it will do is generate more sales for Holden within this segment, something the Vectra failed to do for a range of reasons. I spoke with the Ford people about the Mondeo and they're champing at the bit for it. It will be coming in sedan, wagon, petrol and diesel and in 3 equipment levels.

If Ford can do this, Holden could import a few Insignias in the same container as the Tigras, new Corsas and....oh...sorry. Just dreamin'.....

Epica. Not an Opel

I tend to agree. I went on Friday and came away with the same impression.

Too bad I lost my (rather expensive) camera on the Holden stand.

[rjastra]

The important thing is that Holden have a competent car at the right price for the market.

They also have a manufacturer that can respec a car quite quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to see a diesel version within 6-12months (like the captiva).

Talking about Captiva... how long before we get a 3.6L V6 version? Daewoo already ship a version to the USA as the Saturn Vue Redline.

[Calibrated]

At the end of the day, Holden has just proved that they are willing to give a big F*CK YOU to their consumers, by trying to improve their own profits.

and yes, the company does need to stay afloat. but they are going about it in completely the wrong way. New Car sales are not as high as the numbers of vehicles they bring in. IF they used their heads, and brought in smaller amounts of the right cars, they would be better off financially.
Intead, they bring in a crap load, and they sit on the floors around the county just wasting. If someone is REALLY keen on a car, they will wait 2-3 weeks for delivery.
I say , they should AT LEAST have the Opels on a request order.

[cdxi]

The important thing is that Holden have a competent car at the right price for the market.

They also have a manufacturer that can respec a car quite quickly. I wouldn't be surprised to see a diesel version within 6-12months (like the captiva).

Talking about Captiva... how long before we get a 3.6L V6 version? Daewoo already ship a version to the USA as the Saturn Vue Redline.

I agree - Holden is aiming at a price conscious buyer who is looking for a well specced and comfortable vehicle. No doubt the Epica will also score a minimum of 4 ANCAP stars so the safety aspect is well covered.

And you know what? The Epica probably will succeed where the Vectra failed. It is a competent vehicle, it is well priced and as you suggest rjastra, it's sourced from a company that can respond quickly to change.

If the Mondeo is to be launched for sale in October with a diesel in the range, then the Epica will more than likely have one in September.

I wonder if there will be an additional bodystyle for Epica? A wagon in the works maybe?

And a 3.6 Captiva.... sounds interesting. It would probably be in MaXX spec, although a Captiva V Series wouldn't go astray.....

[rjastra]

Intead, they bring in a crap load, and they sit on the floors around the county just wasting. If someone is REALLY keen on a car, they will wait 2-3 weeks for delivery.
I say , they should AT LEAST have the Opels on a request order.


2-3 weeks to order!! try months and months. Some people have no idea i reckon ;)

Holden have proven (well the CONSUMER has) that they,the public, don't want $40K Opels (ie Vectras). And judging by sales, the Public aren't really interested in mid $30K turbo astras or $30K turbo diesel Astras. All the cars YOU want. Puts HOlden in a hard corner when the cars YOU think people want are actually aren't want the buying PUBLIC want to buy.

To bring home the pricing problem that Holden has with its Opel inventory... the top of the range Epica is very close in price to the new Astra SRi 2.2L

[Calibrated]

I was at Eagers Holden today. Had a look at the Epica..what a poor effort at a car. as boring and bland as possible. the lights just dont fit with the car, and the wheels are just cost savers, as they dont match the car at all.

The salesguys there all agree with me on Holdens new take of GayPoo's instead of Opels.
Its shocking.

And btw, the general public are a) too lazy to put effort into researching a car before they buy it. b) on the dole, so buying a car with the governments money. c) have less than no interest in what they buy, as long as they get from a-b.

[GreyRex]

The comments on this topic are getting a little harsh and I can understand people's views. My feelings are very much the same. But what I have come to understand is that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Holden is not a premium brand, specifically in the lighter segments... and people know this. Unfortunately they are now giving the MAJORITY of people what they want. We know that they were on to a good thing with most of the Opel products, but as they said... people did not buy them enough to make them profitable. Public perception about a company is not easy to change. Unfortunately Holden's is cheap, fairly reliable and a bit of a maaaate mentality (not all of course, but i have worked for them, so I can vouch for this). The only way to deal with the Barina/Viva/Epica/Captiva situation is to just buy something else

[Shaun]

There is nothing wrong with the Epica. I think it looks quite nice. The dealership i have just ordered my VXR From have on in stock with a set of 17 inch aftermarket rims and tinted windows. I personally like it and if i was after something cheaper and was more practical to have if i had a family i would consder one very hard..

Get over it guys ...

[Tfer]

The comments on this topic are getting a little harsh and I can understand people's views. My feelings are very much the same. But what I have come to understand is that there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Holden is not a premium brand, specifically in the lighter segments... and people know this. Unfortunately they are now giving the MAJORITY of people what they want. We know that they were on to a good thing with most of the Opel products, but as they said... people did not buy them enough to make them profitable. Public perception about a company is not easy to change. Unfortunately Holden's is cheap, fairly reliable and a bit of a maaaate mentality (not all of course, but i have worked for them, so I can vouch for this). The only way to deal with the Barina/Viva/Epica/Captiva situation is to just buy something else

Agreed.... speak by not opening the wallet :D


There is nothing wrong with the Epica. I think it looks quite nice. The dealership i have just ordered my VXR From have on in stock with a set of 17 inch aftermarket rims and tinted windows. I personally like it and if i was after something cheaper and was more practical to have if i had a family i would consder one very hard..

Get over it guys ...

Yes, agreed also. I am so "over it" with Holden importing South Korean crap. :p

[Tfer]

And here's the thread Vectracious was referring to in the AH Astra Sedan thread..... and yes, the Epica is still a big piece of South Korean crap :eek:

My 2 cents.... hmmm.... I wonder how long it will take before someone Opelises one :rolleyes: :p :wall:

[Calibrated]

NOOOOOO, dont put that idea out there!!!!
i will puke on the persons head if they do that.

[Tfer]

NOOOOOO, dont put that idea out there!!!!
i will puke on the persons head if they do that.

My 2 cents..... probably the sort of person who buys one of these things probably would have some sort of twisted idea that this piece of crap is an Opel :eek: just like the already mentioned TK Barina owner :eek: :rolleyes:

[Calibrated]

i sure as hell hope not.....

[JasonGilholme]

Its a holden camry....

[Red AH SRI T]

Maybe someone will put Chev Badges on it???

[Calibrated]

hahha, well, they can go ahead and do that,it will be badged as a chev in other countries.

Just dont opelize it

[dieselhead]

have seen one the other day a the dealer. oh boy, how fugly is that exhaust muffler... the only thing fuglier than that is big wings on 1989 Hyundai Excels. um, no, the muffler beats that, too :)

[Vectracious]

Thought I'd post this link up here as well.....

Money back guarantee on the Epica.... interesting

http://www.worldcarfans.com/rsslink.cfm/article/2070430.004/holden/holden-epica-launched-mid-size-without-compromise

[Shaun]

You know what that tells me with the money back.. they have a lot of faith in the product. Honestly for the price and if i was in the market for something that size i think it would be hard to look past for Epica.

[Vectracious]

Apparantly, you needed to have bought another car of equal or greater value as well as meet the other conditions before Holden refund your money. People in the market for an Epica are unlikely to be able to do that.

[digifish]

Apparantly, you needed to have bought another car of equal or greater value as well as meet the other conditions before Holden refund your money. People in the market for an Epica are unlikely to be able to do that.

That means you will end up with one of the new base-model Astras...probably not a bad thing :)

digifish

[MatsHolden]

I think it has to be something like less than 1500km too.

[Tfer]

What a joke..... and it just gets crazier :p

[Shaun]

Have any of you actually had a decent look at an Epica ??

I did on the weekend for the price you get a very decent value .

So what if its not "Opel" . I think it looks great for the money and extreme value for the money. And the quality isnt that bad either.

[Naf]

I had a look at one last weekend. The build quality compared to the Vectras is very poor IMO. It's a cheap Korean car and not a fill for the market the Vectra had but aimed at entering the cheaper mid car market alongside the likes of the Lantra and Lancer. A bad move for holden as it's not reflective of their brand image or headed in the direction the company is trying to persue. After investing so much money in the Comodore and coming up with a very successfull model I feel they have let them selves down by letting the rest of their product line slip.

[bigmick]

it seems to me that Holden want peeps that like the "European" ride and handling to go for the larger commodore rather than a mid sized car...after all it's the flagship

[Ishley]

I too had a good look around one on Sunday at Toowoomba Holden. No salesman to annoy you, so i got to have a good look at it. I have to say that it is a contender for the market it is aimed at.

The Vectra/Epica is in a market that has the likes of the Elantra, Lancer, Mazda6 and the list continues to grow. While the Mazda is top of the field, it has the premium price too. I think that when Holden release a series 2, or the next model Epica, it will change the mind of alot of people out there.

Holden are not silly. Especially seeing they are willing to throw $1 billion's at the latest Commodore. They have kept the Commodore to almost what it has always been. As with the Astra, the 2 cars that sell the most for Holden.

They now have the best of both worlds, being able to offer a budget priced, quality car, with the Holden name that the average person trusts. As well as offering world class vechiles (Astra, VE Commodore, Monaro).

I think the next generation Epica will surprise.

[Tfer]

Have any of you actually had a decent look at an Epica ??

I did on the weekend for the price you get a very decent value .

So what if its not "Opel" . I think it looks great for the money and extreme value for the money. And the quality isnt that bad either.

Yes Shaun, many of us have had a good look at this hideous piece of GM Daewoo, and quite frankly most of us do not like it, as per the many previous posts.

So, if you love it so much, trade your ride in, and buy one.

And my 2 cents.... price has never ever driven me to buy something.... if I was price conscious, I would have purchased an Accord Euro or a Mazda 6, or Hyundai Sonata, the list goes on, yada yada yada. But no, I selected a Vectra for a lot of reasons, but not one was price. :D

So yes Shaun, we know you think this epic piece of crap is extreme value for money, and I respect that, and I realise you do not care if it is not an Opel. Your opinion, but you won't change mine, nor many here. :)

And maybe epic piece of crap mark 2 will be better... who knows.... that is for time to tell :)

[digifish]

So, if you love it so much, trade your ride in, and buy one.


Tfer, that's a bit juvenile...he said it was good value, that does not mean you would buy one. I have a 03 Passat and a CDTi Astra...I too looked at the Epica, I would not want one, but I did think it was good value and not too shabby looking. I wouldn't want one because it's too slow...it is however better than quite a few cars I have owned in my lifetime...

digifish

[Tfer]

Tfer, that's a bit juvenile...he said it was good value, that does not mean you would buy one. I have a 03 Passat and a CDTi Astra...I too looked at the Epica, I would not want one, but I did think it was good value and not too shabby looking. I wouldn't want one because it's too slow...it is however better than quite a few cars I have owned in my lifetime...

digifish

Umm no.... just for once in my life on this forum, I am not sitting on a fence :rolleyes:

[rjastra]

It's interesting to see the rabit/negative opinions on the Epica on this forum.

And all this support for the Vectra which is considered uncompetitve in its home market (UK/Europe) :)

Strangely the Vectra model that was most competitive in Australia was the one that had the size/format that was more closely aligned to the specs of the current Epica.

It will be interesting to see how the new Mondeo fairs in this market. I have a feeling it will be a little too exxy for the Ford badge. It is much larger and heavier than its competitors. It weighs in at 1600kg!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/208374/ford_mondeo_v_honda_accord_v_vauxhall_vectra_v_vw_ passat.html

[Tfer]

It's interesting to see the rabit/negative opinions on the Epica on this forum.

And all this support for the Vectra which is considered uncompetitve in its home market (UK/Europe) :)

Strangely the Vectra model that was most competitive in Australia was the one that had the size/format that was more closely aligned to the specs of the current Epica.

It will be interesting to see how the new Mondeo fairs in this market. I have a feeling it will be a little too exxy for the Ford badge. It is much larger and heavier than its competitors. It weighs in at 1600kg!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/grouptests/208374/ford_mondeo_v_honda_accord_v_vauxhall_vectra_v_vw_ passat.html

And weight has never been a consideration for me also, as the Veccy C is around 1500kg, and as we know, as each model comes on line, normally the power and torque figures also increase, so if the new Mondeo is 1600kg, most likely given the current figures of the current model, she will most certainly still be able to life her skirts and run hard..... hmmm, something the epic piece of crap at this stage cannot :rolleyes:

So weight and price are not considerations for me, but quality, road prescence, safety, build quality, driveability, built in Europe are considerations of mine (whilst there are some good examples of Japanese models, I have not seen one South Korean model yet I would consider, at this moment). :)

My 2 cents.............

[digifish]

If you just can't get enough of the Epica wars...then the Drive Blog has a 690 post thread :)

http://blogs.drive.com.au/2007/04/holden_epica_faces_uphill_batt.html#comments

[Calibrated]

the Vectra D OPC, is the 5th Fastest 4 Door family saloon in the world
*according to clarkson.

I have looked at, and driven the Epidemic.
Was unimpressed on every aspect, it looks cheap, it feels cheap. It goes like boat on a sandbank.

If you are price conscious, buy a demo, or 1 year old. Not a brand new car.

[Shaun]

Yes Shaun, many of us have had a good look at this hideous piece of GM Daewoo, and quite frankly most of us do not like it, as per the many previous posts.

So, if you love it so much, trade your ride in, and buy one.

And my 2 cents.... price has never ever driven me to buy something.... if I was price conscious, I would have purchased an Accord Euro or a Mazda 6, or Hyundai Sonata, the list goes on, yada yada yada. But no, I selected a Vectra for a lot of reasons, but not one was price. :D

So yes Shaun, we know you think this epic piece of crap is extreme value for money, and I respect that, and I realise you do not care if it is not an Opel. Your opinion, but you won't change mine, nor many here. :)

And maybe epic piece of crap mark 2 will be better... who knows.... that is for time to tell :)


The Vectra your driving is bland as.. Infact i would say an 850 Volvo had more style to it .

Thats because you and others here are very narrow minded and it shows in your post. Fair enough your entitled to your opinon but at the same time you are bagging it out for things that have little bearing on the car.

Price is what sells cars. Not if its built by "Opel". The avarage joe that walks into the dealer with House family one / two incomes isnt looking for a "Opel" because its " European" He is looking at what fits his budget.

I would put money on it the cost of servicing and maintaing an Epica would be at least half the cost of the Vectra.

Look at it logically.

I still stand by my calls that your Vectra is about as bland as a tissue box.

[Calibrated]

Price is what sells cars. Not if its built by "Opel". The avarage joe that walks into the dealer with House family one / two incomes isnt looking for a "Opel" because its " European" He is looking at what fits his budget.


and i quote myself




I have looked at, and driven the Epidemic.
Was unimpressed on every aspect, it looks cheap, it feels cheap. It goes like boat on a sandbank.

If you are price conscious, buy a demo, or 1 year old. Not a brand new car.

and the Hyundai Sonata is faar better value for money
And the same price.
http://au.hyundai.clientsites.carspecs.jato.com/au.hyundai/keyadvantages.asp?screen=compare&category=&init=70369220070328,70328020070220,70222320060719, 15829020060725

[Calibrated]

So, by thinking we are all whining because its not the new vectra (which is the biggest reason), now ask this:

What does everyone think of the Hyundai Sonata?
same price.

[Tfer]

The Vectra your driving is bland as.. Infact i would say an 850 Volvo had more style to it .

Thats because you and others here are very narrow minded and it shows in your post. Fair enough your entitled to your opinon but at the same time you are bagging it out for things that have little bearing on the car.

Price is what sells cars. Not if its built by "Opel". The avarage joe that walks into the dealer with House family one / two incomes isnt looking for a "Opel" because its " European" He is looking at what fits his budget.

I would put money on it the cost of servicing and maintaing an Epica would be at least half the cost of the Vectra.

Look at it logically.

I still stand by my calls that your Vectra is about as bland as a tissue box.

So my Veccy is bland..... each to their own, hence my opinion on the epic piece of crap. :D

Servicing costs 50% or more cheaper than the Veccy, perhaps, but really, I don't care (and hey, have a Holden Dealer who provide trade price servicing for Opelaus members in SEQ..... ah yeah, that's right, you are not :p). :)

Quite frankly, taking a pot shot at my own car is a little low, but hey I guess some people have little respect for others (I have never criticised your ride, nor anyone else's on the forum).... as I know you do not own an epic piece of crap, therefore the epic piece of crap is fair game. Those who know me, know I don't mouth off at other people's choice of ride, as each to their own, and they have put effort and time into making their own decision, which I totally respect. :cool: I thought you may have understood that, but now I realise you don't. Sorry for assuming...

So what if my Veccy is bland (twice).... I chose it for very specific reasons, and would buy another more recent model way before the epic piece of crap. Ah yes, and you can even get one of the last Veccy C's for around the price of the top of the range epic piece of crap...... not a tough choice for me ;) Veccy C all the way (and it has already suffered the depreciation drop, which the epic piece of crap has not) :dance:

Oh yeah, good point, I don't mind some of the styling traits of the Volvos either :)

And I really further do not care whether others love/hate/adore/despise the epic piece of crap, or in fact my Veccy C..... their choice, as much as it is my choice. :D

Re: Sonata... I believe Hyundai has come a long way, longer than GM Daewoo, and so the Sonata would be a better choice over the epic piece of crap, but still not a consideration for me. Am I actually allowed to have my own opinion here, or should I phone a friend? :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, its not an Opel, and this is Opelaus ;)

Whether I am right or whether I am wrong, I am correct in my own opinion :angel:

My 2 cents.............

[Calibrated]

If i was spending $25 000 on a car, i would buy a 2nd hand WRX, but thats just me. or a mint Turbo Cali, with cash to spare. or maybe an S15.

If above scenario was for a family car, it would be a 2nd hand Volvo S40 T4, no questions asked. or a Veccy C.

If i was a fleet manager, looking at a $25 000 brand new car for my reps, i would not even consider the epidemic compared to the Sonata.

[Shaun]

So my Veccy is bland..... each to their own, hence my opinion on the epic piece of crap. :D

Servicing costs 50% or more cheaper than the Veccy, perhaps, but really, I don't care (and hey, have a Holden Dealer who provide trade price servicing for Opelaus members in SEQ..... ah yeah, that's right, you are not :p). :)

Quite frankly, taking a pot shot at my own car is a little low, but hey I guess some people have little respect for others (I have never criticised your ride, nor anyone else's on the forum).... as I know you do not own an epic piece of crap, therefore the epic piece of crap is fair game. Those who know me, know I don't mouth off at other people's choice of ride, as each to their own, and they have put effort and time into making their own decision, which I totally respect. :cool: I thought you may have understood that, but now I realise you don't. Sorry for assuming...

So what if my Veccy is bland (twice).... I chose it for very specific reasons, and would buy another more recent model way before the epic piece of crap. Ah yes, and you can even get one of the last Veccy C's for around the price of the top of the range epic piece of crap...... not a tough choice for me ;) Veccy C all the way (and it has already suffered the depreciation drop, which the epic piece of crap has not) :dance:

Oh yeah, good point, I don't mind some of the styling traits of the Volvos either :)

And I really further do not care whether others love/hate/adore/despise the epic piece of crap, or in fact my Veccy C..... their choice, as much as it is my choice. :D

Re: Sonata... I believe Hyundai has come a long way, longer than GM Daewoo, and so the Sonata would be a better choice over the epic piece of crap, but still not a consideration for me. Am I actually allowed to have my own opinion here, or should I phone a friend? :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, its not an Opel, and this is Opelaus ;)

Whether I am right or whether I am wrong, I am correct in my own opinion :angel:

My 2 cents.............

Refering you your Model Vectra. Not your car as a singluar.

Trade pricing.. I get it regardless of being an opelaus member as i have contacts with in many Sydney Dealerships. Not what you know more who you know.

Pot shots are being taken against those that buy an Epica. Give it up guys. No Vectra is coming to Australia anytime soon. Its a matter of Business .

[Calibrated]

Pot shots are being taken against those that buy an Epica. Give it up guys. No Vectra is coming to Australia anytime soon. Its a matter of Business .

Still doesnt change the fact that the Epidemic is a piece of crap.
Much better options out there for the same money.:boohoo:

[Calibrated]

Even adding the Civic to the equation ( i know it is slightly smaller, but more of a complete car.
http://au.hyundai.clientsites.carspecs.jato.com/au.hyundai/keyadvantages.asp?guid=B317450C4FE24160B1696975CCB D67FA&screen=compare&category=&addvehicle=715719120070119

[GreyRex]

Refering you your Model Vectra. Not your car as a singluar.

Trade pricing.. I get it regardless of being an opelaus member as i have contacts with in many Sydney Dealerships. Not what you know more who you know.

Pot shots are being taken against those that buy an Epica. Give it up guys. No Vectra is coming to Australia anytime soon. Its a matter of Business .

Exactly. We need to calm down people!! I don't really see any people on here buying one, now, or in the near future. It's going to stay as it is... at least for the next few years. I also sense this forum getting a little smaller now because of this Daewoo stuff. We'll just purchase other brands!!

[Calibrated]

and just for good measure..

carpoint comparison
http://www.carpoint.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?view=cmp&ids=20070307.09:35:12,20060222.17:02:56,20050815.1 6:56:34,20060922.16:58:57,20060726.08:15:04&TabID=501130&Alias=carpointau

[Tfer]

The Vectra your driving is bland as.. Infact i would say an 850 Volvo had more style to it .

I still stand by my calls that your Vectra is about as bland as a tissue box.


Refering you your Model Vectra. Not your car as a singluar.

Pot shots are being taken against those that buy an Epica. Give it up guys. No Vectra is coming to Australia anytime soon. Its a matter of Business .

So Shaun if you are not insulting my Vectra, then sort your grammar and refer to "the" Vectra C, not "your" Vectra C, as "the" does not imply ownership, where as "your" does. But I accept you were not criticising my Veccy singular.... thank you for clarifying. :)

And no, will not give this up, as I will call the epic piece of crap, or epidemic (love that Ashley), a turd if I truly believe it to be so. ;) And if an owner of an epic piece of crap wants to take to task over my comments.... I am listening. :)

But until then.... I will not give this up, as this piece of crap they call epidemic, is just that..... crap :D

And I also doubt I would ask for your opinion on purchasing another car in the future, as it is obvious our tastes and standards are way different, and I won't compromise my standards :angel: (and I really don't know what your standards really are, as they seem to conflict and I am confused, so will not comment on your standards, just so you are clear on this point).


Exactly. We need to calm down people!! I don't really see any people on here buying one, now, or in the near future. It's going to stay as it is... at least for the next few years. I also sense this forum getting a little smaller now because of this Daewoo stuff. We'll just purchase other brands!!

Mizled, I am so calm it scares me. :D

I like that... "this Daewoo stuff"..... sounds yucky :p

[Vectracious]

Yes, people, we will remain civil to each other - its an interesting topic (even though it is an Opel forum) - I don't want to lock it because it has descended to name calling and personal attacks....

[Calibrated]

Yes, people, we will remain civil to each other - its an interesting topic (even though it is an Opel forum) - I don't want to lock it because it has descended to name calling and personal attacks....

Im sorry for calling the Epica an Epidemic then..:p i will call it an Epica from now on..there, no more name calling:p

Nah..ill call it epidemic..coz thats what it is.. a bad disease in the automotive industry.

[Vectracious]

Im sorry for calling the Epica an Epidemic then..:p i will call it an Epica from now on..there, no more name calling:p

Nah..ill call it epidemic..coz thats what it is.. a bad disease in the automotive industry.

LOL - you can call the car whatever you like!!

[Tfer]

Thanks Pete.... you are correct.

But I can't help myself calling it an epic piece of crap :o

[Tfer]

Yes, people, we will remain civil to each other - its an interesting topic (even though it is an Opel forum) - I don't want to lock it because it has descended to name calling and personal attacks....

Meh, lock it..... :D

[Calibrated]

LOL - you can call the car whatever you like!!
;)
mm, i need to come up with more names for it then hey?

[Calibrated]

Meh, lock it..... :D
nooooo...:angel:

[Tfer]

nooooo...:angel:

Muwahahahahahahahaha :D

[Calibrated]

Muwahahahahahahahaha :D
You sadistic old man:p

[Tfer]

You sadistic old man:p

I take great offence to the term "old" but thanks for the "sadistic" term :p :D :D

[Calibrated]

I take great offence to the term "old" but thanks for the "sadistic" term :p :D :D
hahaha

now stop hijacking the topic.:p
This discussion is on how we as Automotive Doctors, are going to find a cure for this Epidemic. Seeing as Holden clearly doesnt have the brainpower.

[Tfer]

hahaha

now stop hijacking the topic.:p
This discussion is on how we as Automotive Doctors, are going to find a cure for this Epidemic. Seeing as Holden clearly doesnt have the brainpower.

sorry Ashley.... my bad :o

The solution is simple..... pull the plug on the life monitor, and ask Opel to provide the replacement :D

Yeah yeah I know, it won't happen..... :(

Seriously, see if it the epic piece of crap survives round 1 and hope and pray that the epic piece of crap round 2 is better in all areas such as:

build quality
engine output
wheel sizes
performance
class
prescence
and the list goes on ;)

[JasonGilholme]

meh, they're just using it to fund their opel import business. ;)

[GreyRex]

hahaha

now stop hijacking the topic.:p
This discussion is on how we as Automotive Doctors, are going to find a cure for this Epidemic. Seeing as Holden clearly doesnt have the brainpower.

Exactly. They're going to need some hardcore plastic surgery, as they prematurely ageing the brand... FAST

LOL

[Tfer]

meh, they're just using it to fund their opel import business. ;)

That is the second funniest thing I have read today, but possibly you have a good point :D

[Calibrated]

Have you guys seen the TV ad for the epidemic?
hilarious!!
"Effortless performance" and "The power of a Holden"..

hahahhahahhahhahhaha...omg if that isnt false advertising, then i dont know what is..

[Tfer]

So here's the story..... yesterday coming up to the on ramp to the South East Freeway on Main Roads, I had this ugly piece of Holden Epica up the Veccy's butt..... man, there was an empty right hand lane :confused: but no, I think he had a point to prove or something....

So pulled up at the lights (or robots in South African speak) and waited for green. Green came, so in typcial Veccy C fashion, bootful in first to 60kmh, change to 2nd and gas it to the the speed limit and merged onto the South East Freeway...... (gotta love 2nd gear with the 3.2l)

Where was the Epica? :confused: Oh yeah..... way behind.... so I slowed down and waited for him to catch me.... hmmm, but he wouldn't :( yeah baby, Opel all the way!!!!!

The brand new Vectra replacement wooped by a 4.5 year old Veccy C with a 148,000km on the clock :D

Pffft to the Epic piece of shit :rolleyes:

[Shaun]

Have you guys seen the TV ad for the epidemic?
hilarious!!
"Effortless performance" and "The power of a Holden"..

hahahhahahhahhahhaha...omg if that isnt false advertising, then i dont know what is..

No because the Engines are Assembled in Australia then Shipped over to Keora and fitted to the cars.

[Red AH SRI T]

Actually shaun, only the Barina and Viva engines are made in Australia.

[Shaun]

Actually shaun, only the Barina and Viva engines are made in Australia.

Are you forgetting the Captiva as well ?

[bill142]

Doesn't the Epica use a lower capacity version of the HFV6 or whatever its called. Same as whats in the commonwhore.

[orangepicker]

back in 2005, i was in the phillipines, i went to the showroom to get some opel badges.
that car wasthere branded a chevy.
i took some photos and examined them when i gotback here in oz.revelations were:
daewoo engines,v6 and 4 cyl.

what are we buying lately????????
out of date cars that are assembled or made from tin?????/
how long do they last??????/
i still have my JR vectra , everyone ,mechanics and panel shops call them shit boxes.. but the durability is so great.

the only reason they call them shit boxes is because none of these so called technicians annd panel beaters know anything about european cars.
they are all used to asian crap.

when i was working in a holden dealership in sydney, there was a technician who came from singapore. give him a commodore and he gets nowhere.
give him any of the opels ,barina, astra, vectra and calibra ..... he breezes through them like nothing.......

i wish i could see him again..... he was underpaid for his qualifications so he left

[Vectracious]

Doesn't the Epica use a lower capacity version of the HFV6 or whatever its called. Same as whats in the commonwhore.

Epica is a straight 6 design, so no has absolutely nothing to do with the HFV6/Alloytec engine. If it did, I'd say it would put out more than 110 kw or whatever it does....

[Red AH SRI T]

Are you forgetting the Captiva as well ?

woops, sorry, my bad.

Cappy uses the Alloytech made here too ;)

[InsaneAsylum]

i still have my JR vectra , everyone ,mechanics and panel shops call them shit boxes.. but the durability is so great.

the only reason they call them shit boxes is because none of these so called technicians annd panel beaters know anything about european cars.
they are all used to asian crap.


exactly.... fear of the unknown! :)

[OZChris]

Followed an Epica yesterday, I must say that visually it's not quite there - got a fairly uninspirational tail :(

[Tfer]

Followed an Epica yesterday, I must say that visually it's not quite there - got a fairly uninspirational tail :(

And side view and front end view..... really uninspiring all over..... piece of sh!t that it is :rolleyes:

[Vectracious]

Followed an Epica yesterday, I must say that visually it's not quite there - got a fairly uninspirational tail :(

Yeah, I was following one in bad traffic on the freeway and I would have been staring at it for at least 5 minutes before I realised what it was. Completely anonymous. At least with the Vectra you knew it was a Vectra, and with the B - people would even think it was an Audi or BMW :rolleyes:

[EL BURITO]

B that are taken care of still look good. C's are delisious in. the shape umm.

[MatsHolden]

BUT it's selling a lot better than the Vectra due to it's low pricing. They are nice car for people that aren't 'car people'.

[OZChris]

BUT it's selling a lot better than the Vectra due to it's low pricing. They are nice car for people that aren't 'car people'.

Anyone driven one yet? I have already heard people use lines like: "it's got a V6 like the Commodore" and "it's only slightly smaller than a Commodore". Be interesting what it drives like.

[MatsHolden]

Anyone driven one yet? I have already heard people use lines like: "it's got a V6 like the Commodore" and "it's only slightly smaller than a Commodore". Be interesting what it drives like.

lol V6 like a Commodore? It's got a straight 6, with the option of 2.0L 6 with 105kw or a 2.5L 6 with 115kw. The engine was designed and developed by Porsche, it's smooth but lacks torque.

[Calibrated]

- people would even think it was an Audi or BMW :rolleyes:
I've had quite a few comments about my "BMW 850i"

lol...

[bornwild]

lol V6 like a Commodore? It's got a straight 6, with the option of 2.0L 6 with 105kw or a 2.5L 6 with 115kw. The engine was designed and developed by Porsche, it's smooth but lacks torque.

You sure about that Porsche thing?

[Vectracious]

You sure about that Porsche thing?


The Epica's engines were designed by Porsche's engineering division but there's not much Porsche about it other than refinement. The Epica's engine is silky smooth compared with these raucous fours but unfortunately that doesn't translate to power.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=39718&comparisonID=1029

9th paragraph down though. Still a wank selling point though.

[bornwild]

Out of all those cars on that link, I like the Hyundai Sonata the best....it's design has the most class about it and the quality is the best out of those.

[MitchSRi]

I have driven one, and been tortured driving a Viva as well.

Daewoo .. WHY have you cursed the automotive world releasing these cars.

The Viva is shockingly cheap inside and out, the Epica is better inside, and doesnt actually ride too badly.

Biggest problem in both these cars (apart from the fact they should still be Opels and not GM Daewoos), are the gearboxes.

It has a mind of its own and seemingly jumps up and down on its merry way, not too sure exactly where it belongs.

Put foot in, turn around a corner and it isnt sure if it should shift up or down.

It's like an Inspector Morse mystery.. will I get shoved into my seat as it shifts down, redlines, then shifts back up... or will it shift up, and I drive around the corner with nothing accelerating at all.. it's all part of the mystery.

The Vectra (and Corsa for that matter) were great cars, and Holden were stupid to drop them for cheaper alternatives.

They are, and will never compare to well built Euro cars like Opels.

[Calibrated]

I have driven one, and been tortured driving a Viva as well.

Daewoo .. WHY have you cursed the automotive world releasing these cars.

The Viva is shockingly cheap inside and out, the Epica is better inside, and doesnt actually ride too badly.

Biggest problem in both these cars (apart from the fact they should still be Opels and not GM Daewoos), are the gearboxes.

It has a mind of its own and seemingly jumps up and down on its merry way, not too sure exactly where it belongs.

Put foot in, turn around a corner and it isnt sure if it should shift up or down.

It's like an Inspector Morse mystery.. will I get shoved into my seat as it shifts down, redlines, then shifts back up... or will it shift up, and I drive around the corner with nothing accelerating at all.. it's all part of the mystery.

The Vectra (and Corsa for that matter) were great cars, and Holden were stupid to drop them for cheaper alternatives.

They are, and will never compare to well built Euro cars like Opels.
Well Said. and 100% correct.

i also drove the Epidemic..and i know what you mean about the gearbox....one of the worst i have ever driven...even though i hate auto's to start with..it was appalling.:eek:

[Wraith]

Have you guys seen the TV ad for the epidemic?
hilarious!!
"Effortless performance" and "The power of a Holden"..

hahahhahahhahhahhaha...omg if that isnt false advertising, then i dont know what is..

Yeh, viewed the commercial a couple of days ago.....I see they've used a black example for most of it - wonder if that's to cover up all the ugly bits, black is the best colour to hide a cars ugly external lines and features....

[Oz]

I haven't driven one yet & don't really want to lower myself to the Epic NOT's level & do so, but I did have a look at one over the weekend & walked away feeling pretty poorly in the ol' guts. The quality & fit of materials is not at all that good, especially if you look around the transmission area. It wobbled like a tub of jelly & it's paint finish looked thin. Mind you this was the top line CDXi model. How dare Holden use the Vectra's model designator on the Epic NOT.

Holden wanted to sell more cars, & they seem to be doing just that, but they no longer have the image they used to.

[MatsHolden]

black is the best colour to hide a cars ugly external lines and features....

Black's actually the best colour to show off the surfaces of a car:o, as it has the most contrast between reflection and shadow.

[bornwild]

Black's actually the best colour to show off the surfaces of a car:o, as it has the most contrast between reflection and shadow.

I can hardly see the door handles on your corsa in your sig....whereas if it were silver you'd see them clearly :p:p

[dieselhead]

Holden just released the Epica Diesel, with a 1.9 CDTi 4 pot that puts out 320 Nm and 110 kW and has an average fuel economy of 7.6 l/100km. You can say whatever you like about the Epica but not that is not good value for money at $29,990 with auto! With this engine it must be very cheap to run. I say if you buy a Commodore Omega instead of one of these you've got rocks in your head :)
I'll be test driving a diesel Epica this week at work and will let you know how she goes.

[USC]

I have rocks in my head..I will go the Omega:p

cheap korean diesel isnt my cup of tea.

[poita]

So is it the same motor as the Astra?

[Calibrated]

So is it the same motor as the Astra?
i reckon so. same specs.

still an epica regardless.

i throw up a little in my mouth everytime i see one.

[poita]

They flogging the adds on TV pretty hard

[dieselhead]

Not quite the same engine as Astra's, rather sharing it with the Captiva. It is a VM Motori developed engine. Has the same power/torque figures though.

[Jerram]

Two Part Answer here - Part one is a bit of a rant, Part two is something worth reading regarding diesel v/s petrol.

__________________________________________________ ________

I hate it that they ripped the Vectra for this azn 525i attempt.

Mind you though, I guess;

-The V6 Veccys were pretty dear and you were still only getting a Holden badge which, unfortunately, drew a lot of stereotypes which would say things like "but the Commodore's got a bigger engine" and "what's European?..is that where that Hitler guy lives" etc.

-Anyone who looked anywhere on the internet would see heaps of crap on the Vec from both that prat Clarkson & disgruntled owners who tried to run the Vec B like a cheap Daihatsu (91 RON, not serviced regularly or serviced poorly by Holden mechanics not knowing much about the car despite the fact it was made here for a number of years)

Not to Underestimate the mental capacity of our culture, but I guess the Vectra wasn't the right car for the "All Aussie" car maker to sell. The average Holden buyer couldn't justify the spend (for the V6 Vec Cs at least) when they could have more car for less in the commodore. Those that really wanted European would've probably been able to spend the extra 10-20k to get something like an Audi A4 Quattro or a 330i, and then they weren't buying a Holden badge.

In my honest opinion cars like the Vectra C (and perhaps the Tigra as well) would've done better if they were sold here with the Opel badge by an Opel or just generic 'GM' dealer. (Much like what Skoda is starting to do).
__________________________________________________ _____

To return somewhat to the Topic, a Diesel epica is all well and good, but it's getting to the point where the difference in the price between Petrol and Diesel is enough to more then offset any comsumption difference.

Put it this way - my 1998 1998cc Vec B CD does 7.8L/100km when I use 95 RON premium unleaded. (Mind you it uses a Cone filter and decent spark plugs so I'm guessing I have around 104kW of power (stock is 100). (Those two mods cost me a grand total of around $80.)

The claimed output on the diesel Epica is 110kW for 7.6/100km

I filled my car today, and I paid $1.45 for Caltex Vortex (hooray for living in QLD). Diesel was selling at the pump next to me for $1.72. The difference in price means that over the difference of one 60L tank, you'll pay $16.20 more for Diesel.

One 60L tank will theoretically get me 769Km, and one 60L tank will get the Epica 789Km. That's 20 extra Kilometers for $16.20. While driving those 20 kilometers, my 20th century technology Vec B will consume 1.56L of fuel, which to me is worth $2.26.

So summing up, My petrol Vectra B with $80 worth of engine mods will do 789Km for $13.94 less then it costs a new diesel Epica if prices stay around the same. Most predictions argue that the gap between diesel and petrol will grow as demand for the heavier distillate increases.

As an afterthought, let's not forget the other diesel things to know

-More low down torque, but overall less performance orientated
-Dirtier, more emissions
-Harder to start in cold areas; Start requires glow plug
-Reasonably agricultural in soundbyte
-stigma attached to them in Australia at least (as you can see from my stereotypical remarks above)

That's all for now...

[dieselhead]

I was suggesting anyone on the market for a vanilla Commodore or Falcon should have a hard look at the diesel Epica. Cheaper than those two, much more fuel efficient, even with higher distillate prices and a much lighter car, too. How on Earth could you save fuel with two tonne car?!

There's another misconception used when comparing petrol vs. diesel: using religiously the average fuel consumption stated by manufacturers. It won't tell you the whole story. Reading Carguide's review of the new BMW X6 we see that stated average fuel economy for the 210 kW 35d is 9.0 l/100km vs. 12.1 l/100km for the 225 kW marvelous twin-turbo petrol six. On a spirited test drive the diesel reached 11 l/100km (22% increase over the official average) while the petrol's got up to 19 l/100km (72% increase)!

Trash the Epica all day long and it won't sip more than 9.5 l/100km, guaranteed. On the other hand, do that in a petrol six Falcodore and see what happens. Why is this important you may ask, since driven sensibly a petrol six can be driven for 11 l/100 km? Well, that's exactly the problem in my view. I'd rather not drive than to mind my right foot all the time and behave like I'm 84 behind the wheel...

[USC]

true that it wont use much diesel if u trash it all day...but will the korean engine still be in 1 piece after all the hard work:p or will be sound like an old tractor and blow heaps of black smoke cos all internal bits are worn out.

[Vectracious]

but will the korean engine still be in 1 piece after all the hard work

are they building the engine in Korea? I thought VM Motori is just in Italy.... :confused:

[MatsHolden]

It's designed by VM Motori and built by GMDAT. Their new facilities are a far cry from the old days... and even then Daewoo's never really fell apart...

[Red AH SRI T]

The new 6 speed gearbox has done wonders for the Epica, not more hunting around. And better performance too.

[Apex]

I was suggesting anyone on the market for a vanilla Commodore or Falcon should have a hard look at the diesel Epica. Cheaper than those two, much more fuel efficient, even with higher distillate prices and a much lighter car, too. How on Earth could you save fuel with two tonne car?!

There's another misconception used when comparing petrol vs. diesel: using religiously the average fuel consumption stated by manufacturers. It won't tell you the whole story. Reading Carguide's review of the new BMW X6 we see that stated average fuel economy for the 210 kW 35d is 9.0 l/100km vs. 12.1 l/100km for the 225 kW marvelous twin-turbo petrol six. On a spirited test drive the diesel reached 11 l/100km (22% increase over the official average) while the petrol's got up to 19 l/100km (72% increase)!

Trash the Epica all day long and it won't sip more than 9.5 l/100km, guaranteed. On the other hand, do that in a petrol six Falcodore and see what happens. Why is this important you may ask, since driven sensibly a petrol six can be driven for 11 l/100 km? Well, that's exactly the problem in my view. I'd rather not drive than to mind my right foot all the time and behave like I'm 84 behind the wheel...

That is a very good point and is often overlooked! We test drove the 123d a few months back with 3000 demo kms on it and its average was 8.7, I was alarmed at that figure until the dealer pointed out that it was the dealership hack car and had had the pants thrashed off it buy them and the customers! Impressive stuff considering we averaged 9.2 in the Astra driving it semi tame.

We ended up with V8 petrol instead and petrol is a dollar more a Litre over here.

[rjastra]

The diesel vs petrol savings equation has been reported in one of the 4wd magazines this month. Even for those thirsty beasts the savings from buying a diesel version can be hard to justify. Especially now as most of them can be had with quiet, smooth, powerful and efficient petrol/5speed auto combinations.

As for Commodore economy.... I drove back from the Snowies on Monday.
500km at an overall average speed of 100km/h (so not hanging about) with average fuel consumption of 8.1l/100km (on cats piss 91RON). Not bad at all.
Could have saved more if I had dropped the average speed.

[Vectracious]

Which engine rj - Ecotec or Alloytec?

[rjastra]

Which engine rj - Ecotec or Alloytec?

VZ = Alloytec.

[Vectracious]

VZ = Alloytec.

Yeah, Dad had a VZ Berlina - he used to get some great economy on the freeway - he now has a VE Calais with the 195kW engine - they've just driven up to Surfers yesterday - his average economy was in the 7's he reckons according to the trip computer!!!

[dieselhead]

Oh well, if you could only drive on freeways all the time...
I'd be curious to find out about some economy figures for that brilliant V6 in Sydney normal driving conditions.

[Vectracious]

Oh well, if you could only drive on freeways all the time...
I'd be curious to find out about some economy figures for that brilliant V6 in Sydney normal driving conditions.

I can tell you now - its crap :D

But the Ecotec and Alloytec are still pretty frugal for what they are. The old Buick 3.8 was actually famous for it. :)

[Apex]

Personally I couldn’t live with a diesel and over here the governments Road User Tax that is charged as part of registration makes driving a diesel pointless over petrol.

Do you guys get taxed extra for driving a diesel?

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/commercial/ruc.html (http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/commercial/ruc.html)

http://www.pricewatch.co.nz/

[Vectracious]

Do you guys get taxed extra for driving a diesel?


Its about 20 c/L more expensive than 91 ULP. In Melbourne anyway.