Recalls on Z18XE????

[lucy]

I was wanting to know does anyone know about any recalls on the Z18XE???
I was doing a bit of research when I came across a web page informing poeple about the recall over in europe, the recall said "Vaxhall has recalled the Z18XE and the Z18XEL, only 04 models onwards, due to valve bounce, the weak valve springs are not returning fast enough and may break."
I only ask about the recall, because this is what has just happened to my seven month old SRi barina...
Holden is refusing to cover this under warrenty, and they can only tell me, that I have bent valves, they have only done a compretion test. Untill I say to holden it is may fault(although I really don't see how I could have done that) they are also refusing to even pull my car apart and inspect it properly, an even see what the main cause of the problem is.
Although holden can only tell me it is 'Driver Error' and are triing to forward the repair bell to me (around $4000), so now I'm stuck with a brand new car at the holden car yard thats broken and they wont fix it.....
If this so called recall is true and anyone knows about it then can you please contact me asap, Because the more I know, the more I have behind me, so then I'll have my SRi on the road and running again....

[Nem]

It would appear (http://m1gst.com/vb/showpost.php?p=171251&postcount=1) to be true.

RECALL

I found out today that the Z18XE and Z18XEL are soon to be recalled due to the Inlet and Exhaust valve springs in cylinder head which MIGHT break. Models affected are Vectra C, Signum, Zafira, Astra G and H, Meriva and Corsa C. I have a list of chassis no. s but I will only post the ones for the Astra G and H. If anyone wants the chassis no. s for the rest of the cars I have posted then PM me.


MODEL - PLANT - FROM - TO

Astra G - Antwerp - 4 5 111593 - 4 5 149977
Astra G - Bertone - 4 B 002673 - 4 B 005168
Astra G - Bochum - 4 2 115141 - 4 2 144022
Astra H - Antwerp - 4 5 118093 - 4 5 138487

I've asked for GOGS to provide me with the chassis numbers for the Corsa as well which I will post here. This is much like Holden's denial of the z22se timing chain issue. I'd be sticking to my guns on this one if I were you.

[lucy]

The recall is true then, but why hasen't any holden dealer in australia made the recall public, because yesterday when I rang holden and asked them about it they had no idea what I was talking about??? Where did you get the info so I can print it an give it to hlden to let them see it is actully true and there in the wrong??? So till I find out more about this, I'm stuck with out my car, its just sitting at holden,and they are still triing to blame me for the problem.

[Mr T]

My advice...

Contact the service department in the Holden Regional office in your state (NSW's is at Lane Cove) tell them your story...you see, the dealer only knows what Holden have told them, they will not research it on your behalf because, well, they dont care!

Get yourself armed with the info from Nem and lay it out on the table, and nicely request action...the head office willl know what is going on...

On another note: 'Driver Error' - please...the car is fitted with a rev limiter, how the bloody hell can the driver cause valve failure whilst driving it within the advertised capabilities...!!!

:rolleyes:

[GeeeAus]

And so many call Daewoo's reputation for quality into question.

It not as if the Opel cars of today are exactly trouble free.

[Mr T]

There is a difference between quality and reliability...

No one here has put down Daewoo's reliability...just low specs, cheap materials, poor design and pathetic build quailty...after all Daewoo have been using Opel/Holden engines since adam was a boy...!!!

[Poogene2001]

Are we talking engine numbers or chassis numbers?
I cant quite work out what these numbers refer to:
Astra H - Antwerp - 4 5 118093 - 4 5 138487
HELP!!

[GeeeAus]

No Mr T, you see I have certainly not missed the point.

There is NO DISTINCTION between a good quality car, and a reliable one. When a car is made well, with good components and design, it is of good quality, the upshot of which is that it will deliver a predicable and consistent performance; in other words, it will be reliable.

Same thing, same outcome.

The hard pill to swallow, for me as a Vectra owner as much as anybody else is:

Opel's car's of late have been of poor quality, and therefore demonstrate poor reliability.

No confusion, no mistake.

Daewoo's cars will probably be only as unreliable as current Opel models. That is to say the family II engine in them will most likely be problematic and they may suffer the usual litany of small GM made car electrical bugbears.

My Point Is That Opel Is Not Any Better.

You only need look at examples like this one and the contents of "Nice car but......" forums, along with Z22xx series timing chain issues to see that.

I think that Opel should be very, very embarrassed by what had unfolded in a large number of their vehicles.

Daewoo, and Daewoo buyers have little more to worry about.


Mr T, it has frequently been conjectured here that Daewoo models are no good because they suffer quality issue that make them unreliable. You would be aware of this yourself having read many of the posts I’m sure…..

How founded is this Hex of the house of Daewoo in the face of all Opel’s quality issues…..?

At least now Holden customers will be able to pay less to be disappointed buy a car with engine and electrical issues.

Tongue in cheek, I think so…..

GeeeAus

[low astra]

have a look at how the body pannels on a daewoo compare 2 a opel, there is a majour differance, opel pannels fit nicley and lines meet up, the dash pannels and interior trim are constructed out of better quality plastic's and generally last longer in the hotter tempratures,

however like anything if u treat is like **** it will break, i think the biggest probablem with opel cars is more to do within the secrvecing departments at holden who dont know or understand what they are doing and the reason they are doin things

drive a daewoo and a opel tell me what feels like it hugs the road better

[GeeeAus]

Opel are much more accomplished handlers than Daewoo's, it true.

The engines and core vehicle design, IE chassis are in many cases identical.

The Opel has issues, timing drive gear problems are common place, as are all manner of electronic annoyances, from Transmission selector switches that need regreasing, to TID / MID displays that are I’ll equipped to cope with the Australian sun. Opel's don’t to better than Daewoo made cars in out hot climate, often they do worse, most Daewoo's don't use the silly and completely unsuitable TID / MID design in Australian bound product.

Daewoo use the same engine as most Opel's meaning the same issues affect both vehicles. Daewoo's cost less, so the requirement to conduct inconvenient and pricey repairs to youngish cars is not so intolerable. Because significant money was saved up front.

Opel has dropped the ball somewhat, if we are to acknowledge Daewoo for that, then Opel must take its’ medicine also.

This isn’t about whose car is sexier, or has better dynamics, its’ about quality and scoffing unfairly about Asian cars, while all the time Opel has consistently made cars some would justifiably call LEMONS.

People in glasshouses, shouldn’t throw stones….

GeeeAus

Quality control, is quality control ladies and gentlemen. Wether you like it or not.

[Mr T]

My apologies for the hi-Jacked thread...maybe all off topic posts can be split...this is an important issue for lucy...

Anyway...GeeeAus I have worked in the Motor Industry for a long time, I have worked for Holden Retailers, Manufactures, and Distributors and currently work as a Business Development Manager for Cumberland Motor Group (a franchise conglomerate in Western Sydney)...I know a thing or two about cars, their warranty and their construction.

In the industry there is a term known as "Build Quality" this refers to the manner in which a car was built. Including the use of refined engines, adequate chassis rigidity, panel fit, Lower NVH (Noise, Vibration Harshness (sound insulation)) level of standard specification, transmission calibration etc etc...

Then there is the issue of reliability. This refers to the manufacturer providing/engineering components to last, some companies aim for the warrantable period, and others aim for 10 years or even more for expensive cars like Bentley’s.

Examples of cars with high Build Quality:

Mercedes Benz
BMW
Opel
Lexus
Audi
Jaguar

Examples of cars with high Reliability:

Toyota
Hyundai
Mazda
Honda

It is possible for a car with extraordinary Build Quality to be very unreliable...Jaguar and BMW for example. It is also possible for vehicles with low build quality to be very reliable...Hyundai and Mazda for example.

The problem that everyone on this forum faces is that we all want Champaign on a Beer Budget....

[GeeeAus]

Hi Mr T.

I see more clearly your point now, thank you for making it this way. I wish all industries would settle this distinction and even marry them up.

I also acknowledge your very, VERY TRUE statement regarding champagne for beer budget.

I suppose I remain steadfast of the view that a car, which is young and fails on its’ owner will justifiably be regarded as poor quality.

Look at electronics as an example, the better brands, Panasonic, Sony and Pioneer make better quality products. These also last a lot longer, usually because they are better made and designed with more expensive components.

In this sense, to the paying consumer, the two things become the same and unless you are well informed like yourself, and in a position to make the distinction, quality and reliability becomes a mater of splitting hairs.

Also it needs to be noted that in the course of discussion, I and others, have made the mistake of bundling quality and reliability together. For I am a consumer who also only sees how much something has given me trouble, vs how much I've paid (a supposed investment in quality) only to be out of pocket.

If I purchased a shirt that fell apart in the wash, that would be unreliable and also fair to say of poor quality.

In fact some may say "not of merchantable quality".

If I purchased a brand new car, an Opel, a Daewoo, a Honda.

If I did and after a day of driving it experienced catastrophic engine failure, while from and industry perspective that would be a reliability issue, from a legal one it would be a quality one. Not of merchantable quality.

In the eyes of consumers, the line you describe becomes so blurry that some, myself included forget to consider its’ existence. A quality product is that which works, and works well as intended for a reasonable period of time.

I guess as a consumer I've been reasonably disappointed with the quality/reliability of some recent Opel models, as others here have also commented. I view that poking fun a Daewoo in light of that a little unfair as Opel’s own designs have been fraught with peril, expense and complication.

The Holden dealerships are as much to blame as anybody for being unwilling to stick their hands up and say, hey, that product has issues and we’d like to fix them for you.

Even going as far as to lie to customers about issues that are clearly not the owners fault.

I wonder on that basis how much of a real difference we’ll see now Holden favours Daewoo, none I bet…..

Anway, thanks for being cool about my post and providing clarification.

Perhaps you’d do us all a service and explain to your workmates that end users think quality is a term that describes the whole ownership experience, not just rattles squeaks and daggy mouldings.

Try telling old Mrs. Smith that her new Vectra is not working because it’s unreliable as opposed to being of poor quality.

She’ll look at you like you escaped from somewhere, I can understand why…..

GeeeAus

[pred8r]

Some minor observations not specifically towards Gee but consumers in general but he brought some points up.


Hi Mr T.
Look at electronics as an example, the better brands, Panasonic, Sony and Pioneer make better quality products. These also last a lot longer, usually because they are better made and designed with more expensive components.

Most people would agree but how many people have had later model Nokia (the one after 8850, a $1500 phone that slid up and would jam, never to close again and $500 odd to repair)or run a PC with something from Microsoft(name your price), irrespective of price some things can be poorly designed and the fixes are bandaids as they are too 'economically detrimental' for the COMPANY to recall/redesign.



In this sense, to the paying consumer, the two things become the same and unless you are well informed like yourself, and in a position to make the distinction, quality and reliability becomes a mater of splitting hairs.

Also it needs to be noted that in the course of discussion, I and others, have made the mistake of bundling quality and reliability together. For I am a consumer who also only sees how much something has given me trouble, vs how much I've paid (a supposed investment in quality) only to be out of pocket.

These days quality and price have nothing to do with each other. Anyone from a sales/retail industry would know similar products are priced together, why? thats what the market will generally and reliably pay for that product not how good it is. To look it from another point a consumer will expect to pay a certain amount for a product, if its too cheap it 'must' be crap. take this for example;
http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=HT+PZDRV+AND+MULTI+SDRVRS&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=68-010&SDesc=10%26%2334%3B+Multi%2DBit++Ratcheting+Screwd river+with+10+Assorted+Bits
they are about $18 and are directly comparable to this one in operation;
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=72230&group_ID=13204&store=australia&dir=catalog
How do i know? I own both and 'value for money' the stanley one wins hands down. I would class it as being in the same league, NOT that cheap chinese $2shop crap thatll cost you $20 with 200 bits from supercheap.
When I got the stanley I thought $18 cant be that good, it was fantastic. When the A-hole transmission repairer who tried to rip us off left his snap-on one in the car, I could then personally compare.

And if you look at it for a car perspective, Why didnt the Corsa C come with all the Vectra stuff? Because it would force the price of the vectra down. Whats the difference between an Aclass merc and the 500SEL? $300k or so, how much of that is reliability and quality design and how much 'macho d1ck testosterone my wallet is fatter than yours'?



Try telling old Mrs. Smith that her new Vectra is not working because it’s unreliable as opposed to being of poor quality.

She’ll look at you like you escaped from somewhere, I can understand why…..

Yes but if she got the same car for $5 she would still whine
and bitch about poor quality because it broke, thats all.

[lucy]

To buy a good quality car these days you have to spend a good fortune, but for a female who is only 20, I think that a 25 grand car should still be of high quality.

Previously befor I had my SRi Barina, I had the stock standered Barina, for a yaer and didn't have one complication with the car. Thinking that this being a more expencive car I thought it would be of a a higher quality. Obviously I was wrong.

Just because my car may not be the most expencive car out there I still expect a high standered of quality, especaily if the car is only 7 months old and has 25.800km on the clock...

Car dealer ships don't seem to care for the little peole anymore...........

[Mr T]

Hi Mr T.

I see more clearly your point now, thank you for making it this way.

No wuckers....http://www.afactor.net/adapted/avatars/avs/thumbsUp02.gif


Car dealer ships don't seem to care for the little peole anymore...........

They just dont care in general, there is a lack of quality managers out there and because they are all paid commission they only care about today...I have routine arguments here with both the sales managers and service managers about customer retention, but they fail to see the benefits...!!!

[EL BURITO]

Ok HELP i am worried now dose this effect my O4 SXi build date 03/04.

[NUTTTR]

Ok HELP i am worried now dose this effect my O4 SXi build date 03/04.

I woudn't worry too much.......... Just find out from Opel the recall and exactly what it is.........

Dealers have recalls, etc, world wide (or are supposed to) in their computers running TIS.........

Should have.....


Geeaus --> You seem to always harp up about how bad opel's are..... I'm sure this isn't the first time you've complained about them.......... Got a beef with them or something?! Seriously, every car has problems....... Some worse than others... It's the designers 99.99% of the time, rather than the car itself, or the machines. Or the fool who programmed the machines......... It happens with everyone, it's all about the about of end to end testing of the car's they do as to how many problems they actually find... You'll find that "unreliable" is not a term i'd use for many cars these days......... poorly tested however... YES!!!

Aaron

[kirssn]

i checked with my other half last night and he confirmed with his foreman today (just to see if my car had been recalled PD). The answer that came back was that Australia had a recall of 500 astras. No other cars. these astras were actually recalled prior to being sold and the problem was sorted out PD. Also confirmed that mine wasn't in that recalled lot

[EL BURITO]

Just rang Holden customer assistance they did not know WTF i was talking about. And the guy sounded VERY homosexual made me feel uncomfatable.

He said Holden have not issued such a recall and as such it dose not effect you.

[lucy]

customer ass. is a crock, no-one there knows any thing. I have been waiting 2 days for an answer and still don't have one.....

[pred8r]

To buy a good quality car these days you have to spend a good fortune, but for a female who is only 20, I think that a 25 grand car should still be of high quality.

Previously befor I had my SRi Barina, I had the stock standered Barina, for a yaer and didn't have one complication with the car. Thinking that this being a more expencive car I thought it would be of a a higher quality. Obviously I was wrong.

Just because my car may not be the most expencive car out there I still expect a high standered of quality, especaily if the car is only 7 months old and has 25.800km on the clock...

Car dealer ships don't seem to care for the little peole anymore...........
I agree to a point, the SRi is still the same car, it just has more features which you need to pay the extra for. In saying that though, those features should be designed inline with its warranty period not just be addons.

IMO ANY car you buy should be designed to run trouble-free for the period of the warranty, irrespective of how its driven. (thats what engine management can (and is) be utilised to control)

[brizzyboy]

Field Remedy: 1696
Subject: Z18XE/L engine - No compression because of a broken valve spring
Models: Engines: Option:
Astra-G 2004,Vectra-C 2004,Zafira 2004,Corsa-C 2004,Signum 2004,Astra-H 2004,Meriva 2004 Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL,Z18XE| Z18XEL
Complaint: No compression on one cylinder and/or misfire (DTC P030X) is detected beause of a broken valve spring.
Cause: Small hair cracks on the valve spring causes the spring breakage. This failure occurs at early mileage.
Production: Only a limited number of engines as of engine-range: 20CL0347 - 20CS5504 in MY 04 is affected.
Remedy:
Please check first if the car is included in Customer Satisfaction Campaign
04-R-22.
In case of a broken valve spring all other springs (intake and exhaust side)
have to be exchanged too.
Labour Times: TC: Hours:
U3 169 60 Replace all valve springs Vectra C/Signum 92 4.1
U3 169 61 Replace all valve springs Astra G/Astra H 92 3.5
U3 169 62 Replace all valve springs Zafira A 92 3.4
U3 169 63 Replace all valve springs Corsa C 92 4.4
U3 169 64 Replace all valve springs Meriva A 92 4.3
U3 169 65 Repair engine 92
Engine damages shall be claimed using U3 169 65 only.
All replaced valve springs, engines or engine heads shall be sent to the
Warranty Parts Return Center. For all countries without Warranty Parts
Return Center the parts shall be send to the following address for analysis
(with VIN and mileage information):
Pal Henter
Quality Department (Tel: +36 94 551 485)
Opel Hungary Powertrain Ltd.
H-9970 Szentgotthard
Füzesi ut 15.
Hungary
For countries without Warranty Part Return Center the respective costs for
transportation can be claimed together with the labor code U3 169 65 (fill
in transportation costs in field 'Net Item', 'Item Type': M, F or C).
The costs for this repair will be covered during the normal warranty.
The regular warranty procedure should be used for claiming Set-up-time.
FunctionalGroup: J - Engine
Complaint Group: 01 - Broken or Cracked,13 - No/Poor Function
Trouble Code: P030X

[lucy]

Thanks for that info, hopefully it helps. Like I said befor I need as much help as I can get... Then thats the sooner I'll get my car on the road....

[dug74]

As for your answer about the recall... the astras with the valve problem was about march 2004...when opel/vaux sent over about 1000 astras....some/most had valve problems...holden repaired all the astras as they arrived off the boat... how do i know..when i went to purchase a new astra SXi 2dr back in July last year... A dealership bought 300 in a package and was selling them off very cheap $16,990 <new> ...the only catch was...they couldnt give me a reliability on the valves....so i ended up getting the Corsa...same stuff...small engine...and cheaper....and i went to a different dealer...becoz the laydee so wanted me to buy an astra...

Cheers
DUG74

P.S. I had the same problem with holden about my 60K service on an 04.5 model corsa. <chain driven>.. they didnt have a service manual...for it yet...called head office..and they had no idea either....so i faxed the both engines and components from the EPC...and woot woot.... they rang me..and said they will admend all the manuals in corsas from July 04...till Feb 05..when they released a new service manual...which they havent read to notice the different engines....so in closing..all i can say is..HOUND THEM....TILL IT HAPPENS..:D

[dug74]

I went to a dealership today and did some research for you..

I was told by a service centre manager to contact the below address with a stern letter explaining concern.

The Manager
Holden Customer Assistance Centre
GPO Box 1714
Melbourne VIC 3001

Include in your letter the following details:


Your name and address
Telephone numbers
Servicing Dealer's name and address
Vechicle model
VIN number
Date of purchase
Current odometer reading


Also it was suggested to contact the service dealer and ask them to inspect the concern, by pulling the engine down to see the real problem because a compression test will not truly show..

I was told by service mechanic..that a number of things could be wrong,


valve spring could be broken
rockers could be stuck keeping valve open
cam belt could have jumped a tooth
valve could be bent, broken etc
hair crack/crack in cylinder etc


Also when you send your letter off..include all information you can of facts about recalls, problems etc..and include a copy of your job sheet from your dealer saying *driver error*.

As for the *driver error* i was basically told ...its nearly impossible due to as previous said...rev limiters..and is more manufacturers..or workmanship fault.

Cheers
DUG74

[180HOA]

Just rang Holden customer assistance they did not know WTF i was talking about. And the guy sounded VERY homosexual made me feel uncomfatable.

He said Holden have not issued such a recall and as such it dose not effect you.

He sounded homosexual? And that made you uncomfortable?

You need to get a grip.

[astra03]

Lucy, the advice that Dug74 told you sounds like the correct way to go about it. I cannot believe they are giving you the run around with a car so new. What they told you about "driver error" is totally farciacal.

If it happens to be a valve spring problem that has inflicted some 1.8 motors, then it is highly unlikely it would have bent any valves at all. If they did a compression test on all cylinders and only one was down, then it is more likely to be a broken spring keeping the valve from seating tightly.

The other reasons that Dug74 came up with a likely as well, but they need to investigate it much further, to blame you is an insult and I would be screaming from the highest mountain!!

If it is a valve spring problem then as a earlier thread said, it is all warranty work, most motors you can change the springs without even lifting the head off.

Keep at it Lucy, take all the info with you and demand action..

Please keep us all informed on how you went, if you need some moral and physical support, just yell, plenty of Queenslanders that will help you picket the dealership!!!!!!!!

[lucy]

so fare all I know is the following...


Dear Lucy,

After inspecting your vehicle, we have noted that 3 of your cylinders have no compression in 3 cylinders and very little compression in that other cylinder. The engine has a DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) P0219. Engine Over speed condition. This means the engine has been operated at more than 7200 RPM for over 1 second. We believe that the incorrect gear has been selected (1st instead of 3rd). This has resulted in the engine suffering valve float, which in turn has bent the valves in the cylinder head.

We believe the gearbox has been forcibly shifted into and inappropriate gear at the incorrect time, and have been advised by Technical Assistance that this is the only way to produce the above trouble code.

I have road tested a Holden Astra with the same engine and gearbox configuration and was able to forcibly select 1st gear at 72kph, whilst the

Vehicle was in 2nd gear and at 4500rpm. The owners partner though that this was not possible to achieve.

This problem in our view is a driver error and not a warrantable repair.

Regards,

Service manager.


I'll keep it professional still and I'll leave out the dealer names and names of people who work there.
The thing is them doing a test on another car proves nothing, because I was acctually doing over 55oo rpm at the time, so what they have to say about that is a crock of ****. My partner dose think that this is impossible, due to the fact he acctually pulled it out of third gear for me.
You see what happend was, last saturday night I was driving home from ipswish and I was on the Logan motor way, at the first toll, took off fairly quickly in first , then changed to second, then when I put it in third the car just reved it's tit's off my partner reffed it out off third and the car just stalled, so we rolled to the side off the road an waited for RACQ to come and get us. as you would all be awaer if you put a car back to the wrong gear at the speed of over 5500 rpm, the car will lock up, and skidded on the road, none of which happened.
All I know about the problem is that the car is in better hands and they are trying to do all they can for me, even pulling the car apart to it's fullest extent to see what damage has infact accered. I should know by tomorrow what they think, so Ill keeo you posted.
All the info you all give me is helping, because if I have to take this further I have the right paper work to back me up.
Oh and about customer ass. they do you no good I have been waiting since friday for a report from there tech. ass. boys and I still have no reply, even if I ring an hassel them.....

[lucy]

after I informed vauxhall of my query this is what they had to say, thought you's might like to know...



Dear lucy,

Thank you for your recent email. I have liaised with our Technical Assistance Team who have advised that your vehicle was outside of the affected range for an available rework in respect of a concern similar to that which you describe.

Please be advised, reworks are different to recalls.

Recalls are only issued in conjunction with the DVLA and The Ministry of Transport when the concern is safety related.

The decision to issue a recall is made after extensive investigation has been carried out into the concern. Once all the relevant information has been gathered, it will be presented to The Ministry of Transport and a decision will be made to issue a recall or proceed with a product enhancement programme. If a recall is decided upon, the DVLA then send us a list of addresses (from their database) for all affected vehicles and these address details are used when sending out recall notices.

In the case of product enhancement programmes (field remedies, or reworks), to which I feel you are referring in this instance, when a pattern of the same or of a very similar concern comes to the attention of our Technical Assistance Centre, a full investigation is carried out and where appropriate, an enhancement programme (modification) is instigated. Every Vauxhall Dealer is made aware of the concern by way of Technical Bulletins and they are instructed to carry out the enhancement programme under warranty when a vehicle is presented at the dealership showing symptoms of the concern.

I trust this information is useful. Thank you for allowing me to comment.


Kind regards

Vauxhall Customer care

[zoidberg]

hmmm. My car was built in late 03 and i bought it in April 04. The car only has 17,000km's on it when the cam shaft roller bearings had to be replaced. It took holden 4 atempts to find the problem AND I WORKED FOR THEM AT THE TIME!!.

I'm not sure if the problem I had is related at all becuase my car is an 03 build. Anyway, Opel engines are fantastic but I think their most common down fall is their valve gear.

[Nem]

Just the same as Holden really when they dealt with my timing chain. The customer service department denied any knowledge yet a service bulletin was issued by Holden. It wasnt on the customer service department's system so according to them it didnt affect me. If it wasnt for an opelaus member who had contacts I would never had got the service bulletin number and been able to provide it to the service manager. I can definitely say that the timing chain rattle when I start my car has gone.

Initially vauxhall's response to your query didnt look promising but I think in the second part they're basically saying that it needs to be investigated and linked by your dealer to the issue outlined in the field remedy. I too am baffled by Holden's response when it involves what is essentially a brand new vehicle and cant understand why they seem to place blame on you. There's no way they can without a doubt say that it was an outright driver error especially if they accept the circumstances of the existence of the field remedy. Just because the engine was revving hard doesnt mean that it was your foot on the accelerator or an incorrect gear change. I think they're just trying to have you accept that its your fault so you'll go away.

[kirssn]

all in all, holden suck. my astra is currently sitting in the workshop for the 3rd time in relation to locking issues.

it locks but at intermittent times refuses to deadlock itself. it just had its 30,000km service where remote batteries have been changed etc and it's doing this with both keys.

my other half who works for holden has also seen it behave in this odd way but the car is not showing a fault code. so guess what? i'm, stuck with a stupid astra that throws tantrums and decides on its own when it wants to lock and unlock

i have previously had all of the central locking components in the car changed and have had new keys supplied to me - all under warranty but this time guess what... noooooooo no fault code so there is nothing wrong.

not a problem holden... the car decides to go walkies when i'm not around, the insurance claim is being made against them.... and they've been told this as well..

HOLDEN SUCK

:)

[astra03]

Lucy, can you bring us up to date on what has happened with your car, I am interested to know the outcome?

[lucy]

Iam still in no mans land with my car it is still sitting at the holden dealer because I can't afford to bring it home, I don't have any further progress, but when I do I will keep you all in formed. They still refuss to tell me what is actually happening, so looks like there going to have one un happy customer at there office on wednesday morning, untill I get a result I'm going to harrass them till I actually get it...

[astra03]

Give them hell Lucy, they must give you some details on what is going on, it is your car not their's.

Tell them if they do not hurry up you will be calling the TV stations.

We are all behind you Lucy, NEVER SURENDER!

[Mr T]

With the suspicion of over revving, I'd be investigating it too.

I get people come in my office quite frequently complaining about similar things, this is what I tell them:

We (the dealer) do not warrant your car.
We will fix your car on behalf of the manufacturer if there is a problem caused by defective products or poor construction.
The Manufacturer pays us to fix your car, I want to fix your car so I can make some money.
If I fix your car and the manufacturer knocks back our claim I am the one out of pocket.
If I lie to the manufacturer and I get caught, they will not re-new my Franchise (Dealer) Agreement when it falls due.
My Franchise (Dealer) Agreement has a saleable value of in excess of $1.5Million, I am not prepared to loose that for an easy $500 Profit.

I understand that there are issues here, but you have one thing against you, the ECU logged an engine speed well over the Red line and in excess of the rev limiter. I am highly doubtful that any amount of ranting and raving will get your car fixed under warranty.

If this matter was referred to me this is what I would do:
1. Explain everything I have written here
2. Advise that it wouldn't be covered by the manufacturer
3. Offer to do the job at cost, and allow you to pay weekly, over 2 or 3 Months or so.

Lucy,

We all feel for you, no one wants you to suffer, but hurling abuse at the unempowered service advisors wont get your car fixed.

Good luck

[beep beep sri]

computers are never 100% corect so maybe just maybe the tech 2 is wrong. i had to ring and ring holden to do my gearbox linkages that every barina has had fail and the best i ended up with was me paying labour. its crap that i had to pay anything as its such a common problem there should have been a recall but holden will only do something if they are forced to do it. goodluck with your claim but i doubt you will get it done for free if they offer to supply parts and you pay labour you may just have to swallow your pride. also when people that i know are looking at buying a new car with my experience of holden i tell them to buy a mazda 3 or a toyota

[lucy]

Just to let you know I'm 'not' actually ranting an raving, if this was happening to you, I'm sure you would be doing the exact same thing as me, but just to let you know, the 'office of fair trading' is all over my case and are happy to help...

[DirtyHarry]

you could take holden to the dispute tribunal. but i dont think the case will begood for you if holden produced a record of your ecu with over reving.

[Mr T]

Just to let you know I'm 'not' actually ranting an raving, if this was happening to you, I'm sure you would be doing the exact same thing as me, but just to let you know, the 'office of fair trading' is all over my case and are happy to help...

About the ranting and raving - I was referring to other peoples calls to do so.

To let you know about fair trading, we get at least 15 referrals to Dept Fair of Trading per year that end up in tribunal...we have never lost - not because we are bullies that bring 5 lawyers along, but because we are right. The general public has this stereotype about crook car dealers that is grossly untrue (in general) The motor trade has the strictest guidelines of all retail industries and the MTA who are supposed to work for us, in fact make life so much harder because they favour the client.

You have the right to question their decision to warrant you, but as a senior manager at a multi site franchise in Sydney I know that EVERY dealership wants a good name and I know that with the evidence they have you are up the creek...

I hope, as I am sure everyone on this forum hopes that you get your car fixed, but I highly doubt that it will eventuate without the cost being born on you.

I hope you succeed but I wanted to give you an insider’s perspective.

[lucy]

well I might be a little chicky, but I know my right's, an I know I'm in the right and there in the wrong, so like I said, I'll push this till the admite that they are wrong, obviously I can see why you are a senior manager, because you kinda sound like the rest of them, no affence... ( thats just what they sound like.)

[DirtyHarry]

Mr T,
i think your wrong about car dealers. Just about every service department i know of, and coming from first hand experience with my fathers holden commodore. They are a bunch of crooks. For example, they charge you for a oil filter, yet they dont replace it. they just drain it and put the old one back on. I experienced this first hand and had other people i know have experienced it at other dealers as well.
Alot of servicing departments take people for a ride, because they know most people dont understand how cars and engines work. Its quite sad, that i had to experience this from a well known holden dealer. i didnt expect it aswell (i would have expected it from a mechanic down the road.)
Fight on Lucy.

[Mr T]

Mr T,
They are a bunch of crooks. For example, they charge you for a oil filter, yet they dont replace it. they just drain it and put the old one back on. I experienced this first hand and had other people i know have experienced it at other dealers as well.


That sort of behaviour is unexceptable, in that situation I would (if I were you) take all the evidence and report it to the Distributor/Manufacturer. A few of these complaints and the dealer chances having his franchise agreement revoked.

When I worked at Yamaha Motor Australia, I received several compliants about a dealer. After investigating this for several months and sending in mystery shoppers, I sacked him - end of story!

LOL at Lucys comment... "I can see why you are a senior manager, because you kinda sound like the rest of them"

[lucy]

Like i said Mr T no affence but you do sound just like them, you are all to busy trying to keep you 1.5 million $ contracts, or holden even bigger, but when it come's down to chump change, $3500, they don't wont a bar of it, but I intend to be persistante.
life is still the same, the 'Rich steeling from the Poor'.
Thank you dirty harry, I will fight on...

[DirtyHarry]

well i did call holden...great help they were.. they said to get in contact with the dealer. did that, and they did the next service for free.
but either way it still acceptable.

[beep beep sri]

has the head been pulled off it yet? or is the compresion test good enough for the dealer? pi$$es me off when they claim that you have done something but they havent pulled it down to prove it. just like when midas did my zorst i took it back 5 times to have it re-done called head office who pretty much said to bad take it to another midas wich i had done and none of them knew what they where doing

[Nem]

Just for good will and the simple fact of the age of the vehicle I would have expected to have this matter sorted and fixed without too much question. The car isnt an old bomb and it would be worth them resolving it ASAP for the public perception of the reliability of the Holden brand name and their quality backup service. I hope the unreliable dealerships are named when this is all over.

[lucy]

as soon as this is all over I wil let you all know who the dealer ships are, I don't want any one else to get f**ked over.
i still am left in the lertch, when it went to the first dealer they done a compression test and said that there were three cylinders with no compression and one with low compression, they stuct the tech 2 in and a code came up, and they took the tapet cover off to look at the tappets or something like that. although I had asked them to pull it apart further to see the full extent of the damage and they refussed to saying that the info they had was good enough. when we questioned them about the clutch (which we lost when it all happened on the high way), they had no idea about it, and the next day it was fixed and they wont tell me how.
but to try and prove that the car went back to first they took another car with the same enginefor a drive and forcably got it in to first and they weren't even doing the same speed, so i feel as though that proved nothing, due to the fact i was doing more then 5500rpm when it happened, and he was only doing 4rpm and he said it took 3-4 seconds to get in.
so I had it taken to another dealer in brissy and they said they would do all they coudl, 'but', all they could tell me was that there are 8 bent valves and the pistons are slightly damaged, but to them it could be f**ked but alright to pass. but when i asked about the valve springs if they had hair cracks or if the head was f**ked, they coulded tell me much besides the valves are broken...
I just want this problem to be resolved so I can have my car back.

[NUTTTR]

Lucy,
To be honest with you - Opel advised that your car was not from the affected cars - however it may be possible there was.... but if the clutch went (wtf?) and they said "engine overspeed" meaning overrevved, then that's a close and shut case IMHO... the clutch would be jammed or burned from dropping it into first at high speed.... to be honest the one way to tell would be pull apart the gearbox and look at the first gear syncho's.... they should be badly scored or burned if you did go to first (cars really really hate that at high speed)... To have stuffed the engine (you need an almost complete rebuild by the sound of it) you need to do "something" usually.... Getting them to admit it is faultly would be hard... if they EVER fix it (not trying to shoot you down, i'm just into reality checks and all) it will be a "good will" thing of them doing it as it was an unusual situation.... new car, etc, etc.... I mean, i drive all my cars hard (very) and never had a problem like that.... but then again this stuff can happen... to break 3 sets of valves at once the timing belt could have jumped some teeth... which would have happened had you jammed it to first and dropped the clutch.... cam belt jumps, jams valves into pistons then jams clutch, gearbox, etc from moving...???

Aaron

[astra03]

Hi Lucy, sad to hear that no real action has happened with your car. Have you been in touch with Holden head office in Brisbane? I know what you are going through, went through a similar ongoing situation with a brand new car (not Holden) some years back. I rang their head office so much I think the switch girl knew me by first name. They eventually sent someone from Brisbane head office to the dealership, were we all stood in the car park. Eventually they directed the dealer to do certain work. I think this needs to happen with your case. Get the field rep to come out and inspect the vehicle and DIRECT the dealership to do some work.

I have discussed your issue with my father who has been a motor mechanic for 60 years of his life and "seen and done that" in all sorts of issues. He says that they should lift the motor out onto the bench and slowly and methodically check the belts and the valve timing etc BEFORE they even think about pulling the head off. Also they need to check if the rev limiter did work, if it did, how did it get to 7200rpm as they say? I would think the rev limiter would be set at around 6500-6700???

After they check to see that the belt hasnt jumped and all of the rest of the belt system is ok, then pull the head off. For God's sake they can guess and assume all they like, but they have to go through the motions of pulling the head off to see what the damage is. Then at least when they do both yourself and they will have some starting point to go on with, in as far as negotiating warranty claims etc etc.


Stick with it, but the time has come to start rattling their cages a lot louder, tell them to stop pointing fingers and get on with diagonising it!!

[sri05]

Lucy are you a member of RACQ or NRMA?
If so ask them to intercede on your behalf

[lucy]

I have asked holden about the sycros and they couldent tell me any thing because like I said befor, they have only looked at the head, when I asked about them they said, they didn't need to do any more work on it to diagnosie it, but they should have at lest pulled the gear box apart to prove it was put into first, because the first gear syncro would be burnt out, but any body knows if you put a car into first, from second gear, doing more then 5500rpm 70-80km, then they car would lock up on the road, and been a jolt or it would have skidded, but none of that actually happened, they car reved it's tit's out, the clucht was gone, then when I pulled it out of gear it stalled, we rolled to the side of the road and the car wouldn't start.
so really they have to do something to fix it, I know if I was in there shoes I probly would try and say to the customer driver error, but they still haven't proved any thing all they have is a code an I have a lot more behind me, so I do intened to hassel them till something gets done with it an they decied to fix it, but I know that wont be for a very long time, so all I can do is start saving to get it fixed, it probly wont be back on the road till the end of febuary. But I'll still be pushen them and hasseling them, untill we can come to some kind of agree ment with the car.

[lucy]

Lucy are you a member of RACQ or NRMA?
If so ask them to intercede on your behalf


No I already went to AAMI an asked them, they asked if the car was damaged an I told them no, so they said they wont cover it.

[sri05]

No Lucy this is not the insurance companies but the motoring clubs (breakdown assistance etc). They have a technical advisory service and they represent you in disputes with repairers.

[EL BURITO]

Lucy u got accsess to road side assistance wen you bought the car but i am not sure wether they would help and go up aggainst there employer but on the other had the dealership is only a franchise and the Assistance is provided by holden head office and not the dealerships. Give the RACQ a ring tomorrow and see what they say its worth a shot.

[lucy]

they guy who came and got my car when it broke down, after I rang road side assistance, didn't have a look at it, it went straight to the RACQ for 2 nights then went straight to holden on that monday morning.
But really i should give them a call and see what they say???
Also I dont think that would do me any good, but i supose I could give it a shot, it's worth a try!!!

[lucy]

just thought i'd let you all know how it is going, it is not as good as i would hope but better then nothing. I had the car taken to the dealer were i brought it & they are mor then happy to assist although they have told me that they are only going to give me the parts for the price they pay for them & they aren't going to charge me by the hour to fix it, as I can not afford the cost of the damage, I have decided that to have my car back on the road ASAP, I will have to refinance my loan, (that really sucks!!!) just so I can afford it, I don't know about you guy's but i sure as hell don't have $4500 sitting in my back pocket.... any way's he'll be back on the road in no time, it's just that it's been nearly five weeks since, I had him, and it feels like he's not really mine anymore....... =(
I'll give you all another update when i find out any more....

Lucy

[lucy]

Just so you all know how it is coming along, I thought I would give you an update.
Well the car is back together & running, I was told from one of the other dealers that there was 8 bent valaes, actually there is 16, so they have been replaced and it has all been put back together. Although I tried telling holden when the car got there that the clutch was broken (but they wouldn't listen), so after refinacing my loan (haven't yet signed the papers) and the car being put back together, they told me I had no clutch, & it has been blowen apart. They also in formed me that one of the engine mounts is broken apart, so now rather then this costing me, $4000 the price is just sky rocketing to the roof....
I highly doubt my car will be back on the road for a long time....
But when it is all finished I will let you all know.

Lucy

[pred8r]

just a few random thoughts but these are fly by wire, so with the ecu controlling throttle which is seems to do quite happily at low speed, wouldnt you assume that it did it at other times too?

Id be curious as the the rev limiter limit, i know on the few occasions ive hit mine its a fairly hard hit, so is it fuel or spark cut, either way if it is factory enabled for 6500, HOW could an computer controlled and revlimited engine exceed that limit anyway?

Basically, how could you overrev hard enough to explode a clutch, smash a gearbox and bend all the valves if its computer controlled anyway?

not that there will be much left and that even if it was the dealer 'may' dispose of those parts. What holds the clutch engaged that could have crapped itself? this would indicate a mechanical/manufacturing part failure(BING!! warranty light goes on) as its not something a user has control over.

[auzvectra]

cheaper fix for the engine mount, get a powerflex 1 about $80 (if it's only rubber that's stuffed)
as for clutch, u might be able to get clutch plate only from holden, wont be too much, if they say the whole kit, then impost 1 from courtney's uk or sumpting, keeping in mind these would both void warranty.
if ur worried about warranty.

[auzvectra]

by the way, what exactly have they changed for this 4K, i know they charge about $100 an hr for labour, but what parts?
did they change the pistons, or just the valves ect?
i think u mentioned somewhere that they said the pistons were damaged.

[pred8r]

You said the car revved its head off, but didnt lock front wheels (i used to love sliding sideways under compression lock in my 200B) - to me this means it dropped out of gear into neutral, not first.

here we go, just had a thought, is this what happened?
you were cruising along at 100kmh with CRUISE CONTROL on, the car dropped out of gear (NFI how, maybe a clutch failure!! that caused the drop from gear), cruise detects the speed drop but because no clutch pedal was used the cruise doesnt disengage and proceeds to rev the engine (over-revving, doesnt explain 7200 considering revlimiter though) to maintain the speed you were doing. Damaging the engine. You pull it into shift linkages into neutral and the clutch falls apart.

No error codes eg faulty cruise(clutch switch, whatever) - it wasnt, it just tried to do its job.

Either way its a very hard case of cause and effect. Ask for ALL components replaced to be given back to you, so you can have them examined. But considering it will have happened so quickly.....

Get a GM guy to drive you, cruise on at 100km/h, when hes not looking, jam it in neutral, then ask then to see what damage thay have.

[Mr T]

Pred8r:
I think the issue here is that the vehicle was placed into 1st gear by mistake when 3rd gear was desired. (thats what the original dealer claims anyway).
From here the engine was forced to a speed in excess of 7200rpm, subsequently the values bent causing the engine to cease. The car is still moving with the clutch engaged, 1st gear engaged but the engine ceased, causing the clutch to slip until the vehicle came to rest. This would be the cause of the burnt clutch.

[auzvectra]

but she said decintegrated clutch, not burnt clutch.

[NUTTTR]

Pretty much, stock clutches aren't meant for what was most likely 8000+rpm.... sudden force plus that much spinning wouldn't be good for it...

[lucy]

I haven't actually been to the dealer yet, but all I know is that i have 16 bent valaes i needed to replace them, I got a new head, a new clutch (as the other one was blowen apart) and new engine mount's. I only paid $50 an hour for holden to work on my car, plus their cost on all the part's (or so they say)
I have requested to have all the broken parts to be keeped as I will be having someone inspect them. I have also spoken to many dealer's and they have said it's a fuel spike, so here is what I think has happened.
I took off in first, then cahsnged to seconded, when I changed to thrird the clutch had to much presser and f*#ked it's self, making a fuel cut, when the fuel cut back in, the car over reved, due to to much fuel, braking the valves and braking the engine mount's....
But what holden is now saying, it look's like I have down shifted to the wrong gear because of the broken engine mount's. But who know's they could be right, or I could be right, we'll only know when I have some body other then holden inspect the damage of the vehical.....
I will keep you all up dated on this issuse, because I will get to the end of it aventually.......

Lucy

[NUTTTR]

TBH lucy, that sort of damage would be overreving... there's not really anything else conceivable that would cause it... As to WHY you selected the wrong gear... if it WAS a "broken" mount, it's possible, but it would have broken when you were taking off as it was fine before that, again, possible, but a broken mount (especially as how hard and thick they are, i haven't broken one in my astra SRi 2.2L and i drive it pretty hard and have hard gear changes), would point to some form of abuse - they may - however - refund the cost of the mount, which would be a consolation.... not much... but to break the valves, i.e. more than one, it is a pretty big something that cause the problem
Aaron

[auzvectra]

i can c what nuttr is sayn bout something big to do the vavles, i woulda said maybe the timing belt snapped to do all 16.
as for the code saying it went to 7200, mine has had the same code, n i know mine hasnt been that high, 6800 is as high as it goes.
so the code must just mean u hit rev limiter.

[sri05]

i can c what nuttr is sayn bout something big to do the vavles, i woulda said maybe the timing belt snapped to do all 16.
as for the code saying it went to 7200, mine has had the same code, n i know mine hasnt been that high, 6800 is as high as it goes.
so the code must just mean u hit rev limiter.

This and several previous posts which refer to the rev limiter are missing the point.
A rev limiter can only limit revs on acceleration (usually by cutting fuel supply)

With forced deceleration (by selecting a lower gear ratio) the rev limiter can not physically stop the engine from over-revving as the road wheel speed through the drivetrain spins the crankshaft.

It is a fairly simple formula:

revs x gear ratio = road speed

so
if you have a much higher road speed x the same gear ratio = much higher revs

[auzvectra]

sorry sri05, please re-read my post!
i was saying that mine has had the same code come up, and that mine hasnt hit 7200rpm!!!
i was sittn there readn the tech 2 with the guy.
so i was saying that this code must aply to the rev limiter being hit, not 7200rpm, as the code simply says, "engine overspeed"

[sri05]

I'm sorry Matt I didn't mean to upset you or doubt anything you said but I just selected your post as a quote because it was the last one mentioning "rev limiter" and when you said "6800 is as high as it goes".

Maybe I should have selected an earlier post which suggested that the rev limiter should have prevented an engine overspeed .

I was just drawing attention to the fact that a rev limiter is not a magic protector for the engine in all situations.

Maybe Podger (or other Holden mechanic) could say if the error code is generated when the engine reaches the rev limiter, although I would not expect that would be the case.

:)

[auzvectra]

yeah thats k, no hard feelings.

[Nem]

you could take holden to the dispute tribunal. but i dont think the case will begood for you if holden produced a record of your ecu with over reving.
They'd have to prove that it was Lucy doing the over-revving. But she's paying to get her car fixed anyhow. Basically she's been forced into fixing it herself at this stage. :(

[pred8r]

I had a car fixed/roadworthied by a mechanic who was going to 'keep me informed of the end price', when the car was fixed, i still had no repair costs, but was told 'take the car, well send invoice to you', if the car was over $1500 to repair i would have scrapped it (ZJ fairlane) as it was only worth $2k in parts unrepaired.

Wasnt i suprised when the bill was $2600, i refused to pay saying they never gave me a quote, which they didnt.

It went to tribunal, but how i lost considering they were done without my informed consent amazed me (and the ombudsman when i complained to him).

So ultimately i went to court and still ended up owing the $2600 for repairs because it was not their fault (WTF?!?!), so be careful because their decision is final and there is no appeal.....unless you go supreme court, mega bucks.....

edit: one of the repairs was a reco tranny which blew up the next day, because 'I thrashed it' in their words.

[GeeeAus]

Firstly, hi all, this is Geee’s other half hijacking his name, so please don’t flame him for what I have to say.

I’ve been reading through this thread (obviously) and after thinking it over for a while I have decided that yes, I am unconvinced.

I don’t know about anyone else, but going through from start to finish and after sifting through to get the basic nuts and bolts, what we are left with is this:

a/ Lucy’s own post containing the letter from Vauxhall highlights Lucy’s car was not affected by a recall or a rework.

b/ Kirssn’s post also seems to highlight Australia’s shipment of cars were little affected and those that were, were Astras fixed before any consumer received them.

c/ This would be why “….yesterday when I rang holden and asked them about it they had no idea what I was talking about???” & “Just rang Holden customer assistance they did not know WTF i was talking about”: because there weren’t any regarding Lucy’s car.

d/ Even if it were included in a recall/rework:

“Subject: Z18XE/L engine - No compression because of a broken valve spring
Complaint: No compression on one cylinder and/or misfire (DTC P030X) is detected beause of a broken valve spring.
Cause: Small hair cracks on the valve spring causes the spring breakage. This failure occurs at early mileage.”

The above would suggest to me that the problem would have been a loss of compression and/or a misfire on one cylinder. Granted, it may not be entirely improbable for this to happen to all cylinders.

But the point is the only recall/rework in existence that may have affected Lucy’s car would have resulted in misfiring and or loss of compression either at start up, or possibly all of a sudden whilst driving along.

This would not result in the extent of the damage described; nor would the breaking valve spring/s and resulting complaints cause the engine to “rev its tits off” when a gear is selected or force selection of an incorrect gear thus resulting in said damage.

Broken valve springs as a result of defects don’t result in disintegrated clutches and broken engine mounts.

Speaking of broken engine mounts; as NUTTTR suggested it’s possible a broken mount was not in fact part of the end damage but the cause of it; i.e. it resulted in enough engine shift that when third was selected first was engaged.

However I have driven a car with a broken engine mount on the gearbox side and trust me you would know about it. If not what precisely was wrong, that something was because the engine jumps around like a yippie bean and the car slams when you change down or take off quick. If the mount was already broken it would probably come back to the driver in Holden’s eyes anyway because you don’t just let something like that go until bad things happen in a new car.

On that note the engine in that car of ours moves a lot with that broken mount and needless to say has never resulted in a shift so great I ended up in first instead of third.

So it seems to me we are left with the following regarding Lucy’s car:

Lucy drives off “fairly quickly in first”, to use her own words; she then changes to second, no probs, then third (supposedly). All of a sudden we have an engine over revving to buggery; to stop this, she yanks it out of gear and the car stalls.

Now we have:

- One broken engine mount

- One disintegrated clutch

- Four pistons damaged to varying degrees (it would seem)

- Sixteen bent valves (or eight, I’m not entirely clear on how many were actually bent vs what was just replaced cause the whole lot was naffed anyway).

- One engine over speed fault code

- And who really knows what else

As NUTTTR pointed out, overmuch damage for any single fault or even (if you want to stretch things a bit) two separate faults occurring at once.

Even if, for argument’s sake, we say the timing belt jumped a tooth or teeth and or snapped at the same time as a gear selection being made, revs would be lost, not jump sky high.

The only real thing that could result in that particular combination and extent of damage is hitting a gear way too low for the speed of the wheels on the road. Thus the “engine over speed” which, by the way, sounds entirely credible when coupled with what happened to the engine.

Thank you to sri05 for finally pointing out that the rev limiter aint gonna do s**t for you if too low a gear is selected as “A rev limiter can only limit revs on acceleration (usually by cutting fuel supply)

With forced deceleration (by selecting a lower gear ratio) the rev limiter can not physically stop the engine from over-revving as the road wheel speed through the drivetrain spins the crankshaft.”

As to the fuel theory, a rev limiter coming into effect could cut fuel by the sound of it, so maybe the fuel supply was interrupted, if it was doing far enough over 5500 revs i.e. hitting the rev limiter. But if fuel supply all of a sudden returned, too much fuel at once is only really going to flood the engine, resulting in it just stalling. Unless maybe the butterfly was wide open at the same time (foot flat) and we are back to too low a gear for the speed anyway.

Finally, at 70 - 80km/h, you wouldn’t necessarily skid and jump when the engine suddenly hits first from the top of second. Therefore, it’s a flimsy argument to suggest that because it didn’t skid the wrong gear selection can’t have been made.

No, I’m sorry, it doesn’t wash with me. I think someone was just doing it all a bit quick for whatever reason and hit the angel gear. Now they are looking for someone else to blame because they have an expensive problem on their hands.

A bit of advice to Lucy would be to get things like drive shafts inners looked at, even if it wasn’t your fault, ‘cause what happened is almost sure to damage things like that. A lot of things would have been stressed in that situation.

Last but not least I apologise if I am wrong, but something just doesn’t gel to me.

[lucy]

GeeeAus

(No, I’m sorry, it doesn’t wash with me. I think someone was just doing it all a bit quick for whatever reason and hit the angel gear. Now they are looking for someone else to blame because they have an expensive problem on their hands.
Last but not least I apologise if I am wrong, but something just doesn’t gel to me.)


thanks for your input, it is nice to know what people think.... now I'm not going to go off because you have already apologised.

What I do want to say is that even though you may think all of this, I'am not trying to find somebody else to blame, if I knew I was in the wrong, I wouldn't be so pissed off with the whole situation.

The other thing, I find this rather annouying due to the fact that holden had actually pulled my engine apart to find a noise in the engine that I was complaining about, just 6 weeks prier to this incident happening. They have

-removed all parts to access timing belt, replaced both idlers
-found cam gear warped and wearing belt on edge, replaced gear and belt
-swap exhaust manifolds and cat converter from donnor SRi, then swapped back
-swap all cam gear, crank gear and tensioner from donnor vehical, then swapped back
-adjust timing belt several times, tighter then loser
-swap harmonic balancer, swap back
-remove all cam, crank gears and engine mounts and inspect rear cover for damage/ wear, marks ok, refit cam crank etc
-remove all cam gears, idler and rear cover, remove exhaust system, remove engine mounts and suport engine, remove engine sump and oil pick up.
-oil pump replaced, reseal sump and reassemble engine, refit all parts removed.

What it was was the oil pump had a burr on it so they ended up replacing
-belt-toothed
-gear
-gear CM/SHF TMG
-seal ring
-oil pump
(for what they had pulled apart I don't think it was a huge problem, as it was the oil pmp.)


That was just the short version of what holden had done to my car in a matter of a week and a half, so maybe, I'm pissed off because they may not haven't put it back to gether properly and that is why it f**ked up (you never know), the only dealer who was more then happy to help, is the dealer who had done all this work to the car in the first place. They could also just want to help I know.

If you just put all that in to context aswell you might see it could have been faulty machanic work or anything, because I know for a fact that my car did not go back to first, I don't know how many times I have to say that but I'll say it again,

"My car did NOT go back to first..."

Sorry to be to the point but this situation really pisses me off, but I do thank you for you point of veiw.

Lucy

[pred8r]

I agree with you that something stuffed up, not the driver.

Realistically, how many have been built?It COULD happen to just one.
Point is GM will blame the driver anyway. (Unless you are a 100+ fleet manager and its YOUR personal car, a person of influential and financial power or you either are, or are married to, a service manager.
If you buy just one car its a case of Meh! let the owner pay for it. As a SMALL customer you are not economically viable to have the car repaired under warranty or at the retailers cost.

[auzvectra]

-adjust timing belt several times, tighter then loser


this is interesing, i wonder how loose?
if u were accelerating in 2nd backed off (to select third) slack in the timing belt could cause backlash, n wipe out the valves, or jump off and the pistons eat the valves, or just skip teeth n eat the valves, this locking the motor, could simutaineously decintergrate the clutch and destroy the engine mount.
just a theory, but i beleive very feasable.

[lucy]

Quick question to GeeeAus...

Are you an enginer or a computer technician?

[GeeeAus]

Hi Lucy

No I'm afraid I am but a mere computer technician. ☹ The hugs and kisses is the engineer. ☺

Specifically she has an associate diploma in mechanical engineering, 1997 University of SA (Whyalla Campus)

She actually posted the reply, and it says so on the first line.

"Firstly, hi all, this is Geee’s other half hijacking his name, so please don’t flame him for what I have to say."

We both love GM 4-cylinder cars, specifically "J' platform cars like Camira, & Vectra. We've been collecting them for a while now. Resorting them is a bit of a passion.

What’s an enginer.....?

As for position held, not sure really, probably on top, but depends how I feel.....

Just a joke of course ☺

Tell me Lucy, is it your contention that a person must make money out of repairing/designing cars for them to be in a position to understand them?

The term “Position Held” would suggest to me that you are asking about my employment.

If so you should probably stop seeking advice here, as I’m sure many posters are engaged in employment outside the automotive technical field. Fewer still would be engineers, as the study sucks and costs a fortune. Many here are just enthusiasts like myself.

If an engineer is what you want, you should seek the advice of the Holden dealer.

GeeeAus

[Mr T]

If you buy just one car its a case of Meh! let the owner pay for it. As a SMALL customer you are not economically viable to have the car repaired under warranty or at the retailers cost.

That’s a very pessimistic view of the economy...

...You see for the average motor dealership to stay in business they need at least 1000 new customers per year, this makes it very expensive to market the organisation, it is therefore fundamental to maintain a reputation of good service.

In addition, Retailers don’t pay for repairs, the manufacturer does and the manufacturer doesn't and won’t discriminate about who the customer is, apart from retaining their own reputation they are legally obligated due to their advertisement of 3years/100,000KM warranty.

The retailer can only follow guidelines set out in their dealer agreement. If the repair is not a warrantable item they have no obligation to fix the problem free of charge and anyone that expects a free meal should have a good hard look at them selves.

[GeeeAus]

Not sure about this, have to confirm with her grace when she gets home.


Quote From Lucy.
"-adjust timing belt several times, tighter then loser"

It is my understanding; that it is not possible to loosen the "disposable" tensioner on the Z18XE. I can find no procedure for doing so in our TIS CD-ROM manual covering this engine.

The software mentions a “REMOVAL TOOL”, but does not list any slackening procedure.

“IF” that is the case, and I will check further to confirm, slackening of the tensioner could not have occurred.

GeeeAus
The Computer Technician Who Likes On Top Best.

[lucy]

I wasn't actually asking for advice merely othere people's opinion, which I have recived, Thank you. As for specking to holden, they are all just 'enthusiasts' just like your self, because half the time they don't know what there talking about. Seen's though my car has been to 3 different holdens and I have had 3 different answer about my car.
As for your emplyment i don't really care what you do I was merely asking a question you have just taken it the wrong way...
Oh and by the way, I didn't 'flame' him I was merely voicing my opinion, just like you have done.
As for '-ajusting timing belt tighter and losser', you don't think it is possible, so rather then getting the information of your TIS CD ROM manual, why don't you ring holden tech and ask if it is possible, then you'll get the information from the horse's mouth...

Lucy

[GeeeAus]

Quoted From Lucy
As for '-ajusting timing belt tighter and losser', you don't think it is possible, so rather then getting the information of your TIS CD ROM manual, why don't you ring Holden tech and ask if it is possible, then you'll get the information from the horse's mouth...


Lucy, the TIS manual is the source of technical information, specifications and procedures used by Holden/Opel/VX themselves. This is the same source that Holden service uses to reference works done on all Opel sourced vehicles, which of course includes yours.

Getting the Information from the TIS "IS" getting it from the horses head. More so than getting it from the word of mouth of the dealer, as the dealer will merely query the TIS for the information and then try to pass it on.

The TIS is the "OFFICIAL" technical reference for all GM made small cars that hail from Opel. It even contains a number of field remedies. In a previous communication you say you had with VX, these were called "reworks". It also cover “recallable” faults. This is how the Holden dealer can say what vehicles are affected by the valve spring issue this thread is supposed to cover.

If it is your contention that the Holden dealer either doesn't understand what has gone wrong with your car, or is being deliberately dishonest in the reporting of their findings, the TIS manual is "THE BEST AND MOST COMPREHENSIVE" means of finding out what known issues exist with your vehicle.

At the risk of sounding rude - NOT MY INTENTION, you seem to be clutching at straws now, and your lack of experience is evidenced in your posts.

GeeeAus

[lucy]

thanks for your input but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't get involved any more seen's though I don't really feel as though your input means a great deal any way.... but thanks for your help, with nothing.......
oh and as for my lack of experiance, every one has to start some were love... as for me clutching on to straws, you can stick it were the sun don't shine, because if you were in my shoes, you would be doing the same thing if you knew you weren't in the wrong, as I know I'm not in the wrong....
Thanks for all you help, and it wasn't my intention on rude either, but it seem's it has turned out that way.


Lucy

[GeeeAus]

Agreed.

I apologize for my poor manners, and hope you and all the parties concerned get to a satisfactory resolution of the problem.

GeeeAus

[pred8r]

That’s a very pessimistic view of the economy...

edited bits out

The retailer can only follow guidelines set out in their dealer agreement. If the repair is not a warrantable item they have no obligation to fix the problem free of charge and anyone that expects a free meal should have a good hard look at them selves.

Yes it is but the dealer and manufacturer are in the trade for ONE reason, money. Helping people is for volunteer organisations.

Those guide lines would be along the following;
is the fault/failure due to;
a)mechanical failure, Manufacturing fault/Assembly issue (warrantable repair)
b)Mechanical failure, wear and tear (@owners cost)
c)abuse (@owners cost)

In this case you have all the evidence you need (7200rpm fault code logged) to ASSUME c. There is no need to look at ANY of the others even as possibilities, B) is out due to vehicles age and A) none of our cars have EVER had a clutchfailure or whatever could possibly ever cause such an internal driveline catastrophe as this, especially when we had it apart a few weeks earlier to look at, and we put things back together all proper like, so this one is completely, not even remotely, our fault.

I got stitched by my GM dealer when i bought my 'certified' SRi, the rims on it(guttered) were not the original ones as displayed when on the lot(perfect) and it was also given a full RWC, which it passed, with no rear headrests(because it doesnt come with them, yeah right). The rims were MY fault for being guttered (no proof according to them), more like for taking delivery of the car without knocking it back for being swapped, but when informed about the RWC REQUIREMENT of headrests(when the provision was there) they managed to fix that issue REAL fast and were so nice and apologetic about it too. My dealer also said XC didnt have dashmats because of their dual airbags, when I asked for 'freebies' when purchasing, but another GM dealer had no problems finding something that wasnt made, at full price of course.

I have also been told by service dept to not use my fixed price servicing as all i'll get is an oilchange, not a by-the-book as FPS are not cost effective to perform, at that price, by the workshop. He put it in no uncertain terms that this is what the case would be.

Unfortunately with excitement of a new car, dealers know they can get away with a few things MOST times, some they will 'have overlooked' and are sorry and the rest is the customers fault, my rims being an example.

I bet if i ever got pulled for unroadworthy because of the headrests theyd have said they were in it when it was delivered.


I can understand it completely from a retailers(thats exactly what you are) point of view as to covering your a$$ to stop from being ripped blind by all and sundry, but every now and then a little give is required to keep customers on side.


Its just sad that peoples enjoyment and the experience of a 'new' car can be completely destroyed because of something not their fault, and others will willingly let those things continue to happen. (but it would never happen to these people as they have 'mates' in the trade)

I wonder if the same dealers would have 'no idea' if lucy offered to trade the unknown-to-what-extent damaged sri in on a brand spanker, what they would have offered not knowing the damage, and more to the point who would have foot the bill then when it come to them repairing to sell it.

Yes, pesimistic AND skeptical

[Mr T]

but it would never happen to these people as they have 'mates' in the trade


That’s actually quite interesting...Wattie's mate (whom I have met several times) rang me once to ask if I could help him, his car was in our work shop and a problem on his A/C condenser was proven to be from a stone chip, no warranty...I again told him, Hyundai wont be paying for it, If he didn't pay for it, it would be left up to me to pay for it and that wasn't going to happen.

So Dave paid for it...no strings, no favours, no lies...!!!

I should note that my role in this organisation is Business Development Manager, one of my duties is to handle customer complaints of which I have a 'Goodwill Budget' - even a mate didn't qualify for this because it was blatantly un-warrantable.

[kirssn]

That’s actually quite interesting...Wattie's mate (whom I have met several times) rang me once to ask if I could help him, his car was in our work shop and a problem on his A/C condenser was proven to be from a stone chip, no warranty...I again told him, Hyundai wont be paying for it, If he didn't pay for it, it would be left up to me to pay for it and that wasn't going to happen.

So Dave paid for it...no strings, no favours, no lies...!!!

I should note that my role in this organisation is Business Development Manager, one of my duties is to handle customer complaints of which I have a 'Goodwill Budget' - even a mate didn't qualify for this because it was blatantly un-warrantable.


i have to totally agree here - my other half works for holden and we've come across a few things of late which are wrong with the car. they are faults which someone who doesnt know much would say are required to be repaired under warranty but they're not and I have to pay for them myself. a few people i know keep saying well he should just fix it for you when it's in there for other warranty work - no can do, what the faults are require labour - and well, warranty wont pay. i'm not going to complain though because as Mr T's post above says, some thigns are just blatantly un-warrantable.

[auzvectra]

hey geeeaus, i take it u have the hardware key for the "TIS 2000"?
am most isnt accessable without it, is it?
if so, geve me a copy please :D

[pred8r]

I should note that my role in this organisation is Business Development Manager, one of my duties is to handle customer complaints of which I have a 'Goodwill Budget' - even a mate didn't qualify for this because it was blatantly un-warrantable.
That budget is to cover the grey area in between warranty work and wear and tear, where the problem isnt quite a distinctive one yes?

I agree with the bit about watties mate, there are higher people up the chain and if these people find out IF or MAYBE you have done a grey area or favourable repair on a 'mate' your job/reputation is toast.

I still stand by my statement where people can get things done, but will amend it to include, if they are in the right position.

I understand your position(and role) completely. Someone you help fix a problem for, will not find/offer you a job if it came to the crunch. It would be a case of "Sheeit, they did what? thats bad luck!" no beer, nothing, except an "oh well"

You stick your neck out.............