Anyone else hate T/C?

[R3N]

I know traction control is a safety feature and all but I can't stand driving with it. Has been raining all week for the last 3-4 weeks, driving through puddles on a straight, I can feel half of the car slowing down (the half that's going through the puddle) and i hate it. What would have happened then if there was no TC?

Thinking of fitting a switch for ages but will do it after exams. I just hate when I don't know what the car is doing or when I don't have control over the car, when TC kicks in the car has a mind of its own.

Anyone else cant stand this?

[auzvectra]

on the veccy i hated it.
on the astra, once u get used to it, u can use it to ur adventage, tis good then.
nothing like known when the esp is gonna kick in, so u can pull a 90 deg corner on a dime.
oh yeah i got esp so prob a bit diff to just tc on the standard astras (i think they got it)

[Rhino]

REN that's got nothing to do with traction control.

That is nothing more than the act of water providing rolling resistance to the tyre and being slowed. So, turning TC off would not have any effect.

Traction control comes into effect when there is wheel spin and loss of traction.

Also, traction control is not really a safety feature, it merely let's you take off under slippery conditions.

[Dave]

TC is over rated....Basicly a false sence of security for ppl who do not know how to drive and control there viechels in a hairy situation, same with ABS heh btw have you ever driven on a muddy or oily rd with abs, forget about breaking you aint got none, use your hand brake and compensat for the slide......nothing beats correct clutch control for wet take off's. Comeing to think of it TC nearly killed me when i rolled my car partly due to TC THX ALOT. Oh yeah the hand brake helps in 90 and 180 1 point turns dude. BUt rhino is right man rolling resistance caused by water. Go faster you might hydro plain, but i wouldnt try it with TC on, come to think of it i wouldnt even drive a car with TC on unless i can kill it 8)

[beep beep sri]

you will find in the dry with a manual with tc off you will take off a lot faster :twisted:

[R3N]

REN that's got nothing to do with traction control.

That is nothing more than the act of water providing rolling resistance to the tyre and being slowed. So, turning TC off would not have any effect.

Traction control comes into effect when there is wheel spin and loss of traction.

Also, traction control is not really a safety feature, it merely let's you take off under slippery conditions.

I always thought that this was to do with TC. Driving in other cars, never really felt this happen, well maybe not as evident as in my Astra.

[Vectracious]

The Traction Control on the Vectra's and Astras is actually quite good I find. It still lets the tyres slip and doesn't sap too much engine power. You want to drive a car with a bad traction control system - try any V6 Ecotec Commodore (not the Alloytech ones).

Ryan, I would have to disagree that its not really a safety feature. Multiple times in the Veccy (for experimental purposes :P ), if I've planted it round a corner with the TC on, the light will flash and the car will go around the corner. If I take the same corner at the same speed with the TC off, the car certainly does understeer more and takes a wider line (and if you fully break traction - you just go straight ahead anyway) - so for people who maybe wouldn't realise the car has started to understeer/or are slow to react to it (eg people who are, let say, getting on in years - who are the majority of Vectra drivers :( ) TC is good.

Dave, can you explain exactly how TC rolled your car? :)

[oneightoo]

TC = hated by me

theres a switch to turn it off in the turbo right? why not in the 2.2l sri?

[Nem]

Any Mark Scaife's out there with lightning reflexes and absolute driving knowledge would be better off without TC and ABS. But for those daily drivers that may not be experienced enough or those that dont have lightning reflexes it really can make the difference between writing themselves off and getting home safely, especially under bad driving conditions.

[Anonymous]

i love traction control cos i need it :mrgreen:

[Namus]

REN that's got nothing to do with traction control.

That is nothing more than the act of water providing rolling resistance to the tyre and being slowed. So, turning TC off would not have any effect.

Traction control comes into effect when there is wheel spin and loss of traction.

Also, traction control is not really a safety feature, it merely let's you take off under slippery conditions.

BAHAHA!!! lol...that's funny....didn't u know that R3N? when u go thru a puddle it 'pulls' it towards the 'inside' (the side of the puddle closest to the edge of the road)....i almost found out the hard way when i was doing 110km/h and misjudged the depth of a puddle....was in the RHL and it almost 'sucked' me into the median wall...

[Namus]

the reason it's more 'noticable' in the Astra is cause it's a FWD probably..

[SmellyTofu]

I like it and I have a switch. Helps you take off quicker in the wet and can never get it to spin in the dry anyway unless I was going around a sharp corner. I don't go driving my car at the fastest speed possible and nor do most other people. If you want to go fast, there is a Wakefield speed free day in early July on Sat. Go have fun there. Not on the public roads. Public roads are made for transportation. Not racing.

Namus, aquaplanning is more pronounced by:
1) low tread depth
2) poor tread pattern
3) less so FWD having a non LSD diff. The gripping side "spins" the car in the direction that the slipping side because it has grip. You get the same effect on a RWD and even less so 4WD.

[R3N]

:oops:

[stevedee3]

My two cents worth...

I've had two cars (both manuals), a JS Vectra with TC and now a ZC CDXi with ESP. Both have had switches to disable the systems, but I've rarely switched them off. Traction control (IMHO) is pretty useless when both driven wheels have equal grip, eg. for straight line acceleration on a wet road. But as Vectracious illustrated, for anything other than straight line acceleration, it can subtly help out when both wheels don't have equal traction or accelerating while steering.

Yes, for straight line acceleration, when a little wheelspin is not a safety issue, TC doesn't help. But I'm generally not in the mood to pretend I'm a racing car driver, and I dare say most people here aren't racing drivers either. (I'm with you here Nem.)

ESP seems to be a remarkable system. I've tried it on bends (where overshooting the corner is not dangerous) and it's amazing how difficult it is to lose control. It effectively can change the cars handling in ways that even an exceptionally skilled driver cannot, since it can choose which wheels to brake. Even the most skilled driver only has one brake pedal. :)

So my ESP/TC switched are only there for when I don't care about control of the vehicle, ie. not very often.

ABS favours car control over minimum braking distance. Similarly, traction control favours car control over absolute maximum acceleration. I know I'd prefer control over absolute maximum acceleration/braking.

Incidentally, does anyone know why you can't switch ESP off over 60km/h?

[SmellyTofu]

To dummy proof the car? (can't even say "i d i o t" around here.. ) I give up on speaking.

[R3N]

Well, this thread proves I have no idea what I am talking about and therefore should not be trusted with your children :P

[Nem]

TC = hated by me
theres a switch to turn it off in the turbo right? why not in the 2.2l sri?
This is easily rectified:
9270597 TRACTION HARNESS (Slimcraigie can get this for you as Holden wanted an Astra SRiT VIN number)
90437527 - TC switch
90437593 - TC panel

I got the switch and the panel from Holden. The loom came from Slim. You may even already be prewired. And the job probably takes between 1/2hr to an hour depending if you know what you're doing.

Plug the loom into pin 31 on your ABS plug. Earth the other wire to the chassis. Mount the plate/button in the car. Wire the button light off the cigarette lighter 12V. There's a grommet on the cable that fits perfectly into the hole in the bulkhead thats behind the drivers side strut tower. You see it when you stand on your head in the footwell and look up.

[Namus]

i have a TC switch in my CD Astra...

[OPC]

i dont hate it... i got a button that says T/C OFF

T/C GOES OFF...T/C GOES ON... OFF / ON / OFF / ON / OFF / ON / OFF / ON / OFF / ON :lol:

[Namus]

lol

[Turblue]

Just about never turn it off. Anything that helps me maintain control is a good thing. I'm happy with it.

[Dave]

lol ok man, i was cruiseing on a shitty rd, went around a bend it was wet with an oil patch, car started to slide out, tc sucked engin power and applyd the breaks which is the last thing you want to happen which prevented me from changing down a gear turning into the slide and atleast fight my way out of the slide b4 hiting the ditch and eventuly rolling. For those who doubght me find a patch of dirt muds even better, then fang around for a bit with TC on and OF you will notice the difference imediatly. dont be afraid to power steer either, ie slideing around a corner while front wheels are spinning clawing for all the traction they can get on a dirt or mud rd. oh yer and if ur arse end flicks out be ready, TC and fishtails dont mix in astras. so pick a safe place guys.

[ecstasy]

my God i'm sorry to tell you that i really don't agree with you in hating it, on the contrary it save me several times specially under wet conditions (when u can't see a pathhole, real depth of water, or oil and water on the road). After doing aquaplanning on a car without this safety feature, you really take it very seriuosly mate (doing and not doing the speed limit, even doing 100km/h turns very scary). In a fraction of seconds you can end your life on the spot. Thus if the car does slow u down for a couple of seconds "annoying" you, well i take it more as a blessing. Remember lost of grip is just around the corner, and it normally happens when we least expect it.

[ecstasy]

Incidentally, does anyone know why you can't switch ESP off over 60km/h?

ESP goes on automatically over 60km/h as a safety feature safety car bureaus force manufacturers to do it, for safety reasons. Only on really sporty cars u might be allowed to disconnect them (porsche, bmw, mercedes) by signing an agreement that is ur responsability yada yada yada and you wont sue their asses. On some cars u can disconnect it only up to 60km/h this is in case u have to drive on a very slippery soil like sand, if u don't disconnect it you will go no where, cause you start going slow and digging yourself further and further (yes personal experience i almost did it once, realised sec before getting bogged and saved the day, this was on a merc). Hope it cleared some doubts.

[auzvectra]

so once u got in trouble u just gave up?
didnt wanna try nething else, no offence meant but maybe some driving experience woulda helped!
personally the only time i turn mine off is when i'n goin in a strait line under full acceleration, i.e. drags / quarter times.
now with the intercooler the increased torque makes it so i gotta turn it off, didnt have to before.

[RapidSRi]

tc is beneficial for sure.
if you are pushing the cars limits and the conditions are average you should expect it to intervene. if it does, and you have not expected it to, then I would say it is probably very beneficial for this person.

naturally there is a potential to drive corners faster without it but even for avid regular drivers (amateurs) it can mean you can push it hard -within reason and depending on your driving skill it will intervene when your limit is met.

without it i would have very little tread left too :lol:

[Dave]

lol i didnt say i didnt try i said it prevented me from doing so.....big difference m8.

[GOZOFF]

I know traction control is a safety feature and all but I can't stand driving with it. Has been raining all week for the last 3-4 weeks, driving through puddles on a straight, I can feel half of the car slowing down (the half that's going through the puddle) and i hate it. What would have happened then if there was no TC?

Thinking of fitting a switch for ages but will do it after exams. I just hate when I don't know what the car is doing or when I don't have control over the car, when TC kicks in the car has a mind of its own.

Anyone else cant stand this?

Meh... after years off droping it at every set of lights my TC has learnt when it should and and shouldn't come on, so my traction control doesn't bother me as much as it did when I 1st got it :oops:

[woody]

Thoguht about fitting a tc switch but never did - give me the sh1ts when i'm taking off and teh tc limits the power (IMHO i feel it is slightly too intrusive, could reduce power slightly leess and allow more slip) but i wouldn;'t be with out it.



TC is over rated....Basicly a false sence of security for ppl who do not know how to drive and control there viechels in a hairy situation, same with ABS


ABS = godsend

Withou my abs there would eb a nissan micra plastered all over the front of my car (it was doing a 3 point turn on a corner and i was coming round the corner marginally faster then i should have been)

Foot + brake pedal + floor + abs = turn and control
foot + floor + pedal - abs = slide

believe me i've driven both an abs equipped car and one without abd in Hairy situations. The one without ended up on it's roof in a ditch the one with saved me having to buy a new car. Go do an advanced drive day and find out how to use your abs - you might change you mind about it. :D

[ecstasy]

so once u got in trouble u just gave up?
didnt wanna try nething else, no offence meant but maybe some driving experience woulda helped!
personally the only time i turn mine off is when i'n goin in a strait line under full acceleration, i.e. drags / quarter times.
now with the intercooler the increased torque makes it so i gotta turn it off, didnt have to before.

Dude when ur doing 200km/h in wet conditions and u hit a patch of water and the car goes sideways onto the other lane i don't think theres much to do bro, not even Ayrton Senna could save it. But geee i guess u must be a really talented driver. Do you do it profesionally? As for the no offence is so over rated.

[R3N]

well, now I know that I don't actually hate TC, its just what I thought was happening was due to TC :oops:

But I still want to have a go at fitting the switch and feel the difference myself. The individual braking of tyres, is that TC or ESP?

[stevedee3]

@ecstacy I understand why the ESP system will always intervene over 60 km/h. What puzzles me is that you cannot disable the system while the car is travelling over 60km/h. ie. you have to slow to below 60km/h before you can switch it off. It doesn't bother me, it just seems like a bizarre restriction.

@R3N, both TC and ESP can apply the brakes.

TC can brake a front (driven) wheel if it is turning faster than it should. I'm not sure whether it's the rate of wheel acceleration or the difference in speed compared to the un-driven (rear) wheels that triggers the system. If this isn't enough to stop the wheel spinning, it can also make the engine reduce it's power output. I'm guessing this is what some people find objectionable.

ESP has a steering angle sensor, so it can tell how fast the driver intends to turn the car. It also has a yaw rate sensor, so it can tell how fast the car is actually turning. If these two don't sense more or less the same values, it means that the car is not obeying the driver's instructions, ie. the driver is not in control. So ESP can brake up to three wheels to try to correct the car's course. Obviously, since the driver only has one brake pedal, they cannot adjust the left/right/front/back braking distribution :wink:. ESP can also reduce the engine power.

Basically TC compensates for wheelspin while ESP compensates for oversteer or understeer. Of course, you're ultimately limited by your tyres, the road, common sense etc. :)

Hope this helps.

[Dave]

you're ultimately limited by your tyres, the road, common sense etc. :)

Hope this helps.


couldnt of put it better my self. One of the resons i prefer it of is so that i can learn the cars tru limits, not a computer generated limit then act accordingly. Im not saying im an expert. But i like some slip and play when driveing, make it feel more real. TC prevents it. im not talking about chirpys and slight slips arounds corners ppl. IE if you rev it to 5k then drop the clutch, the wheels will spin heh of course............ if you corner to fast the car will slide ( well der ) i like to know where the car does it, not TC pull it up.........another thing ive noticed is with TC on it does not help it contributes to over steer on corners if your goin fast enough, the car will just keep going ina straight line IMO but with it of you can turn your wheel and accelerate and pull the car around the corner without to much drift. Hmm i can see my point is wasted on you TC worshipers who think there top shit at driveing like a grandma so i aint gonna say i told you so when it happens to you. Has any one acculy done what i said and found a patch of dirt and tried this? well if not, stop preaching and go and try it, If you are gonna try it but do not know how to kill tc without a switch herse a hint, open your fuse box ( with the car of of course) find the abs fuse and pull it out ( dont start the car and drive it also kills abs the speedo and power steering) turn the ignition to the on position wait for all the light to come on and go of, the only ones left illuminated should be the TC light and ABS light, Turn you ignition of,replace the fuse and start your car, walla TC is disabled untill you turn your car of. ( basicly just exploiting the ecu's fault check start up crap. crude but effective)

[auzvectra]

well thats a pretty tricky way of doin it, i like!
i cant really comment on the tc too much as i have esp, which probably reacts slightly different.
i will say but, esp doesnt like working stability and tracion at the same time, it confuses it!
selected 3rd goin round a corner with esp workn, bit of a chirp, and the car reacts violently, then pulls in nicely.
sorry wasnt really haven a go, wasa just more or less sayn it tc was workn that hard, u mighta been goin a little fast, but what car was that in cause all the tc's are different.
sorry ecstacy, not a profesional, but like to think i can hold my own.
and if u think i'm blown hot air, bring ur sri-t to the racetrack, n c!
(not an agressive retaliation either, just closure)

[ecstasy]

don't have an sri-t dude AH stock as a rock cause i ind out that the only way to go fast and have good trills is on a bike. When i get my zx10r at the end of the year no worries but i guess i will have to use only first gear to give u a chance bro. :D

[auzvectra]

i'm not gonna say bikes arnt quick, cause they are, but they dont handle as good as people think.
with i good set of tyres, and a rear swaybar, i'll take ur challeng!!!
but may have to do it by times (run at different times), cause i dont like speed bumps :lol: .
sorry, talkn to u at broady, i thought u had a sri-t!

[ecstasy]

haha u wish buddy, maybe u could take a slow 250 with a crap rider, but u with ur sr-i got no chance against me on a zx10r, sorry to burst ur bubble. the bike has 170hp on 150kg of weight do the maths. But yeah ur on, we'll do drangs and circuit, no worries. As for the speed bumps, i don't reckon u'll encounter them :lol: U'll have to only worry about the stone chips when i'm lapping u bro :wink:

[auzvectra]

:lol: :lol: :lol: .as i said bikes are quick, like really quick, i would be crazy to think i ever had a chance in a strait line, but put in a few corners, and a big powerful bike like that, and it doesnt handle as well.
most people dont realise that on a tight track, the 250 would probably win!!

[Wattie]

put a bike and a car on a circle track, and car will win, put a bike and a car on some bendies with slow corners, bike win. car can't brake or accelerate as good, but get some consistent esses, look out bike, car change direction better...

cars only have better mid corner speed, thats it... sorry to burst anyones bubble.

[Turblue]

stevedee3...

My reading and research on TC leads me to believe that the brakes are not applied, but power from the engine is throttled. On the SRi T's the BOV is opened to reduce power.

Your understanding of ESP is basically the same as mine. I thought that the YAW sensor measures the lean of the car. This is why a rear swaybar confuses ESP, as it reduces the lean.

[auzvectra]

i think it depends how much u spin, if u really spin, then tc works the brakes, but this may be esp reacting sumhow.

[Clint]

the tc on a vectra doesnt have any control of the brakes at all, and i think that the same on all the cars, astras, barinas calibras, whatever.. its the esp that uses the brakes, the tc just adjusts power to each wheel and lowers engine revs.

[Didz]

don't have an sri-t dude AH stock as a rock cause i ind out that the only way to go fast and have good trills is on a bike. When i get my zx10r at the end of the year no worries but i guess i will have to use only first gear to give u a chance bro. :D

Yeah but when you end up in my OPC grille, would the thrills really be worth it?

bikes are fast, but god damn they're dangerous.

[stevedee3]

@Turblue

As I understand it (of course, I could be wrong), traction control can brake a spinning wheel. The braking of a slipping wheel effectively transfers power to the other driven wheel. I don't see by what other means the TC system can individually control the distribution of engine power between the driven wheels. I think you'll find that the ABS unit is different on cars that have TC.

I think the yaw sensor measures the rotation you see looking down on the car from the top, ie. rotation about a vertical axis through the car. If, by the term "lean", you mean rotation about one of the horizontal axes, I don't think you are correct. I have no idea what effect a rear swaybar has on ESP... By the way, what's a "BOV"?

[Turblue]

@Turblue

As I understand it (of course, I could be wrong), traction control can brake a spinning wheel. The braking of a slipping wheel effectively transfers power to the other driven wheel. I don't see by what other means the TC system can individually control the distribution of engine power between the driven wheels. I think you'll find that the ABS unit is different on cars that have TC.

I think the yaw sensor measures the rotation you see looking down on the car from the top, ie. rotation about a vertical axis through the car. If, by the term "lean", you mean rotation about one of the horizontal axes, I don't think you are correct. I have no idea what effect a rear swaybar has on ESP... By the way, what's a "BOV"?

Well, one of us is correct about tc...!!! My car doesn't feel as though the brakes are applied, more like a severe power drop to control wheelspin.

BOV = Blow Off Valve. A device used to vent pressure from the intake system on a turbocharged car.

You are correct about Yaw.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Yaw,_pitch_and_roll

Thanks for messing up my thought process on this..!!!! :)

[Clint]

im fairly confident on the brakes not being applied, as said it drops engine power and it also has something in the dif to reduce slip

[SmellyTofu]

Clint, there is no LSD in the diff. It's a plain Jane open diff. From what I've been told, the power is cut and in extreme cases, the brakes will hold but I've never felt that. I think this is what the Cross 8 system is rather than the Astra because I've seen/felt nothing to suggest that the brakes can be on even on ice. It's more the power being on and off though I find it hard to understand power can be on and off so quick that I can get high variations in wheelspin in such a short period of time.

IF the brakes are activated by TC, then you should be able to drive relatively normally with one front wheel in mud and the other on hard concrete because the brakes hold the wheel in the mud and let a bit of drive go to the other side. If neither happens and all you do is slip, then the brakes have nothing to do with it.

[ecstasy]

don't have an sri-t dude AH stock as a rock cause i ind out that the only way to go fast and have good trills is on a bike. When i get my zx10r at the end of the year no worries but i guess i will have to use only first gear to give u a chance bro. :D

Yeah but when you end up in my OPC grille, would the thrills really be worth it?

bikes are fast, but god damn they're dangerous.

and ur point is? you suck as a driver cause you crash too many times? you ar murdered cause you go crashing into bikes? I really don't see your point mate, cause if i do end in your grill, means that you ar at fault on the acco cause u crashed me from behind. Let me ask you this; what happens when you and your beloved car end up on somes guys truck grille? i bet the OPC grille will save you mate. :D or even better hit you from the side.

[rjastra]

I am sure the T/C system on the 2.2l Astra and those Astras with electronic throttle do in fact have the ability to apply either front brake to reduce wheelspin.

This from an old road test of the astra Sri....


On-power it will eventually start letting go at the front, but the delightful traction control pulls back the understeer with subtlety and assurance. Able to both close the throttle (it's electronic, remember) and also brake a wheel if it continues to spin, the traction control system is an outstanding safety device that doesn't detract at all from enthusiastic driving.

[Wattie]

another spanner in the works, if t/c put the brakes on too much, slowing the spinning wheel to slower speed that the other 3 wheels, wouldnt abs kick in??? hhhhmmmmmzzz food for thought... anyone know the dude who actually designed the cars?? haha

[SmellyTofu]

Actually no. The ABS and TC is in the same unit so the Bosch unit isn't that "dumb" to apply brakes to all 4 wheels. You have to be really really nuts to get the brakes to actually activate if cutting the power hasn't already done its job.

[Dave]

Actually no. The ABS and TC is in the same unit so the Bosch unit isn't that "dumb" to apply brakes to all 4 wheels. You have to be really really nuts to get the brakes to actually activate if cutting the power hasn't already done its job.



Are you calling me nuts m8 :shock:
I wouldnt say that im nuts, but more of an umm passive/agressive driver who doesnt aprechiate slow ppl, and ppl who cant seem to figger out how to drive in australia, and just dickwads in general. Im passive till ive had enough then the tires start spinning and you get this awesome sound. But yeah man its not that hard to get TC to nearly kill you.

[Vampire]

It does get annoying at times. Looking at installing a switch sometime soon

[stevedee3]

You have to be really really nuts to get the brakes to actually activate if cutting the power hasn't already done its job.

I reckon controlling wheelspin by cutting engine power would be too slow. Brakes can be applied in a fraction of a second, but I think it would take much longer to stop/slow a spinning wheel by cutting engine power. You wouldn't need to brake much, it's only the momentum of the spinning wheel that needs to be overcome.

Where's a Bosch engineer when you need one?! :?:


IF the brakes are activated by TC, then you should be able to drive relatively normally with one front wheel in mud and the other on hard concrete because the brakes hold the wheel in the mud and let a bit of drive go to the other side. If neither happens and all you do is slip, then the brakes have nothing to do with it.

Sounds reasonable, has anyone tried this?

[Nem]

I disactivated my TC today. Oh yeah and my ABS and speedo and odometer. :oops: Seems I didnt plug the ABS plug back in properly when I was screwing around with it last night. Oh well fixed now. :roll:

[Wattie]

Actually no. The ABS and TC is in the same unit so the Bosch unit isn't that "dumb" to apply brakes to all 4 wheels. You have to be really really nuts to get the brakes to actually activate if cutting the power hasn't already done its job.

if one wheel (the wheel with no traction) has the brakes applied via tc, and it locks (as i think dave was saying happened) wouldnt abs stop it from actually locking?? since the other 3 wheels with traction aare all spinning at the same speed?

anyways, read your owners manual, mine states that trac control CAN apply the brakes!!
why didn't someone read this sooner??

and btw
abs wont work if all wheels are locked... so in a sideways action, if you hit the brakes hard enough and all 4 wheels locked at the same time, abs woullnt know the car was still moving...

so if your car becomes seriously sideways, relying on the good ol' abs wont help...

[Namus]

i have a switch 8)

[Vectracious]

and btw
abs wont work if all wheels are locked... so in a sideways action, if you hit the brakes hard enough and all 4 wheels locked at the same time, abs woullnt know the car was still moving...

so if your car becomes seriously sideways, relying on the good ol' abs wont help...

Absolutely correct - at a driving course day at Calder part last year, I deliberately got the Vectra completely sideways and slammed on the brakes - ABS got confused and all the brakes locked and the car ended up in a 4 lock-up sideways skid. It stopped pretty quickly though!!! :P

[Bernard Siong]

i like abs

[Dave]

and btw
abs wont work if all wheels are locked... so in a sideways action, if you hit the brakes hard enough and all 4 wheels locked at the same time, abs woullnt know the car was still moving...

so if your car becomes seriously sideways, relying on the good ol' abs wont help...

Absolutely correct - at a driving course day at Calder part last year, I deliberately got the Vectra completely sideways and slammed on the brakes - ABS got confused and all the brakes locked and the car ended up in a 4 lock-up sideways skid. It stopped pretty quickly though!!! :P


lol absolutly correct, its not such a good idea to break when you moveing iin a sideways fashion, the best thing ive found in a fwd for those situations is to use your steering and a bit of power (wheel spin) to pull the car straight again especaly in the dirt or wet/oil. ( IF the car is slideing sideways at a certan speed and you turn your wheels either A into the slide or B out of the slide ( depending on which way it going, if the rear goe's out first its normaly get the front wheels lines up with where you want to be, but when the front wheels go you haft to turn into it) and apply some power geting the wheels moveing thus causeing the front wheels to move at a greater speed then that your are slide at it generaly will pull the car A around around the corner or B straight again. with minimal drift. Whereas when TC kicks in, in those situations looseing power and haveing a computer apply the breaks is like turning your car of, you cant do squat. shure you can steer and hangon but therse slim to none chance you will be able to correct the slide with no power and breaks applied. Mayb if you smack a guard rail. I hope you can a see my point about traction control nearly costing me my life.

[auzvectra]

can c ur piont, but i'm an optimist!
there's always sumpthing u can do 8) .
but i do agree with no power avaliable, that it makes it hard.
too hard to say what u could do with out bein in the situation, which then u dont normally know what to do either, u just do it.

[ecstasy]

hmmm Dave maybe you should analize why you were slidding on the first place (lack o control because of speed? resulting in the car fully sideways). I take that fully sideways as the tail wants to overtake the car. Well is thats the situation and you are doing some good speed well theres not much u can do unless u got heaps of space to play around (which normally is not the case, small space, other cars, trees, etc etc). Now once the tail overtakes you ur gone, and yeah like auzvectra says you gotta start playing and finding a way out, but like i said before no space no chance. Had the pleasure to drive several cars, flipped them, did some good 360's at silly speeds and it always comes to my point... yes space u've got to do some correction. As for cars with lack of power, well when it's gone it's just gone. But when u got a bit of power you sure can play with the steering and throttle. Let's face it even F1 cars had TC, and when they took it out well the cars started going much slower. Whys that? first less grip out of the corners, thus the computer controlled much better the throttle response and the transfer of power to the ground. Best way to put it as an example is driving in the snow, try with and without. fun factor without yeah it's awesome, but are we going faster? don't think so, car mover more sideways than foward thus u start going slower and slower. I did some hot laspt at the track with and without on a very reliable german car that was equiped with the oftion of tuning it off. And guess what? i could start on the power earlier exiting the corner which improved my times quite a lot, and as for the people that started racing go karts as me as a lil kid well you know that you win races entering and exiting the corners, corner speed is crucial.

[Dave]

Yeah man, If you gone with no room to play in full tail out situation resulting in a 360 or a 180 then ur gone, But if the tail flicks out and youve got some room to play therse every chance you can get it back in thats if your not a complete twat. I didnt make a habbit of geting the tail out on tarmac, Did do it a phuew times unecpedly, bit of gravel etc........but always manadged to get it straight again, Dirt on the other hand was a completly different story, found a place of smooth dirt but not bogy and went there for a bit of fun every now and again (even better when its mud), its not that difficult to controle a 4 wheel drift in a front wheel drive car if youve had some practice and know the cars limits. Used to reef on the hand brake comeing into corners for the fun of it or just go fast enoughf and keep the throttle up. But 6 times out of ten on tarmac the front gave out before the rear did resulting in a fw drift, there easier to correct but not as much fun, It is tru that you loose speed like that, but who cares when your haven fun right? normaly id make a habiit of holding the car right on its traction limit around corners so you soon learn where the limits are how hard you can push and when you do go to far what happens and how to correct it ( nothing better then the feeling of a car squirming beneath you, well therse chicks squirming among other things ;) ) unless your stupid and take a sharp 60k corner at 180, then your asking for it. Therse nothing that will save you there except a very good saftey cell if your lucky.

I am not claiming that i am an expert behind the wheel but i knew the cars limits and how to react, Thats the only thing that saved me a phuew times, even when i did collect a rd island around a dark corner at 120k fish tailed for 100 mts then put it into a slide to kill the speed and drove of ( got air, split the sump and gear box big mess every where) so ppl be carefull with this style of driveing unexpected things do happen and unless your concerntraiting 110% of the time it could end ugly. your life or someone elses.

[auzvectra]

have done 150k round a 40k corner, a few times actually.
but them days have gone. now it's only on the race track.
which is really hard to get onto, by the way.