20XE Into Gemini

[TUFF]

Hey Guys its been a while since i've posted here so here goes.

I'm building a Holden Gemini into an Improved Production Race car. Under this class i can run any motor, THAT, was used in a Holden, is 4 Cylinder and is under 2.0L. It doesnt leave a great deal open to me, i can stay the standard 1.6L Engine or go up to a G200 Isuzu motor which will need extensive work to be a quick motor.

Or i could go a 3sge Toyota motor ( Used in the Holden Apollo as a 3sfe )

Or a 20Xe Opel motor.

I have no experience with the Opel motor, the only motor i've worked on in Opel form was a c20sel. Needless to say i wont say anything else about that. Dont have anything nice to say and what have you.

Opinions on this conversion? Motor quirks etc and general opinion on using it?

This car will be racing Mostly at Wakefield, Eastern Creek and Hopefully Bathurst.

Cheers Josh

[chris_r]

Well, the earlier TX/TC/TD Gemini was also sold as a Opel Kadett C throughout most of Europe and the Vauxhall Chevette in the UK market. C20XE conversions have been done on these cars, but I'm guessing these days they are few and far between, as the cars are quite rare now.

C20XEs are an excellent option for tuning too, with a bucketload of options available. As for making it fit a rear wheel drive, I believe you use the gearbox from a 2WD Rodeo with the 2.4 C24SE engine, as these are a slightly larger version of the C20 engines. Most of the earlier Family II engines share the same bellhousing pattern.

Yeah, the C20SEL/C22SELs weren't a particularly fantastic engine, even if they were based on the X20XEV, which is the successor to the C20XE. The earlier C20XE however is a fairly solid engine, like most Opel engines benefits from regular servicing (particularly timing belt and water pumps are key), although these days most are probably in need of a rebuild. If that's the case, most parts can be sourced from the UK for cheaper than you would find here.

[poita]

For engine conversions into a Gemini maybe have a look around on Oz Gemini, maybe someone there has done it

[pd-xc-72464118]

Bit surprised to see chris_r you didn't suggest a Z20LET! Am I misinterpreting the criteria or something?

Call me curious but I'd like to see a modern engine in a Gem just to see what it looks like when an engine usually mounted transverse style is dropped into a older car longitudinal style, assuming that's the what people generally do. Would be like seeing life from some sort of parallel universe, LOL!

[chris_r]

Bit surprised to see chris_r you didn't suggest a Z20LET! Am I misinterpreting the criteria or something?

Call me curious but I'd like to see a modern engine in a Gem just to see what it looks like when an engine usually mounted transverse style is dropped into a older car longitudinal style, assuming that's the what people generally do. Would be like seeing life from some sort of parallel universe, LOL!
Didn't mention the Z20LET, as turbocharged engines in pretty much all forms of racing including IPRA have their capacity multiplied by a factor of 1.7, meaning that a 2.0 turbo engine is the equivalent of a 3.4 litre naturally aspirated engine. That would put the OP in a different category again as opposed to the 2000cc and under.

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[TUFF]

I'd love to turbo but that would mean going up against 500hp+ commodores etc. Would be an awesome power to weight ratio though!

[shifty]

Im no tuner I just do maintenance and keep my car clean so forgive me if this is a stupid question but Im just throwing this out there incase u havent thought about it but what about a z18xe or z18xer? I've heard there not the easiest car engine to modify but my astra AH seems to go ok when i put my foot down and it's an auto. I'd think it would be much heavier than a Gemini and with a decent manual gearbox as well as a bigger bore and different cam I think you'd be able to get decent results. Also I've heard u can u a larger throttle body and bigger injectors but not 100% on details. Just thought it might be another option worth considering. Good luck with the build and I'm sure whatever u put in it it will be well worth it in the end.

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[chris_r]

Im no tuner I just do maintenance and keep my car clean so forgive me if this is a stupid question but Im just throwing this out there incase u havent thought about it but what about a z18xe or z18xer? I've heard there not the easiest car engine to modify but my astra AH seems to go ok when i put my foot down and it's an auto. I'd think it would be much heavier than a Gemini and with a decent manual gearbox as well as a bigger bore and different cam I think you'd be able to get decent results. Also I've heard u can u a larger throttle body and bigger injectors but not 100% on details. Just thought it might be another option worth considering. Good luck with the build and I'm sure whatever u put in it it will be well worth it in the end.

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Problem is, when you go to mod the Z18, everything is pretty much custom made and that's when it gets costly.

By going with a C20XE, the OP has a ton of options available to him, everything from quad throttle body setups to cams and all other kinds of bits available off the shelf.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the Z18XE and XER are cracking little engines, just when it comes to racing, the C20XE is a hard act to beat, as it has been a proven engine in racing circles. Hell, even Spiess have tuned and built the C20XE into a solid engine for use in Formula 3 cars. There's a mob here in Adelaide that are the Australian agent for Spiess too, but I can imagine you may need to sell some organs for one of their engines.

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[shifty]

Problem is, when you go to mod the Z18, everything is pretty much custom made and that's when it gets costly.

By going with a C20XE, the OP has a ton of options available to him, everything from quad throttle body setups to cams and all other kinds of bits available off the shelf.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the Z18XE and XER are cracking little engines, just when it comes to racing, the C20XE is a hard act to beat, as it has been a proven engine in racing circles. Hell, even Spiess have tuned and built the C20XE into a solid engine for use in Formula 3 cars. There's a mob here in Adelaide that are the Australian agent for Spiess too, but I can imagine you may need to sell some organs for one of their engines.

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Yea I've heard there's not a lot of mods out there for them and I can only imagine the cost of getting everything custom made! It's a pity there aren't many upgrade mods for them

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[chris_r]

Yea I've heard there's not a lot of mods out there for them and I can only imagine the cost of getting everything custom made! It's a pity there aren't many upgrade mods for them

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Yeah, I would say the limiting factor with the Z18 is the ECU. There's not many people that can tune them and those that can hold their secrets close to their hearts for obvious reasons. Not to mention, the Siemens Simtec ECUs are just plain shite at the best of times in terms of reliability. Go aftermarket ECU and the world is your oyster so to say, but more often than not, you're almost talking thousands to do that on it's own. Having said that, there seems to be a DCOE throttle body style intake manifold available from the UK for the X18XE1/Z18XE engine and I have a VEMS aftermarket ECU here looking for a home, along with a Z18 going into a Combo van. Looks rather tempting.

[pd-xc-72464118]

Didn't mention the Z20LET, as turbocharged engines in pretty much all forms of racing including IPRA have their capacity multiplied by a factor of 1.7, meaning that a 2.0 turbo engine is the equivalent of a 3.4 litre naturally aspirated engine. That would put the OP in a different category again as opposed to the 2000cc and under.


Well that explains that :)

Thanks!

[Mycal]

I would try and get a 1994 c20xe with DIS from a Calibra. Not sure how much room you'd have in the Gemini for a distributor near the firewall so better to start with an engine that doesn't need one.

A 2.2 or 2.4 (c22ne/c24se/y24se) rodeo/Colorado gearbox should bolt to the c20xe, you may need to use some other flywheels depending on how the input shaft lines up with the clutch disc. The 2.2/2.4 sumps 'may' work in the Gemini they might not so expect the worst and budget for custom or even dry sump set-up. You should find that all the engine mounts are the same.

If you got a Calibra wreck I wouldn't be surprised if you could use the engine management also. But I guess in a build like this you might as well go custom their too then you just gotta decide if it is injected or carbied.

Hth

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[MACK06]

Hey TUFF,

came across this thread and was intrigued. Past couple of years I've beeing running and IP Gemini with a G161 Turbo and I'm considering going to the Dark Side (U2L) with something different to the same old same old 3SFE.. welcome the C20XE.
Have you made any progress into a new engine yet?

Budget is always an issue, so I need to make side I'm 100% before I start buying bits, anything I should be aware of?

Cheers

[TUFF]

Even though this is an old thread i would like to keep it updated,

I've been rallying a Peugeot 206 GTI in the NSW State Khanacross series, so the Gemini has been slowly getting stripped of all its bits but has sat under cover for the last few months waiting for some love. Khanacross it great fun but having to drive some 3hrs to a track to get a total of 10 minutes racing for a day to drive 3hrs home is a complete waste of time and money and i can think of better things to be doing with the hard earned!

6445
The 206 GTI is fast, 140hp fwd in a tiny shell weighing less than 900kg now. So why dont i race it in IPRA? My hearts not in the peugeot. Sure, its the first CAR i have thrown around a track not caring if i bust it and i've had some awesome fun in it and alot of oh shit moments, Busting it the first time i took it out.. but we wont talk about that one!

I looked hard for a Gemini locally for afew years with the sole intention of racing it. I found this one and daily drove it for a while, and also Khanacrossed it in the back end of 2015 having a heap of fun. Then came the deadline with rego coming up and i decided to get into it. I have been given a Isuzu G200 Bottom end, virgin block and will be building that motor up TO START WITH to get the car out onto the track and then start getting parts etc for the C20XE, at this stage its actually cheaper to buy a complete calibra with the red top than it is to buy a wrecker motor to rebuild.

I have to be honest, Opel Motors shit me, there i said it. I've had a rough time with a c20sel and my therapist says i'm making good progress! But this car will hopefully make me think the other way, You know.. the whole be a Lover not a Fighter...

So any tips, help, parts etc the Forum want to throw at me is appreciated. It will be a big learning curve thats for sure.. but the grin on my face at the end of it all will be worth it!

BRING IT ON!

[sskustomz]

I took a photo of this one at rally australia last year, opel in a gemini.



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[sskustomz]

I took a photo of this one at rally australia last year, opel in a gemini.



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170215/9d19c784785f4a76871ab5a137febe64.jpg



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[MACK06]

Don't underestimate the little PUG's, have a mate here in SA campaigning a couple in regularity and IP.
The Turbo 1600 is nice, but an U2L screaming to 10000rpm with a Type 9 dog box would be nicer (and more expensive). I see some links to kadetts in Europe putting 320+ hp, the potentially fastest IP car here in SA has 260 ish from a 3S-FE.
That pic looks nice and clean. I do support crew for targa and classic adelaide here, but no gemini's. Any more info on that?

[chris_r]

The way it's going at the moment, it's looking like Peugeot and Opel/Vauxhall will be one and the same company before long.

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[sskustomz]

It was running in a classic event that finished at the opening ceremony for wrc in coffs harbour. We had them in the line up for the run over the podium. Was a little busy so no details sorry.


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[TUFF]

I actually know of that Gemini and have been talking to the owners of it, it hauls arse.

The Pugs are great little cars, i do want to take it to some track days before i sell it or do some hillclimb events in it as its a quick little nugget.