What does this mean?

[extralarge]

guys know what

heel-toe gearchange technique is?

and

lift off oversteer?

reading in some magazines and i dont get it :evil:

thanks

[Anonymous]

heel-toeing is when your down shifting matey, its so you dont get a nice big clunk when down shifting, for eg, say your doing about 100km/h in 4th and you wanna go to third to take a corner or whatever, you can just shove it in 3rd, you gotta tap the accelorator to get it up to the revs yo do this by "tapping" the pedal with your right foot whilst having the left foot on the clutch :D i think thats right yes?


lift off oversteer is like torque steer yer?? when you tak off the car sorta is thrown off its line?? :D

[Mitch]

|OPEL|: You must have pretty wierd shaped feet if you can put your foot on the accelerator and have the clutch in at the same time. lol :lol:

[Anonymous]

haha oh yea my bad... haha forgot the brake is in the middle :oops: will change that :P

[extralarge]

sorry im confused :|

the heel part is the foot on the clutch and toe is tapping the accelerator? :roll:

[Anonymous]

yea thats right, basically its just an expression you dont actually "HEEL-TOE" but its getting the revs to a cirtain point before you release the clutch so the car doesnt jolt got it??

[DrDevil]

heel-toe is about matching your revs when you down shift. If you are doing 80km/h in 4th @ 4000rpm and need to change down to 3rd, you start braking with your toe and then match the revs with your heel so that when you disengage the clutch the car is already at the revs for that speed.

[imay]

|OPEL| is correct, in that this driving skill is used to keep the engine revs up while down shifting into corners. The art of "heel-toe" driving is being able to use the heel and toe of the right foot to simultaneously operate the accelerator and brake OR the left foot to operate the clutch and brake at the same time.
For a full instructional video watch the V8 Supercars from Eastern Creek on 10 this Sat. and Sun. and watch the in-car footage that shows the drivers' feet. It is truely an amazing thing to watch. Drivers virtually dancing on the pedals at 200+ kmh.

A word of warning though: If you are planning on trying this, make sure you have it down pat before trying it out on the streets . . . . please! Could be scarey if you get your feet/pedals mixed up at even legal road speeds.

[Anonymous]

true that, my bro almost lost it on eastern creek learning to heel-toe :P

[MCDC18]

[Opel] - Lot of sites on the web to teach you to heel-toe. Bang it in Google and see what you get. Advanced driving courses also teach you how to do it. It takes a while to perfect but once you nail it correctly, it is a hugely satisfying skill to know. And it sounds cool as you rev your engine before a corner...You ofter hear bikes do it too.

Oversteer is getting the rear of the car out of shape, for example, in a rear wheel drive car when you plant the foot around a corner, will see the rear drift out. Oversteer is 'generally' harder to achieve in front wheel drive cars like the Astra. But it can be done by what they call 'lift off oversteer'. You essentially go into a corner carrying reasonable speed and then back off the throttle abruptly mid corner. What this does is the weight of the car is transferred to the front of the car, making the rear end lighter and you can get the rear to slide out!

I have yet to get my Astra to really do it due to its high grip level, but my old Corolla was quite easy to provoke. It is a slightly unnerving feeling in a front wheel drive, but it is easier to achieve in the wet, or with the tap of the handbrake. I believe it is harder to correct a FWD car when the rear is out of control though so be warned....

[Anonymous]

so bascially its drifting MCD???

[MCDC18]

Not exactly - drifting is what rear wheel drive and all wheel drive cars do. It is a 'controlled' slide where your rear, and sometimes all four wheels are sliding but done in a manner that you can usually correct it.

Drifting is not really possible on front wheel drive cars as you can't really keep it going for an extended period - you basically provoke the 'slide' by using the car's momentum rather than using the gas. Lift off oversteer is also used I believe by rally car drivers to pivot their car into a corner.

Lift off oversteer should be attempted with great caution. Worst case scenario - if you are carrying too much speed into the corner and back off suddenly you could get your car into a 180! And if there is traffic/parked car/pole, result could be nasty....

[Anonymous]

In true drifiting, the rear tyres break traction and spin.... as opposed to sliding and remaining locked..... Impossible on a fwd... anything else is just a handbrake slide, or oversteer....

[BoostedAstra]

Lift oversteer as said early can be quite unnerving esp when the rear end does actually lift off the ground.

Correct me if I'm wrong guys but isn't drifting literally sustained controlled loss of traction?

So whilst the popular thought is only RWD or AWD can do this, technically FWD can still do it, may just not look fully sik to ur friends.

Having said that the speed you would need to reef up the hand brake and tank slap down the road would be colon clenching :evil:

Julian

[EGG80X]

Heel toe is referring to a smooth down shifting, in the old days, most cars don't have syncro-mesh in the transmission hence u have to match the engine speed or rev when u down shift.... but it is still a good practise today......... especially on a race track

Liftoff oversteer occurs when the weight transfer to the front of the car therefore lesser grip on the rear so the car breaks rear traction. This occurs mostly in high speed corners which are either off cambered or bit bumpy..... it can be achieved in any car even in front wheel drives (even in an echo). Anyone raced on Eastern Creek? On turn one if you r going fast enough and back off the throttle or stupid enough to brake during that corner, liftoff over steer can occur. Also if your car is has a stiff rear suspension setup, liftoff oversteer can happen.

Another similar method to liftoff oversteer is to brake during mid corner, same rules applied: transferring weight to the front of the car so rear end has less grip

Liftoff oversteer is very dangerous, don't try this on the street, i take no responsiblity

[extralarge]

understood, thanks. :D

not too warm about the lift off oversteer - apparently it works a treat with the clio sport though.

[EGG80X]

understood, thanks. :D

not too warm about the lift off oversteer - apparently it works a treat with the clio sport though.

i think the writer is prob refer to neutral steer (4 wheel drift)

[Anonymous]

No, fwd drifting is fully sick.... especially when the only time I have seen it are out at night cruising, when some yobbo pulls up his handbrake in his corolla in the middle of traffic!!!!!!

FWD drifting is pretty spaz. It's a nice way to get bold spots on your rear tyres, and seriosuly stuff up your rear suspension. Your essentially "DRAGGING" your tyres, and every bit of suspension componentry along with it.

RWD drifting, the wheels are essentially hovering around the corner, as they have lost traction, and are not dragging, but rather....... drifting??? :roll:

[Stuey]

I double clutch and heal toe on down shift all the time. Makes for a very slick shift. But then it is sort of second nature to me as well as I drive large trucks on occasion and its more or less a must in these. Especially if using a road ranger gearbox. Quite a knack to be fluent at it. Takes time. But if you want to learn....as stated..please do it on a track or somewhere very quite. It is easy to stuff it up if you don't know what you are doing. It isn't really necessary unless you are driving your car hard and frequently beating the synchrose.

As for lift off oversteer, i agree with all the comment made with reference to weight transfer to the front of the car....basically its the @rse end of the car overtaking the front so to speak due to weight shift.

[extralarge]

how does double clutch help? :shock:

[Anonymous]

what the hell is double clutching anyway i think vin diesel says it in fast and furious "granny shifting not double clutching like you should".... can someone elaborate??

[OzzySRi]

double clutching is the forgotten part of heal-toeing (rev matching).

rev-matching is when u blip the throttle prior to releasing the clutch to engage the lower gear. pretty much ur setting up the rpm in anticipation of engine speed required for the lower gear... so its like,
CLUTCH
DOWN SHIFT / BLIP THROTTLE (SIMULTANIOUSLY)
RELEASE CLUTCH
... ALL WHILE BRAKING IF NEEDED

double clutching is when u synchronise the gears manually. much like rev-matching but with extra steps. essential for driving heavy vehicles or cars with poor/old gearboxes. its like,
CLUTCH
SHIFT TO NEUTRAL
RELEASE CLUTCH / BLIP THROTTLE (synchronisation occurs here)
CLUTCH
DOWN SHIFT
RELEASE CLUTCH
... ALL WHILE BRAKING IF NEEDED

Notice the double use of the clutch... hence the name

Double clutching is often used on upshifts aswell as downshifts where rev-matching is pretty much for downshifts.

i believe rev matching came about for sporting intentions. it results in smoother weight transitions on the race track (and sounds cool when performed correctly). Double clutching came about as a method of over coming crunchy gearboxes.

it is second nature for me to double clutch now as i was forced to learn when i was a teen. My toy at the time was a modded '71 MGB GT.... nuff said.

Oh yeah, heal-toe is just how u operate two pedals with one foot. heal on one, toe on the other.

[blueraven]

in a drag race i cant see how double clutching can be beneficial, i flat shift pretty much and if i took the time to double clutch i would prolly lose half a second each time. i know the theory behind it and totally agree it better for your engine... but i always wondered why the hell they said that in F&F...because i just cant see how you could double clutch faster than a flat shift :screwy: :bang:


and i was thinking about lift off under steer... i agree with whats been said.. but have you ever been *driving rapidly* and sliding the front...i dont know about astras but when i am mid corner and sliding i accelerate through the corner (sometime i practically floor it to get the wheels spinning and it increases grip ...to a point :P.), if i lift off the throttle i slide more! its all about friction i geuss....

[NUTTTR]

Not drag racing..... they use auto's !
Flat shifting is a good way to destroy the clutch and gearbox so don't do it! (it is keeping the accellerator flat to the floor while clutch is in and you are changing gears before you ask!)
However in V8 supercars, etc they have straight cut gears in the boxes, so they HAVE to double clutch when going down gears, etc, otherwise they clunk :)
Aaron

[rjastra]

not too warm about the lift off oversteer

This is more apparent in cars with passive rear steer like the pug 306/206 and the renault clio. They way they set up the rear suspension bushes means that changes to toe-in can occur quoite easily. Thats why hose cars feel like they have LESS understaeer than most FWD in corners.

The AStra on the other hand has very little passive rear steer. That's why the Astra feels quite planted in the rear end at quite high corner speeds. On the other hand AStras aren't quite as adjustable in corners using the throttle/brake.

[SmellyTofu]

RJ, I've been lead to believe there was a degree of rear steer but not like the levels of a Pug. You've got to be bloody committed to get into lift off oversteer though.

Double shuffle is (addition to what's been said) to spin the input shaft.

F&F is (I think) full of BS. It's a movie with an excuse to put riced cars and glorify them as "da 5hite"

[dan_kind]

.....while i am sure lots of people enjoy 'rev matching' i fail to see the point of it really if you dont understand double declutching, and/or how a synchro works within the gearbox...

....the most useful part of the whole exercise is maintaining balance when your well and truly headed towards oversteer, its common to really make a mess of things if your slamming the vehicles mass...

.....FLAT CHANGES? Who the hell does that to a production car? and i dont understand how the comment about double clutching being faster in a drag race can occur, there is absolutely no requirement to D/C on upshifts...andyeah, they would make it slower... flat changes in anything with serious power will definately cause clutch slip (production vehicles) so i wonder whether its worth doing that over a quick general shift?

personally i D/C between most gears, i find the vehicle more controllable, comfortable and i feel like i am doing less damage.

its also _VERY_ funny watching people learning to double clutch/heeltoe

[KevinFok]

correct me if im wrong but i havent seen much people actually double clutching and heel toeing in V8 supercars.....but i see it a lot in JGTC and DTM clips
but everytime i watch V8 Supercars i never see the drivers actually double clutching

[OzzySRi]

^^^ uve never seen the footwork of a V8 supercar driver!!??

those guys are hectic with all that heel toeing n left foot braking. on certain curcuits its like theyre actually dancing on the pedals.

[MCDC18]

Just on the topic of rev matching - I once took an Alfa 147 Selespeed for a test with a friend and we gave it a good caning. The selespeed is one of few semi-automatic gearboxes that rev matches the downshifts for you via the car's electronics. It sounds awesome as you hear the engine rev itself up during rapid downshifts and doing it without jerking the car.

While it takes the fun and skill out of doing it yourself, I thought it was a fantastic feature that will hopefully feature in other cars to come...