Synthetic Oil - Myths

[Stuey]

I took this article off another Opel Message Board as I felt it may prove to be of interest to some of you that actually care about what oil gets put in your engine. It may also enlighten some of you that have fallen pray to marketing schemes.

Credit to "Oilman" (Simon) from Migweb for this article.


As there seem to be many oil discussions here but no real technical explanations of what constitutes a good oil, I thought that those interested would benefit from reading this. It's very technical because it's written by an R&D Chemist with 40 years experience and not a sales pitch extolling the virtues of a brand of oil. It's a factual and interesting read!

Building a good oil.

It is impossible to make a good 5w-40 or even 10w-40, using only mineral oil. The base oil is so thin, it just evaporates away at the high temperatures found in a powerful engine that is being used seriously. Although there are chemical compounds in there to prevent oil breakdown by oxygen in the atmosphere (oxidation) they cannot adequately protect vulnerable mineral oil at the 130 degC plus sump temperatures found in a hard working turbocharged or re-mapped engine.

The answer to this is synthetics. They are built up from simple chemical units, brick by brick so as to speak; to make an architect designed oil with properties to suit the demands of a modern engine.

The synthetic myth

The word “synthetic” once meant the brick by brick chemical building of a designer oil but the waters were muddied by a court case that took place in the USA some years ago. The outcome was that the right to call heavily modified mineral oil “synthetic” was won. This was the marketing executives dream; the chance to use the word “synthetic” on a can of oil without spending much extra on the contents!

Most lower-cost “synthetic” or “semi-synthetic” oils use these “hydrocracked” mineral oils. They do have some advantages, particularly in commercial diesel lubricants but their value in performance engines is marginal.

TRUE synthetics are expensive and in basic terms there are three broad catagories, each containing many types and viscocity grades:-

PIB’s (Polyisobutanes)

These are occasionally used as thickeners in motor oils and gear oils, but their main application is to suppress smoke in two-strokes.

The TWO important ones are:

ESTERS

All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic “esters” and have been for more than 50 years but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils around 20 years ago.
Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants work well from
-50 degC to 200 degC, and they have an added benefit. Due to their structure, “ester” molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non pressure-fed film has to hold the surfaces apart.
Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops, or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.

Synthetic Hydrocarbons or PAO’s (Poly Alpha Olefins)

These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with “esters” they work very well at low temperatures and equally well at high temperatures, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless “boundary” lubricants, with less load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.

It is a fact that “PAO’s” work best in combination with “esters”. The “esters” assist load carrying, reduce friction and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the “PAO’s” act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and anti-oxidant agents, and foam suppressants.
Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the “esters” in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.

So, in conclusion, Ester gives the best protection and Ester/PAO combinations have great benefits because they work well together. They are more expensive but worth it if you wish to do the best for your engine.



Part I found of particular interest was "The outcome was that the right to call heavily modified mineral oil “synthetic” was won"

I asked my mechanic (who knows what he is on about as he is involved in the motor racing industry) and he said that oils such as Mobil 1, Shell Helix etc etc all all cr@p and are selling under false pretenses. He made reference to the above statement that once an oil is moddified by a predetermined %, then the manufacturer has the right to sell it as "fully synthetic". He said for good oils you shouldnt be paying anything less than around $100 for 5 litres. He recommends the use of Redline oil which is 100% synthetic, not part synthetic and sold as fully synthetic.

He also told me that he was involved in some lab testing where they put redline oil in a taxi and checked the lubricating properties of the oil some 50,000 kms later. As it turned out the used Redline oil still had better lubricating properties after 50,000 kms than brand new Mobil 1 out of the bottle.

Needless to say, I'm now using Redline Oil as well, both in the motor and gearbox. Engine seems to be quieter and the gear changes slicker. You only need to change Redline oil at 30,000 km intervals as well so the cost is offset against the oil changes for other oils at say 10-15,000 kms.

Stuey

[BoostedAstra]

$100 is a lot for people who change their oil every 5k like i do.......

[SmellyTofu]

Ahh.. the smarter people don't pay $100 for 5 litres of Mobil 1 (I presume you are talking about the 0W variant). It's who you know that makes all the price difference.

Also the advantage of taxi is that the expansion/contraction cycles are minimised because most of them are running 24hrs a day (almost) and any car run for that amount of time constantly will have a much longer service life.

With oils, it's better to use a cheaper oil and change more often than a good oil and not change it often. Filters can only filter so much. No amount of goodies in the oil would stand it if the filter doesn't do its job. If a grain of dirt gets in, there's more chance of it being removed with more frequent oil changes than leaving it in there and letting the goodies do its job.

[Stuey]

$100 is a lot for people who change their oil every 5k like i do.......

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote correctly in that with a higher quality oil, your oil changes are less frequent...every 30,000 kms. And its not Mobil 1 that cost $100, its redline oil. Mobil 1 only costs approx $50-$60.


Also the advantage of taxi is that the expansion/contraction cycles are minimised because most of them are running 24hrs a day (almost) and any car run for that amount of time constantly will have a much longer service life.


With regard to this comment, regardless of being a taxi (as we are not measuring engine wear ie cold start up etc), the general analysis was that USED Redline oil (100% synthetic) after 50,000 kms of use was STILL in better condition and gave better lubricating properties than BRAND NEW Mobil 1 (marketed as fully synthetic) out of the bottle UNUSED. Redline recommends a service interval (oil change) of 30,000kms for a standard road use daily driver. However thay recommend an oil FILTER change every 5,000 kms as with any oil because of the simple fact as stated, you will get contaminants.


With oils, it's better to use a cheaper oil and change more often than a good oil and not change it often.

I may be looking at this the wrong way, but even with frequent oil changes...just how well are you looking after the engine when the cheaper oil isnt really protecting to a high level from the minute you poor it in the engine?

I understand your point completely, engine oil contaminants will damage an engine. However, if running poor quality oil longterm over the length of the engine life, surely this will amount to more damage overall?

Food for thought.

PS: This is not an arguement, if anybody chose to see it as such, I'm simply proposing other ideas to create positive debate and maybe offer and angle of thought others may not have considered. Feel free to discuss this topic further.

Other ideas to consider are oils like Castrol Magnatec. This oil is very difficult to drain out of the engine, so at the time of an oil change, a lot of old grade oil remains in the engine.

[BoostedAstra]

Smelly ur on the money....

ok we need to clarify....

I said that $100 for oil is expensive if you change ur oil as frequently as i do. Every 5k my engine gets 5 litres of helix and a new filter(which i pay $20 for). If i did that with redline oil, that'd be expensive, plain and simple.

Personally i think ur mad if u leave oil in there for 30k-50k, even if ya are changing the filter every 5k. Dirty oil is dirty oil regardless of a new filter

Julian

[Stuey]

I've just taken this off the redline oil page:

Mineral oil is mined or extracted from the earth’s natural resources and contains
many impurities. Processing and refining of this oil may reduce some levels of the
impurities. Synthetic oil is manufactured or man made. There are two types –
Type 1 – True Synthetics –
Satisfy both of the following:
1) It is completely man-made AND
2) It does not contain mineral oil and therefore contains NO impurities
Red Line is a 100% man made synthetic which contains no impurities and
can assist in the removing of impurities from an already contaminated
system. 100% Synthetic provides ultimate benefits and performance over
other synthetic and mineral oils.
Type 2 – So Called Common Market Synthetics –
Most other market brands are in this category and are made from a blend of
processed mineral oil and some synthetic base OR made from a mineral oil
put through an unnatural process such as hydro-cracking (this is legally
allowed to be called synthetic also). These oils may therefore still contain
impurities and characteristics of mineral oil.
This can include labels such as “Fully Synthetic”, “Semi Synthetic” and
“Synthetically Fortified”:
1) “Fully Synthetic” & “100% Synthetic”– terms used very broadly. A
mineral oil put through an unnatural process (such as ‘hydro-cracking’) to
remove / refine molecules can legally be labelled synthetic even though
this oil will still contain impurities and some of the characteristics of
mineral oil.
2) “Synthetically Fortified” – usually refers to a plain mineral oil to which a
synthetic basestock has been added.. It stands to logic that a poor quality
synthetic added to a poor quality mineral oil could possibly perform worse
Red Line Oils Information Kit: PART ONE
Page 11 of 14
InfoKit Part One (all kits)001 Revised 18/8/03 Red Line Oils Pty Ltd – Australian Distributors of Super Synthetic Oils and Additives Ph: 1300 88 1213
than a plain good quality mineral oil. Also, there is no indication of the %
synthetic used. Possibly, a mineral oil with only 2% synthetic basestock
added can still be called “synthetically fortified”.
3) “Semi Synthetic” – a variation of meaning - could include either of the
above two definitions.

BENEFITS
• Because Red Line synthetic oils don’t break down like other mineral and
synthetic oils, drain times are extended considerably. For a standard petrol
motor vehicle, a recommended oil change of 5,000kms can increase to
30,000kms.
• Using Red Line Synthetics reduces wear by a factor off up to four (4) times
over other brand mineral and ‘synthetic’ oils, hence the ‘proven to outperform’
label.

[Stuey]

And this, sorry for the long posts...but for those that are interested...they may prove to be interesting reading... And NO...i'm not sponsored by Redline :wink:

FAQ’s
Why does Red Line cost so much?
Ans: With extended drain times, the cost is about the same as cheap oil, but when it comes to looking after your equipment, the benefits are much BIGGER. Don’t be
fooled. You only get what you pay for. Cheaper synthetics are made from cheaper
ingredients which give lesser results! In the battle for profits, other companies cut
corners in their synthetic product by making their product almost entirely poly-alphaole- fin based. This type of synthetic base stock is cheaper and cannot withstand the temperature like that of Poly-ol-ester base stock, nor equal Poly-ol-ester base stock quality.

What’s so good about Red Line Oils?
Ans: While polyolester gives Red Line the highest temperature and thermal stability
to help prevent the wear and tear common from other oils, Red Line also uses
advanced “contaminant lock-up” technology. Using this technology you get: quieter
& cleaner operation, less wear, lower maintenance bills and improved economy.

Are there different grades of synthetic?
Yes, the same way there are all sorts of coffee grades, there are all types of synthetic grades. Red Line is recognised as using the number #1 best synthetic grade in the world (polyolester). Lesser quality synthetics give lesser results and performance.

Is Red Line compatible with other oils?
Ans: Yes, but like any product, if you dilute it, you lessen the benefits. Red Line is
compatible with all mineral oil seals. Red Line oil does not require any extra
additives.

Is Red Line as good as Mobil 1?
Ans: Better! Mobil 1, Amsoil and most other synthetics oils are made from diester or poly-alpha-olefin (PAO esters). They may be better than mineral oil but Red Line’s polyolester is the best stock known to man in oil technology, hence the results are with it.

Is my warranty affected by using Red Line?
Ans: Not at all. Red Line meets & exceeds all manufacturers’ requirements, but
within warranty you should follow manufacturer oil change intervals.

[Stuey]

I guess the reason I'm posting these is to put the info on the table. Don't get me wrong guys, I want to hear your comments and at no time am I going to say you are wrong. You do what you want...your car. Thats life! But I walked the path of Mobil 1 for many years thinking I'm doing the right thing. Paying my $50-60 dollars every 5,000 kms, servicing religiously. And I wouldn't have anybody tell me Mobil 1 was cr@p. They put it in V8 super cars...and Brocky uses it right? Hmmm...must be good. Good old advertising at work. Had I been given this info earlier....things would have been different. By putting this info out there that some of you may not know..I'm giving you a choice. What you do with it is up to you.

:mrgreen:

[KevinFok]

well i guess it all depends on the liking of the people seriously......
some people may think quality over qauntity whereas some people think vice versa

Red Line is normally used in all the high perforamce cars eg. porchse cause the wear on their engine would be much greater than just a normal car on the road

but when you are just driving a normal car then there is no real point in getting such high synthetic oil unless you red line ur car everywhere you travel

[wraith II]

Redline oil is not the only good true syth oil out there, there are many others - I've used a particular brand which costs even more than that and has been tested to be probably the best available - (AMS OIL).

However I don't use it anymore, I agree with some of the postings above, you should change oil and oil filter every 5k if you want your engine to last.

No need to use $100 plus oils and keep em in for 30k plus km's this is what causes damage, ware and tear.

I used to race a 9 sec XU1 built by COME racing - these mechanics also know what their talking about and according to them, regardless of oil quality, once it discolours it has been contaminated and should be changed.

Ideally speaking it would be very impractable to do this, but any good grease monkey will admit that 5k oil/oil filter intervals, with a good quality, (not mega expensive) oil is good pratice for engine health and longevity.

[Stuey]

I agree that redline is not the only good "fully synthetic" oil on the market. I am simply using it as an example. What I am addressing is for those that do not know....don't be fooled into thinking you are buying fully synthetic oil when you buy Mobil1, Helix etc just because it says it on the bottle. Because in fact you are not.

And just to readdress: you still change your filter every 5,000kms with a "fully synthetic" oil. The oil lasts 30,000kms....and in its pure form ie brand new in the bottle, it contains no impurities. In the event of impurities, this is addressed with the 5,000km oil filter changes. On the other hand, with mineral oils and cheap synthetics, you are introducing imputies into the engine as soon as you poor the new oil in. This is because the oil refining process cannot remove all impurities with mineral based oils. With 100% fully synthetic oils, they do not break down at the same rate as mineral based oils. So the discolouration to which has been refered does not occur as soon as other oils...hence the extended drain time.

[Stuey]

And just to address cost....ok...if you used redline oil every service with a filter change you are talking big $$$. But that is not is what is recommended. So to put it in perspective:

Servicing over 30,000kms (fully synthetic) = oil $100 & 6 x oil filter @ $20 = $220

Servicing over 30,000kms (mineral base/cheap synthetic) = 6 x oil @ approx $50 & 6 x oil filter @ $20 = $420

Either way...I agree with you all. No dispute from me. When using a normal oil, the best protection for your car is regular oil and filter changes. While most handbooks will recommend a change at every 10,000kms, I also agree with you that 5,000kms is better. What I am suggesting is that with a high grade oil, you do not need to chang the oil as frequently as is doens not deteriorate at the same rate. However, filter changes are required should foreign contaminants be introduced to the oil.

Keep in mind that with cheaper non fully synthetic brands, you are adding the contaminants straight from the bottle, combined with the accelerated break down of the oils necessitates the frequent changes.

Does anyone undertand where I am comming from? :?:

Or am I on a limb by myself? Feel free to tell me to shut up and I'll go back and sit in the corner... :oops:

[rjastra]

The other point i think people are missing is that most modern cars will last 100,000km + with minimal servicing. And lets be honest. How many of you guys are going to buy a new Astra and then keep it for 100,000km+ when the supposed benefits of frequent oil changes may be seen.

So frequent oil changes and filter changes are only benefiting the person who buys the car years down the track. And quite frankly I can't be bothered paying all that extra money for THEIR benefit.

Oil changes (of synth oil) every 5000km are a complete WASTE of time and money on a normally aspirated Astra. The use of expensive oils like Redline, AMSOIL and the likes is an obsolute waste UNLESS you extend the oil change interval. And you can't extend it past the manufacturer's interval cause you may void your warranty.

[astra_city]

Interesting read. I've heard good things about Redline oil also. But don't all Porsche's use Mobil 1 out of the factory??

[silvestra]

Yes they do. Same as Ferraris use the Shell equivalent, including the Enzo.

[dan_kind]

We are talking about production motors, rev limited, under low stress in production vehicles, for something normally aspirated, what possible advantage is there in using oils that expensive? The cost benefit doesnt add up for me, especially as i change the vehicle every 100,000ks.

I dont like the idea of changing the oil every 15,000kms, so i change it at 7,500..with mobil 1. Why mobil 1? Because its good enough. Its better than the standard oils used, its not as good as Motul or redline, but it keeps the motor clean, and so far i havent had an engine failure...note: i havent had an engine that has done more than 150,000kms either.

Turbo charged motor? Sure, change the oil as frequently as you want, it will stop the bearings from self destructing, but your going to have to rebuild it (turbo/motor) eventually anyhow, no motor (turbo!) lasts forever. I tend to favour high revs, i like the sound of it, so i run a decent quality oil because i feel that they are more stable at the higher temperatures and loads...

I woudlnt trust marketing crap from Redline, and a lot of it is marketing, its about getting people to switch from brand to brand, i work with PR companies, i know the hype that surrounds automotive products....

Taxi's are a special breed, those motors are for the most part rather clean, with no change in oil temperature, little sludge can build up or settle...

I would not leave any fluid, for 30,000 km unless it was pure high engine speed (free way driving) for a VERY long way :) Filters arent going to remove everything from the lubricant...

[rjastra]

dan_kind.... totally agree. I think some people have a oil change regime based on what people did 15+yrs ago. Bit out of date when applied to today's cars and oils.

[dan_kind]

*shrugs*

I just dont think changing oils like a person suffering OCD washes their hands is neccesarry. In my industry, you talk a lot about 'cost benefit'., i guess i dont see a huge benefit

[entice]

Simple question to answer the oil debate...

Who will keep their car long enough that it will most likely require an engine rebuild?

If you answered in the affirmative, please continue, otherwise your participation in this survey is greatly appreciated...now go and buy some "average" quality oil by a Large manufacturer and change it regularly.

So, you think you'll keep the car till it needs a rebuild? Do you actually think that spending upwards of $100 per oilchange...+ Filter and washer costs, will make that uch of a difference?

Hrmm...

I used to chase every single Kw, and buy the best I could afford (Amsoil I used to use - turbocharged vehicle with 40% boost over standard), until I noticed that i was changing the car over every 3 or so years. who benefitted? the oil companies and resellers. Now, I just buy some decent "synthetic" oil in bulk, and provide it to the dealer for each service.

At least I know it's better than the stuff that the dealer uses (Manufacturer specified) and it ends up costing me less.

[dan_kind]

*nods* true true

[silvestra]

Here, here.

[MiksOpel]

As Dan_kind said, its marketing,
There will always be Bi-lo- Target-and Myer
Cheap - moderate- Expensive.

Difference? Label and packaging.
Who does the money go to? Coles

Image is everything