Cruze CDX Diesel on the way

[rjastra]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/DF629CD36717DB2DCA25764900229AFC

[hazrd]

interesting, i wonder how tuneable it will be...

[MatsHolden]

Finally. Was rediculous only offering it in the CD.

[Ice]

Finally. Was rediculous only offering it in the CD.

completely agree......much more appealing now.

[DirtyHarry]

they should change the name of the cruze to "sunbird"
:-)

[Wraith]

Finally. Was rediculous only offering it in the CD.

+ 2 !!!

This puts that car back on my shortlist now :eek:

I am actually quite fond of the CDX 'package' except for the powertrain and quite fond of the Cruze oiler except for the rest of the package and actually asked a GMH dealer about this one and was told "no you can't have it both ways"...hence why I scrubbed it from my list...

What I'll start doing now is comparing it to the other mid 30k's (drive-away) priced vehicles on my list :)

Arriving early 2010, perfect timing :cornut:

Lets see if the 5% import tarrif reduction does anything to the price point...

[Wraith]

they should change the name of the cruze to "sunbird"
:-)

Sunbird was an Opel POS, this is a 'decent' Daewoo POS :p

[dieselhead]

Now that's more like it Holden! This should sell well, can't see any reason buying a Mazda 3 or a Focus instead of a CDX oiler. Especially knowing how much more grunt you can get for a few hundred bucks, now that the pound is cheaper for us :D

[Wraith]

Now that's more like it Holden! This should sell well, can't see any reason buying a Mazda 3 or a Focus instead of a CDX oiler. Especially knowing how much more grunt you can get for a few hundred bucks, now that the pound is cheaper for us :D

Well I can agree, but Mazda will shortly introduce the Mazda 3 oiler in their range !!!

And ' if ' we get as lucky as Europe and other markets, we'll get the Mazda 3 oiler variant with the Mazda 6's oiler engine - which is a 2.2ltr 136kw / 400nm donk stock standard and has been 'acoustically' designed and made to run 'quietly' not like a bucket of loose bolts and sound more like a petrol engine !!!

If the above happens, I'd say you'd have to be a total nut bag to buy anything else in this price point if your in the market for an oiler...CDX oiler Cruze wouldn't even compare ! ie. mechanically and total package wise, looks are a different matter as we all already know...

Of course if you had a much bigger budget, the BMW range of oilers and the like are fantastic, eg. the 123d Coupe...I've read these things can get 170kw / 500+nm with only a remap...

[dieselhead]

True, but 123d is not available here yet.
The Mazda 3 oiler could be OK, however, it will cost at least $2-3k more than the Cruze for less gear, I betcha. Wasn't the previous 3 diesel model selling for over $30k plus onroads? On the other hand, would they be really competing? In my previous post I was saying that can't see any reason to go for a petrol Mazda 3 (say SP25) over a CDX Crzue that has similar (or more, just add box) grunt and price. A Diesel 3 withe leather and a few extras will be too exxy for what it is IMHO. Golf DSG territory and that's just plain silly, would you agree?

[USC]

But a cruze diesel is still a daewoo! how reliable will it be? I guess we`ll find out in 10 years time.

[ChrisMaz]

But a cruze diesel is still a daewoo! how reliable will it be? I guess we`ll find out in 10 years time.

+1.

I'm pretty skeptical at how well these things will run. The epica wasn't exactly reliable...

[dmrmgl]

OMG. want CDX disel for neXt car!

[rjastra]

The problem with the Mazda 3 diesel is there is no auto. Pretty much counts it out of the market.

[Wraith]

True, but 123d is not available here yet.
The Mazda 3 oiler could be OK, however, it will cost at least $2-3k more than the Cruze for less gear, I betcha. Wasn't the previous 3 diesel model selling for over $30k plus onroads? On the other hand, would they be really competing? In my previous post I was saying that can't see any reason to go for a petrol Mazda 3 (say SP25) over a CDX Crzue that has similar (or more, just add box) grunt and price. A Diesel 3 withe leather and a few extras will be too exxy for what it is IMHO. Golf DSG territory and that's just plain silly, would you agree?

Yes, I see your point...no need to cross shop between a SP25 or CDX oiler, it would be either one or the other...

The Mazda oiler will be pricier than the Cruze, BUT what's different is that Mazda dealers are very, very willing to move or budge on pricing, something that is non-existant (from what I've heard so far) with trying to do the same on a Cruze...GMH dealers won't move at all on them...

Then there's the long or even immediate term reliability issue as raised by others with the Cruze, we don't really know how good they'll be long term, then there's the compounding problem of the very poor reputation GMH has built up recently with how poorly they deal with this type of situations...there's no such worries with the Mazda on that one...

Out of interest another vehicle on my short list is the MY09 Mitsubishi VRX sedan, checked one out last weekend and was very impressed with the o/a package and pricing - it's shaping out to be a top contender in every respect and it comes with the best warranty on the planet...it's also doing very well with reviews.

Will be hopefully test driving one (with 6spd. auto CVT) this weekend :)

[Wraith]

The problem with the Mazda 3 diesel is there is no auto. Pretty much counts it out of the market.

That's right and I believe this is the reason why Mazda havn't fussed about introducing it much earlier...they realise sales volumes will be low...

[USC]

Dunno why ozzies are obsessed with Auto cars - they are crap! seriously...for lazy people who have no driving skills. In europe, most cars are manual! DSG is a different thing but then again, I would take a manual car any day - much more fun and feels like you are in control of the machine.

[Wraith]

Dunno why ozzies are obsessed with Auto cars - they are crap! seriously...for lazy people who have no driving skills. In europe, most cars are manual! DSG is a different thing but then again, I would take a manual car any day - much more fun and feels like you are in control of the machine.

Hmmm, can't agree with that one sorry USC...It's a case of each to their own again ;)

Having owned many types of both over the last 25 years, my o/a preference now is for a good auto, especially as a daily driver and especially if your daily commute is through peak traffic, a manual is an absolute pain day in, day out in those driving conditions...

Weekend or fun/hobby/track car different story, a manual's fine :)

These days autos have come a long way and alot of the newer performance types are fantastic...check out the 7spd. in the new 370Z, (I fanged one 2 weeks ago ;) )it'll shift as hard and as fast as a DSG and blips/rev matches on downshifts just like a DSG.

The new CVT's in the Mitsubishis shift very fast too and the 'continuously variable ratio' is a great innovation IMHO - hopefully I'll test drive one of those (Lancer 2.4 VRX) this weekend...

Automated manuals are the ultimate IMHO and they can only get better, I'd say the best going ATM is BMW's 7spd DCT, it's a sensation to drive :)

[MatsHolden]

+1.

I'm pretty skeptical at how well these things will run. The epica wasn't exactly reliable...

Completely different generation of vehicle.

[dieselhead]

I don't know why you're bagging Daewoo. I still own a Lacetti that I bought new 5.5 years ago that had ZERO problems. Oh well, the cam sensor failed, but nothing major, got replaced for $50 along with the timing belt as per the manual. The car is still tight as a nut, nothing rattles and everything is running smoothly. What reliability issues?

[USC]

Hmmm, can't agree with that one sorry USC...It's a case of each to their own again ;)

Having owned many types of both over the last 25 years, my o/a preference now is for a good auto, especially as a daily driver and especially if your daily commute is through peak traffic, a manual is an absolute pain day in, day out in those driving conditions...

Weekend or fun/hobby/track car different story, a manual's fine :)

These days autos have come a long way and alot of the newer performance types are fantastic...check out the 7spd. in the new 370Z, (I fanged one 2 weeks ago ;) )it'll shift as hard and as fast as a DSG and blips/rev matches on downshifts just like a DSG.

The new CVT's in the Mitsubishis shift very fast too and the 'continuously variable ratio' is a great innovation IMHO - hopefully I'll test drive one of those (Lancer 2.4 VRX) this weekend...

Automated manuals are the ultimate IMHO and they can only get better, I'd say the best going ATM is BMW's 7spd DCT, it's a sensation to drive :)

You are not a true car enthusiast then!:p
I would never buy auto but as you said...each to their own :)

[Wraith]

You are not a true car enthusiast then!:p
I would never buy auto but as you said...each to their own :)

Well, I have and enjoy both :) that makes me a very keen car enthusiast :p :D

If it had to be only one, I'd definitely go with a good automated manual, regardless of the expense :)

[Wraith]

I don't know why you're bagging Daewoo. I still own a Lacetti that I bought new 5.5 years ago that had ZERO problems. Oh well, the cam sensor failed, but nothing major, got replaced for $50 along with the timing belt as per the manual. The car is still tight as a nut, nothing rattles and everything is running smoothly. What reliability issues?

That's a very good endorsement for the brand Diesel :)

But I think most peoples comments arn't bagging the Daewoo, but simply pointing out the 'unknown' long term reliability factor on the new Cruze - we can't know as this model is only new, only time will tell...

[dieselhead]

Look, the time of rusting bodies and shoddy, unreliable engines, is long gone. On the other hand, I see people here talking about what happens when the car is 10 years or older. Are you guys serious to worry about how the Cruze would work in 2019?! Is this model some limited edition or something to worth worrying about a $28k investment in 10 years from now? :D Heck, just go on other car enthusiast websites, I'm talking about expensive brands here, to see how many problems they've got with older cars that cost the good part of $100k or even more when new. GM put too much into this car to stuff it up for some stupid reliability issues, for sure. The Cruze will do just fine in this regard.

[Wraith]

Look, the time of rusting bodies and shoddy, unreliable engines, is long gone. On the other hand, I see people here talking about what happens when the car is 10 years or older. Are you guys serious to worry about how the Cruze would work in 2019?! Is this model some limited edition or something to worth worrying about a $28k investment in 10 years from now? :D Heck, just go on other car enthusiast websites, I'm talking about expensive brands here, to see how many problems they've got with older cars that cost the good part of $100k or even more when new. GM put too much into this car to stuff it up for some stupid reliability issues, for sure. The Cruze will do just fine in this regard.

Very true, you certainly don't have to tell me that, I love expensive exotics but I've pointed it out so many times on threads at just how troublesome high quality brands like say Audis can be...

Hopefully your right and it won't end up being a lemon :)

[Hoss]

I read a review a few weeks ago about the CD diesel, which said that it had a heap of turbo lag. I don't know how accurate the review was as I haven't driven a Cruze.

[USC]

turbo lag?? on a diesel?? hmmm....

[rjastra]

turbo lag?? on a diesel?? hmmm....

They all have turbo lag.

[USC]

They all have turbo lag.


yeah..but i wouldnt think it would have been that bad on a diesel..given the torque at low revs.

[dieselhead]

Diesels don't have lag, they have off boost only. Mine pulls anywhere above 1,800 rpm. Keeping it under and trying to accelerate, blaming "the lag", would be just silly :)
The variable geometry turbine along with the high pressure exhaust gasses will take care of any lag issues. Having said that, it is possible that the ECU is programmed to lag a bit and protect the gearbox and the clutch, but that's nothing a remap or a box can't fix :)

[rjastra]

Diesels don't have lag, they have off boost only. Mine pulls anywhere above 1,800 rpm. Keeping it under and trying to accelerate, blaming "the lag", would be just silly :)
)

Lag = off boost

[dieselhead]

Wrong my friend. Lag happens when you are on boost and represents the amount of time the turbine needs to spin up after using the loud pedal. Diesels don't have lag because the two factors mentioned above. Don't believe me? Just check the wiki. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_lag#Turbo_Lag)

[mania]

I find car magazines and reviewers equate Boost Threshold (the rpm where the turbo begins to work) to lag (caused by too much piping, heavy turbine, etc) so much so it's easier just to give in and consider them the same.. otherwise you won't be understood :p

[dieselhead]

with all due respect, the car magazines you are talking about do not get diesel engines. if you jump in any turbocharged car and wonder why is not pulling from idle and you call that lag, what ca I say...
simplified, lag happens only when turbine is spinning. you can't blame the turbo for not running if you are too low in the rev range.

[Wraith]

They all have turbo lag.

Alas, that is a thing of the past (at least that's what reviews say) of the new breed of twin turbo diesels, like the 2.2ltr in the BMW 123d.

As long as they keep getting better, it's all good :)

[Wraith]

I find car magazines and reviewers equate Boost Threshold (the rpm where the turbo begins to work) to lag (caused by too much piping, heavy turbine, etc) so much so it's easier just to give in and consider them the same.. otherwise you won't be understood :p

You guys are both right...

There's the actual 'technical' lag which diesel has described and then there's 'percieved' lag which basically everyone relates to when it comes to forced induction...

Don't want lag from forced induction ?? get a supercharged vehicle :cornut:

[cbrmale]

It's still a Daewoo. My experience of Korean cars is that the electrics and other components that have been sub-contracted out to small-scale Korean manufacturers are very second-rate. So you get a near-continuous run of faults throughout the warranty period, sometimes enough to stop the car such as the fuel pump relay failure or the shorted transmission control unit wiring that I suffered with my Hyundai. And then you get it fixed and something else goes: the hatch struts start leaking, the radio fails, the remote sensor fails, the cruise control packs up and so on.

In short, I would never, ever buy a Korean car again. The basic engine, transmission and chassis are robust enough, but all these little components cause endless problems.

[Wraith]

It's still a Daewoo. My experience of Korean cars is that the electrics and other components that have been sub-contracted out to small-scale Korean manufacturers are very second-rate. So you get a near-continuous run of faults throughout the warranty period, sometimes enough to stop the car such as the fuel pump relay failure or the shorted transmission control unit wiring that I suffered with my Hyundai. And then you get it fixed and something else goes: the hatch struts start leaking, the radio fails, the remote sensor fails, the cruise control packs up and so on.

In short, I would never, ever buy a Korean car again. The basic engine, transmission and chassis are robust enough, but all these little components cause endless problems.

The above remains to be seen as it's still early days and GMH 'reckon' they've taken care to make sure the car is of a 'certain' overall standard...

As I've mentioned previously in other threads a very good friend of mine has a CDX petrol Cruze, I'll keep a close eye on that vehicle and let you all know if she encounters any such problems...

The other thing is that as from about late next year, the Cruze will be locally built (GMH plant in Adelaide) so those issues may not be such a worry then - maybe ??

[DirtyHarry]

well i test drove a diesel mazda 6 today....and i have to say for a car thats supposed to have 400nm of torque i was very dissapointed.
the car is build quite well and it drive nicely, but performance wise, i found very lack luster.

anyone else test drive one of these vehicles?

[dieselhead]

Well, what do you expect, a fat arse Mazda could have 400 Nm but is too heavy for performance. Moreover, Ford's Diesel are not top notch either, exception being the V6s used in Jags.

[DirtyHarry]

yeah thats what im thinking it is, apparently the weight of the car is something in between 1450kg and 1650kg. so yeah possibly too heavy.
nice car overall, but definetly not worth the $47k that the dealer wanted.

[Wraith]

well i test drove a diesel mazda 6 today....and i have to say for a car thats supposed to have 400nm of torque i was very dissapointed.
the car is build quite well and it drive nicely, but performance wise, i found very lack luster.

anyone else test drive one of these vehicles?

That's just typical of any oiler Harry !

Maybe this new gen. of twin turbo oilers with more kw can address the issue...

AFAIK according to Mazda performance figures on that vehicle, it's supposed to be capable of 0-100km/h in 7.9sec if it can 'actually' do that, it would make it one of the faster TD vehicles out there...

Have you driven a stock AH oiler for comparison ?? with figures of 8.9 and 11.4 respectively for manual/auto, that's what you'd call slow...you'd have to take truckie pills to keep awake LOL...

Question for you Harry, what did it sound like ?? ie. the engine ??

Again according to Mazda and other reports I've read, it's supposed to sound like a petrol engine, that's been 'done away' with the typical oiler clatter and be silky smooth and quiet whilst on the move unlike most oilers which sound like a metal bucket with bolts in it being rattled...

[DirtyHarry]

hey wraith, actually to tell you the truth the engine quite distincitvely sounded like a diesel. a little bit quiter, but you could still tell the difference. even in the cabin you could hear that its a diesel.
i havent driven a ah oiler or even a cruze diesel yet...trying to get my hands on one.
but i have to say the mazda 3 that i drove weeks ago seemed to pull harder than the mazda 6 diesel (and this has more torque and power too).
definetly didnt feel like a 0-100 in 7.9second car.
in my opinion, overall nice car, but not worth the money for the diesel side of things.
petrol consumption wise its not fantastic either.. i think the figures around town was around 7.8 and on the highway 5.9...which is not much better than a 1.8 astra or even probably a standard mazda 3.
i remember my ts astra on the highway used to get 5.7 and around 8.3 around town

[Wraith]

hey wraith, actually to tell you the truth the engine quite distincitvely sounded like a diesel. a little bit quiter, but you could still tell the difference. even in the cabin you could hear that its a diesel.
i havent driven a ah oiler or even a cruze diesel yet...trying to get my hands on one.
but i have to say the mazda 3 that i drove weeks ago seemed to pull harder than the mazda 6 diesel (and this has more torque and power too).
definetly didnt feel like a 0-100 in 7.9second car.
in my opinion, overall nice car, but not worth the money for the diesel side of things.
petrol consumption wise its not fantastic either.. i think the figures around town was around 7.8 and on the highway 5.9...which is not much better than a 1.8 astra or even probably a standard mazda 3.
i remember my ts astra on the highway used to get 5.7 and around 8.3 around town

Interesting, thanks for the feed back Harry :)

I've checked them out, but only 'statically' havn't heard one running yet, only the petrol powered model...

I was of the impression though, that either one of the petrol or diesel Mazda 6 luxury models were competitively priced for their overall package...

Don't know what else you could get out there in a diesel that offers the same level of features/equipment/safety etc. and as much car as you get with a Mazda 6 diesel for the money...??

They certainly are better looking than the Mazda 3 range as well, but that's subjective :)

Maybe you should consider the Mazda 3 SP25 luxury pack, get one of those with everything, it goes better as you said than the 6 oiler and it's 10k cheaper ;)

Or if your going to spend mid 40k's and don't mind the fuel burn, get the MPS3 :cornut:

[rjastra]

Random examples of alternatives to Mazda 6 diesels

Skoda RS TDI (hatch or wagon), manual or dsg
Passat TDI - 125kw. Sedan or Wagon
BMW 118/120/123D. hatch, coupe or convertible
Renault Laguna cTDI
Mondeo TDCI
Jetta TDI, GOLF GTD

The Mazda 6 TD is quoted as a 0-100km/h in 8.5 secs. No faster than the petrol version. The diesel 6 is a porker at 1640kg (thats near Commodore weight!)

[DirtyHarry]

yeah i dont think the next car will be european make..
either jap or ozie (might take the sidi commodore for a drive)

[Wraith]

Random examples of alternatives to Mazda 6 diesels

Skoda RS TDI (hatch or wagon), manual or dsg
Passat TDI - 125kw. Sedan or Wagon
BMW 118/120/123D. hatch, coupe or convertible
Renault Laguna cTDI
Mondeo TDCI
Jetta TDI, GOLF GTD

The Mazda 6 TD is quoted as a 0-100km/h in 8.5 secs. No faster than the petrol version. The diesel 6 is a porker at 1640kg (thats near Commodore weight!)

That's an interesting list rj, but some of those above cost alot more than a Mazda 6 luxury oiler and offer only half as much car and/or features, specifically the Beemers there...the 118 is a true POS povo pack and the 123D hatch will cost well over 50k kitted out anywhere near decent, forget the coupe or vert unless you want to go over 60 or 70k...for that much, bugger the Beemers and the oilers and just go for a Passat R36 sedan or wagon !!!

My pick out of that bunch would be the Mondeo, classy car with all the bells and whistles and as far as the oiler goes, it got the thumbs up from Test Drive Australia...Maybe Harry should look at one of those :)

As for the Mazda 6 oiler, 8.5sec aint too shabby for an oiler especially considering its size and weight, it's faster/quicker than any Astra or other Opel oiler, far better equipped, would be 10x more reliable and looks a hell of lot better too !

[Wraith]

yeah i dont think the next car will be european make..
either jap or ozie (might take the sidi commodore for a drive)

Might be a good choice there, not as classy or finely equipped as a Mazda 6 luxury but a whole lot of car for the money and very good performance and economy :)

[rjastra]

That's an interesting list rj, but some of those above cost alot more than a Mazda 6 luxury oiler and offer only half as much car and/or features, specifically the Beemers there...the 118 is a true POS povo pack and the 123D hatch will cost well over 50k kitted out anywhere near decent, forget the coupe or vert unless you want to go over 60 or 70k...for that much, bugger the Beemers and the oilers and just go for a Passat R36 sedan or wagon !!!

My pick out of that bunch would be the Mondeo, classy car with all the bells and whistles and as far as the oiler goes, it got the thumbs up from Test Drive Australia...Maybe Harry should look at one of those :)

As for the Mazda 6 oiler, 8.5sec aint too shabby for an oiler especially considering its size and weight, it's faster/quicker than any Astra or other Opel oiler, far better equipped, would be 10x more reliable and looks a hell of lot better too !

The Mazda 6 TD is 44K+ORC... its just as expensive as its competitors and its performance is similar to the euros (since they are all much lighter). Not to mention no auto.

personally... i don't think the japanese "get" diesel cars.

[dieselhead]

Give me one reason why I would get a Mazda 6 over Skoda RS with DSG for the same kind of dosh, talking oilers here.

[rjastra]

Give me one reason why I would get a Mazda 6 over Skoda RS with DSG for the same kind of dosh, talking oilers here.

Have no idea :)

Jut read this about the new Volvo s60 and its "new" petrol engine. This car is a Mondeo competitor. I think this is a Ford EcoBoost derivative.


Australian specifications are yet to be finalised, but expect Volvo’s advanced 1.6-litre Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection (GTDi) engine to join the S60 line-up at a later stage.

Aided by an idle-stop city-driving function in the S60 concept, the new GTDi engine developed 134kW of power while averaging fuel consumption of 5.0L/100km and emitting 119 grams of CO2 per kilometre.


Looks like diesel fuel consumption to me.

[Wraith]

The Mazda 6 TD is 44K+ORC... its just as expensive as its competitors and its performance is similar to the euros (since they are all much lighter). Not to mention no auto.

personally... i don't think the japanese "get" diesel cars.

That may be the quoted list price, but I've seen them for 47k drive away, I think Harry's mentioned a similar price :)

Was in the Doncaster BMW dealer (again LOL) about 2 or 3 weekends ago enquiring about the new 123d, it came to 57k equipped the way I wanted it to be and this included the current $4,000 discount off the base price, which ends at the end of this month anyway...must admit though I'm interested in it because of the new tech oiler it's running, but still can't get over the looks, the coupe and vert look much better...


Give me one reason why I would get a Mazda 6 over Skoda RS with DSG for the same kind of dosh, talking oilers here.

IMHO I'd go for the Mazda 6 because for me it looks better both inside and outside and IMHO it'll be more reliable and last longer and therefore cost less money to run over the period of ownership, it also looks to be of a better finish inside and outside than the Skoda (although I havn't seen the Skoda in the metal just from pics, so I could be wrong on that point) and at the end of the day, unless you get a much better deal than list price from Skoda, the Mazda 6 is cheaper, so your left with change in your pocket as well buying the Mazda over the Skoda...more than enough reasons for me :)

Also if reviews are anything to go by, those on the Mazda 6 are far more favourable than those on the Skoda Octavia, from the ones I've read anyway ;)

[rjastra]

Wraith: The Skoda RS TDI is list priced at 44K on road without a discount. So I see it being at least 4K (probably 6K!) cheaper than a Mazda 6TDI. Enough to option a sunroof and xenons on the Skoda.

Re: the 123D... the performance of this car cr@ps over any of the other diesel cars we are talking about. That's why it is exxy! A more direct comparison is the 120D (125kw, 340Nm) which is a $48K car (minus the 4K at the moment)

[USC]

The other thing is that as from about late next year, the Cruze will be locally built (GMH plant in Adelaide) so those issues may not be such a worry then - maybe ??

you reckon?? hmm..if they are built like camry`s..then yes..if they are built like falcons and commodores...then no.

[Wraith]

Wraith: The Skoda RS TDI is list priced at 44K on road without a discount. So I see it being at least 4K (probably 6K!) cheaper than a Mazda 6TDI. Enough to option a sunroof and xenons on the Skoda.

Re: the 123D... the performance of this car cr@ps over any of the other diesel cars we are talking about. That's why it is exxy! A more direct comparison is the 120D (125kw, 340Nm) which is a $48K car (minus the 4K at the moment)

My appologies, I obviously looked at the wrong vehicle/variant pricing, still for me with only a 3k difference I'd still go for the Mazda, it has the sunroof and all the other bells and whistles in the 47k drive away price :)

I agree, the 123d is a good oiler vehicle to consider, BTW it's performance is 0-100km/h in 7.9sec (claimed) so more realistically it'll be be around 8-8.5sec. however the only reason it's exxy is because of the badge it wears - we all know that ;)


you reckon?? hmm..if they are built like camry`s..then yes..if they are built like falcons and commodores...then no.

We won't know until it happens USC, I've always said 'maybe' on that part of the story :)

Hopefully GMH can do a better job than Toyota Australia, afterall Japanese manufacturing would be a hard act to follow in Australia...

[JohnBu]

does the 123d exist in Australia????

[dieselhead]

Wraith, the 123d hatch gets to 100km/h in 7.0 seconds, while the 120d needs 7.6 seconds. The coupe is one tenth faster. Interesting to see the 80-120km/h is a brilliant 5.5 seconds in 4th and 6.6 seconds in fifth! Again, the coupe is one tenth faster here, too.
Now, imagine the 123d tuned to 180kW and 490 Nm, mid six seconds to 100km/h would be dead easy then, if not low sixes.
Got the info at bmw.de

[rjastra]

Wraith, the 123d hatch gets to 100km/h in 7.0 seconds, while the 120d needs 7.6 seconds. The coupe is one tenth faster. Interesting to see the 80-120km/h is a brilliant 5.5 seconds in 4th and 6.6 seconds in fifth! Again, the coupe is one tenth faster here, too.

I thought diesels were quick in gears?

Latest Motor MPS3 vs new GTI (dsg)

80-120km/h:
3.9 sec for the MPS3 in 3rd
4.1 sec for the GTI DSG in "drive"

0-100 for both is around 6.5secs. So either one would hose the best diesel hatch around at the moment. Interesting

[dieselhead]

Hey, show me times in 4th, only then we compare apples with apples.
You are right, both faster to 100km/h by half second, but the diesel does that with half the fuel.

[rjastra]

Hey, show me times in 4th, only then we compare apples with apples.
You are right, both faster to 100km/h by half second, but the diesel does that with half the fuel.

True.... but for $15K cheaper :)

[dieselhead]

That's right too, but you get a BMW not the manga version of the Ford Focus on some steroids or the supercharged People's car :)
Trust me, that extra $15k is money well spent, not only because of the savings in fuel bills but also because in 3 years time the BMW will worth almost as much as the MPS was new. I mean, there's no way we could compare them, really.

[rjastra]

That's right too, but you get a BMW not the manga version of the Ford Focus on some steroids or the supercharged People's car :)
Trust me, that extra $15k is money well spent, not only because of the savings in fuel bills but also because in 3 years time the BMW will worth almost as much as the MPS was new. I mean, there's no way we could compare them, really.

I'd have to drive one to find out.. but I am sure I would enjoy the 195Kw 130i better :)

Resale example:

Resale on the MPS3 and BMW are similar so I will use a nice round figure of 60% after 3 yrs

60% of 60K = 40k = 20K loss
60% of 40k = 24K = 16k loss

So.. if I spent 20K more originally to get the 123D over the MPS3 it will actually cost me $24K more over 3 yrs than if I had just bought the MPS3. If you buy with finance then add interest charges on top of that (a significant amount of $$$$)
I don't think a 1 series is 24K better than a MPS3/GTI. And I would suggest thats why the Golf GTI has been so successful here. 90% of the cache of a BMW at 60% of the price.

[dieselhead]

Not sure where you got the 123d's price from. It starts at $50k, not $60k. If I was buying one tomorrow, I'd go for the standard, no options needed, not even metal colour since I'd have a white one. Fabric seats OK, too-leather an option you'd pay extra for a GTI as well. With BMW's offer cutting $4k until the end of the month, well, the choice would be even easier to make.
There's one more thing we should be looking at guys: insurance cost. From what I know, turbo petrol performance cars are pretty costly to insure, especially if you're under 25. On the other hand, turbo diesels are not considered as being performance cars, despite a 123d being almost as fast as the GTI to 100km/h. I'll run a check with aami to find out which one's cheaper to insure between GTI, MPS and 123d.

[chrissn89]

Do we even have the 123d in Australia???

[dieselhead]

I think we do. Check BMW Oz website.

The new 1 Series Sports Hatch, Coupe and Convertible range will be available for customer delivery from November 2009.

The new BMW 118d and 123d range is priced from:

123d Sports Hatch 6-speed manual - $50,790*
123d Sports Hatch 6-speed steptronic - $53,070*

123d Coupe 6-speed manual - $57,900*
123d Coupe 6-speed steptronic - $60,864*

123d Convertible 6-speed manual - $67,200*
123d Convertible 6-speed steptronic - $70,164*

* Manufacturer List Price is shown and excludes dealer charges, stamp duty, statutory charges and on-road charges which are additional and vary between dealers and States/Territories. Customers are advised to contact their nearest BMW dealer for all pricing inquiries.

[chrissn89]

I think we do. Check BMW Oz website.

The new 1 Series Sports Hatch, Coupe and Convertible range will be available for customer delivery from November 2009.

The new BMW 118d and 123d range is priced from:

123d Sports Hatch 6-speed manual - $50,790*
123d Sports Hatch 6-speed steptronic - $53,070*

123d Coupe 6-speed manual - $57,900*
123d Coupe 6-speed steptronic - $60,864*

123d Convertible 6-speed manual - $67,200*
123d Convertible 6-speed steptronic - $70,164*

* Manufacturer List Price is shown and excludes dealer charges, stamp duty, statutory charges and on-road charges which are additional and vary between dealers and States/Territories. Customers are advised to contact their nearest BMW dealer for all pricing inquiries.
I already have ;)

No 123d there. Each to there own, everyone is going to think each car is bettter because..... list personal reasons.... Why do you think, we've got 5 square meters of butters to choose from at work, or 4 different brands of full cream milk, and egg is an egg right? because people like choice.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm213/chrissn89/Untitled-2.png

Edit::: found it on another page, so we do have the 123d in Aus :)

[JohnBu]

Hey, show me times in 4th, only then we compare apples with apples.
You are right, both faster to 100km/h by half second, but the diesel does that with half the fuel.

that's ridiculous.

The diesel may be equal or faster in 4, 5 or 6th, but if you want to overtake, you'll use the best gear for the speed.

in a DSG, the car will choose the gear for you.

the diesel will use more than 1/2 the fuel of a GTI- I can't comment on the MPS3. but I can't see a 123d using less than 4.5L/100km driving normally.

anyway if you like diesels, good for you. but end of the day, the petrol will be faster and rev harder. to me, it will be more fun.

Having said that I like the 123d, but for alittle extra, I'd pay for the 135i.

[hazrd]

well ive just added the cruze diesel to the list of "2nd cars" to test

currently driving a CDX petrol, the 1.8 is slow as a wet week, but its extremely comfortable, the leather feels nice and handles great

so if the 2.0L diesel actually has a bit of pull (where the petrol one seriously lacks) im in!!

[Wraith]

Hey guys, why are we even comparing the oilers to petrol hot hatches (MPS3 and MK6 Gti) in terms of performance ?? we all know the petrol hot hatches will destroy the oilers being discussed here in straight out acceleration !

Diesel I'll chase up the in gear acceleration times of the MPS3 and put em up, I'm sure 4th, 5th and 6th are better or competitive to the 123d...as far as tuning goes, you can do that to any of these vehicles and the petrols will always have the edge...so if it's ultimate performance your after, get a petrol, if it's a combination of efficiency and performance get one of the 'new gen' oilers - the current gen have loads of torque, but are as slow as a wet weekend, we all know that, we don't need to constantly repeat the facts...as for a Magna version of whatever, you'll find the MPS3 is put together and is as good or better than the Focus...

I think rj has answered your points on resale etc. regarding the Beemer, how can a 3 year old 123d be worth as much as a brand new MPS3 ??? how did you arrive at that conclusion ???

For all those who asked about availability on the 123d - 1st deliveries will be here by Jan. 2010, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I was at BMW Doncaster a few weekends ago to enquire about it and asked that question - they're taking orders ATM for them if anyones interested, bugger the RS Focus diesel, get yourself one of these since your so keen on hi po diesels and pocket the change compared to a RS Focus :)

[Wraith]

well ive just added the cruze diesel to the list of "2nd cars" to test

currently driving a CDX petrol, the 1.8 is slow as a wet week, but its extremely comfortable, the leather feels nice and handles great

so if the 2.0L diesel actually has a bit of pull (where the petrol one seriously lacks) im in!!

I too am waiting for their arrival Adam, will want to test drive one and see how good or not I feel about them, agree with your assessment of the Cruze CDX petrol - if only it had a little more poke...:)

[rjastra]

Diesel I'll chase up the in gear acceleration times of the MPS3 and put em up, I'm sure 4th, 5th and 6th are better or competitive to the 123d...as far as tuning goes, you can do that to any of these vehicles and the petrols will always have the edge...so if it's ultimate performance your after, get a petrol, if it's a combination of efficiency and performance get one of the 'new gen' oilers - the current gen have loads of torque, but are as slow as a wet weekend, we all know that, we don't need to constantly repeat the facts...as for a Magna version of whatever, you'll find the MPS3 is put together and is as good or better than the Focus...

I am not sure why people are worried about saving 20% on their fuel when depreciation is the biggest cost of vehicle ownership. If you want a hot hatch buy a GTI/MPS3 OR the deliciously engined 130I (i think its the same price as a 123d) and enjoy the huge rev range (and sound) of a petrol car.

If you really want to save $$$ then the smart money is on the 118D which is both significantly cheaper than the 123d yet is still a sub 10sec 0-100km/h car. The 118D uses 20% less fuel than the 123D!

As an aside... I have seen tests of a Renault Megane RS225 that was converted to LPG (injected). No performance hit, donut tank situated in spare wheel well and running costs about 1/2 of even a diesel car. Win Win.

[Wraith]

I am not sure why people are worried about saving 20% on their fuel when depreciation is the biggest cost of vehicle ownership. If you want a hot hatch buy a GTI/MPS3 OR the deliciously engined 130I (i think its the same price as a 123d) and enjoy the huge rev range (and sound) of a petrol car.

If you really want to save $$$ then the smart money is on the 118D which is both significantly cheaper than the 123d yet is still a sub 10sec 0-100km/h car. The 118D uses 20% less fuel than the 123D!

As an aside... I have seen tests of a Renault Megane RS225 that was converted to LPG (injected). No performance hit, donut tank situated in spare wheel well and running costs about 1/2 of even a diesel car. Win Win.

I could not agree more on all of the above !

The 'real World' fuel burn of these new breed of twin turbo oilers is in fact eroding the oiler efficiency reputation...might as well go petrol ;)

ANY BMW will depreciate up to as much as 50% and an average of 40-45% after 3 years old ! same goes for most luxo brands...118D is the smarter choice if it must be the BMW and if it must be a diesel/efficiency choice above all else, if you want performance and better looks the 123d coupe and verts are nudging awful close to the cost of a 135i and the oilers offer no comparison to that variant, as said even a 130i will be better in this respect than the oilers...

I'ts been mentioned time and time again an advanced LPG/petrol combination will walk all over an oiler, gas for efficiency, petrol for performance...

[rjastra]

The 'real World' fuel burn of these new breed of twin turbo oilers is in fact eroding the oiler efficiency reputation...might as well go petrol

Yes, very true. BMWs fastest diesels start to get quite thirsty.

Diesels also don't seem to like torque converter autos either. You get a much bigger hit in fuel consumption than you do when you specify a petrol car with an auto. Look at the difference between the manual and auto diesel Cruze

[dieselhead]

In fact, torque converters don't like diesels. Too much, you know, torque ;) I don't know what the deal is with the Cruze manual vs auto diesels, but Astra H had different engines, with different number of valves and performance.

I also don't know what real world fuel burn you're talking about guys. If my Astra is something to look at, you can flog them as much as you like and economy will still be brilliant when compared to a similar performance petrol engine. Much more so with the twin turbo diesel engines. Already when it comes to 4X4, the diesel has no competition. Sure, engine sound and revvs are a matter of taste, but the performance figures are facts. If I had the money I'd get a 330d right now, or even better, a 335d that will one day get here. Would anyone say that's not a fast car?!

I totally agree that a 335i is more of a driver's car than the 335d. On a race track, petrol beats diesel, but not by a huge margin. In the real life that you're talking about though, the oiler will leave the petrol behind. Even if it is for the simple fact that you stop at the bowser more often when driving the 335i :)

[mania]

Yes, very true. BMWs fastest diesels start to get quite thirsty.

Diesels also don't seem to like torque converter autos either. You get a much bigger hit in fuel consumption than you do when you specify a petrol car with an auto. Look at the difference between the manual and auto diesel Cruze

Probably because Diesels biggest gain is from their lack of throttle losses, giving very efficient freeway cruising and idling. Add a lossy torque converting auto box and this efficient "light load" is lost..


that's ridiculous.

The diesel may be equal or faster in 4, 5 or 6th, but if you want to overtake, you'll use the best gear for the speed. Assuming the diesel can do 120kmh in 3rd (perhaps a large assumption), the figures should have both been in the same gear. Otherwise 3rd gear in the petrol vs 4th gear in the diesel's a fair comparison..

[sooty]

Assuming the diesel can do 120kmh in 3rd (perhaps a large assumption)
80-120 is it's perfect power band in third ;) would be much, much quicker than it's speed in fourth

[mania]

There you go. Pointless comparing 3rd in petrol to 4th in the diesel then :p

[dieselhead]

Just curious, you petrolheads, what gear you're in on a 80km/h road, sneaking through traffic? Third?

[mania]

If being aggressive.. otherwise quite comfortable being in any gear.

[poita]

80km/hr i use 4th gear in the mazda and the calibra

[dieselhead]

Well, that's exactly why 4th and 5th are used to test 80-120 km/h, not 2nd, 3rd or 7th. I real life you won't swap a cog down just because you find enough space to sneak in front of the rusty Excel.
The test is an indication of the power train's elasticity, not of absolute speed when you'd use the best gear available to you, and the one with more torques wins. Looking on bmw.de we see that in 4th 330d is half a second faster in this test than 335i.

See, that's why I like performance diesels so much, they really work in real life. How many 0-100 km/h you do in a day, on you commute on evading the city on weekends? Not many, if any myself ;) 80-100 km/h (and just a tiny bit beyond) on the other hand, heaps. I've got a bad habit of constantly hunting for the gap, habit that took with me from Europe. The oiler's torque allows me to drive the way I like it, without trying hard and quietly, too.
Damn, those 123d beamers are too expensive though...

[mania]

Agree completely. Torque-y motors are great for the daily drive. One reason why I like euro turbo cars :).

[rjastra]

Agree completely. Torque-y motors are great for the daily drive. One reason why I like euro turbo cars :).

Exactly... the point missed by diesel fanatics :)

Compare a turbo diesel car with a turbo petrol model. Then the only real advantage is fuel consumption. And if I am not mistaken BMW turbo petrol cars can quite happily run on cats piss 91RON.

Currently my turbo Polo has 300+ Nm. And that's an old tech engine. And it comes on strong below 2000rpm.

I do agree that diesels make heaps of sense in large cars and SUVs.

Once petrol turbo cars do away with throttles (BMW, Fiat Multi-air) then fuel consumption will string dramatically. Then the benefit of diesel will be it has 17% more energy per litre than petrol.

[mania]

Once petrol turbo cars do away with throttles (BMW, Fiat Multi-air) then fuel consumption will string dramatically. Then the benefit of diesel will be it has 17% more energy per litre than petrol.

Just reading about Multi-Air now. From the name I assumed it was a multi-track intake system or some such rubbish... it's actually amazing. Sounds like it'll give an engine the top end power of VTEC, along with the fuel efficiency of a diesel. That + direct injection... why would we want any other kind of engine?

(Does the last sentence make this post vaguely on topic?)

[Wraith]

In fact, torque converters don't like diesels. Too much, you know, torque ;) I don't know what the deal is with the Cruze manual vs auto diesels, but Astra H had different engines, with different number of valves and performance.

I also don't know what real world fuel burn you're talking about guys. If my Astra is something to look at, you can flog them as much as you like and economy will still be brilliant when compared to a similar performance petrol engine. Much more so with the twin turbo diesel engines. Already when it comes to 4X4, the diesel has no competition. Sure, engine sound and revvs are a matter of taste, but the performance figures are facts. If I had the money I'd get a 330d right now, or even better, a 335d that will one day get here. Would anyone say that's not a fast car?!

I totally agree that a 335i is more of a driver's car than the 335d. On a race track, petrol beats diesel, but not by a huge margin. In the real life that you're talking about though, the oiler will leave the petrol behind. Even if it is for the simple fact that you stop at the bowser more often when driving the 335i :)

"Real World' consumption numbers as in what they actually consume as opposed to the manufacturers 'claim' this is the case for petrol engines too :)

Same goes with performance figures, they rarely match the claimed figures...

From what I've read on reviews of the 123d if you flog it (and why wouldn't you) you can expect much higher fuel burn than the factory claim...

[Wraith]

Exactly... the point missed by diesel fanatics :)

Compare a turbo diesel car with a turbo petrol model. Then the only real advantage is fuel consumption. And if I am not mistaken BMW turbo petrol cars can quite happily run on cats piss 91RON.

Currently my turbo Polo has 300+ Nm. And that's an old tech engine. And it comes on strong below 2000rpm.

I do agree that diesels make heaps of sense in large cars and SUVs.

Once petrol turbo cars do away with throttles (BMW, Fiat Multi-air) then fuel consumption will string dramatically. Then the benefit of diesel will be it has 17% more energy per litre than petrol.

Interesting last paragraph there rj...

[MatsHolden]

From what I've read on reviews of the 123d if you flog it (and why wouldn't you) you can expect much higher fuel burn than the factory claim...

Isn't that just common sense?

[Wraith]

Well, that's exactly why 4th and 5th are used to test 80-120 km/h, not 2nd, 3rd or 7th. I real life you won't swap a cog down just because you find enough space to sneak in front of the rusty Excel.
The test is an indication of the power train's elasticity, not of absolute speed when you'd use the best gear available to you, and the one with more torques wins. Looking on bmw.de we see that in 4th 330d is half a second faster in this test than 335i.

See, that's why I like performance diesels so much, they really work in real life. How many 0-100 km/h you do in a day, on you commute on evading the city on weekends? Not many, if any myself ;) 80-100 km/h (and just a tiny bit beyond) on the other hand, heaps. I've got a bad habit of constantly hunting for the gap, habit that took with me from Europe. The oiler's torque allows me to drive the way I like it, without trying hard and quietly, too.
Damn, those 123d beamers are too expensive though...

Good call on 'real life' conditions...IMO the 80-120km/h or 80-100km/h are really not one bit as common as accelerating from a standing start or from any lower speeds to 50km/h, 60km/h or 80km/h in everyday driving conditions...

Those are the main posted speed limits on most roads and your always taking off from standstills whether it be traffic lights or traffic congestion or from low rolling speeds...

Accelerating from 80km/h up would only happen on freeways or if your speeding over the limit on normal roadways !

Given the above circumstances, the petrol powered vehicles will be better in terms of acceleration not the diesels...


Isn't that just common sense?

Yes - totally agree, was commenting/adding to rj's comments in earlier posts, where some people seem to think these diesels will still achieve efficiency or fuel burn numbers similar to current diesels which is not the case...

[rjastra]

New Mazda 3 TD

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C64E04B68EA213C0CA257671000629B4

[Wraith]

New Mazda 3 TD

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C64E04B68EA213C0CA257671000629B4

And it's the 2.2ltr donk powered variant as supplied to Europe and other parts the World from the Mazda 6 and not the previous 2.0ltr diesel donk, even though it's 'detuned' I'm sure it can be re-mapped or piggy back boxed back up to the same or more output that it has in the Mazda 6, that should provide respectable performance :)

Now hopefully it is a definite and Mazda Aust. do bring it in...

Would be nice if you could also get it in SP25 trim level...