Opinions on Subby Impreza

[imay]

It's looking like it could be getting close to time for a change (wife's Astra, not the convertible!) and the Subaru Impreza RS hatch is gaining her undivided attention at the moment.

Anyone on here got one, know of anyone that's got one, or got an opinion? Probably won't matter what you say anyway (my opinion hasn't counted for much so far!) but any background from people that are "in the know" would be very beneficial, before she actually makes up her mind.
To be honest, I really can't find too much at fault with them. Actually prefer them over the Mazda3. Test drove one recently and really wasn't impressed. Whereas the Impreza seems to be ticking all the boxes quiet easily.

So, don't hold back guys/girls. Any opinions appreciated.

[Vectracious]

cant really go wrong with an Impreza - built well, and you'll have little issues with the boxer engine as long as its serviced as per the logbook.

interior plastics are a bit crappy but if you or your wife can live with that, its a great car.*

*biased Ex Subaru owner. :)

[USC]

Have you considered the sedan with dual exhaust?but I guess the rear lights dont look as good as the hatch.

Someone here bought a WRX hatch a while ago... He might have some feedback for you.

Subarus are generally well built, Its made in japan, It does not have the smiley front bumper (hehe) - and you get AWD. Are you getting auto or manual? The only thing I could comment on is the interior..it does not look as nice/modern as the mazda...looks a bit cheap.

Did you test drive the new generation mazda 3 hatch? which model...neo, maxx, maxx sport, sp25 or mps?

[gmonkey]

I love the new hatch its a well put together car. Only other option I can think of is a lancer ralliart or civic si or liberty

[boorny88]

subi nice car well built but service and maintanice is the expesive part of but if you want it go for it

[Vectracious]

subi nice car well built but service and maintanice is the expesive part of but if you want it go for it

??? turbo service runs to about 250-300 every 6 months with a big service (around 800-1000) every 2 years. N/A would be cheaper.

Hardly expensive considering servicing Astras and Veccys at Holden cost 500/year.

[gman]

Having owned 3 Subaru's I can say they are great cars..

The NA versions (owned one, Liberty Sedan) are a little down on power and use a little more fuel than comparable vehicles from other manufacturers for the same size engine. But the boxer is smooth and has lots of torque.

That said, the two STi's and one Liberty I have owned never missed a beat. And the STi's copped an absolute beating!!!

[rjastra]

Wheels or Motor did a test of all the small sedans (<30K I think) recently. The downsides of the Impreza were the interior plastics and how SLOW it was. Its too heavy for the poor 2L engine. They like the rest of the car (the sedan version). Smooth ride and fairly quiet.

I suppose if you were to get one, the RS is the poor value model in the range. I would be wondering if the $5500 more for the RS is worth it over the basic R (same engine, suspension etc) or the cheaper RX. You are getting close to the price of a SP25 or Golf 118tsi for the price of the Impreza RS.

As Wraith said, the Mazda 3 (2L models) is a better car overall, and dare I say it, a Cruze is better value for money.

[BEK-46P]

Not keen on 'em. My sis owns the RS. It's like driving a toy and the whole thing feels very flimsy... at least compared to the Astras.

[imay]

Have you considered the sedan with dual exhaust?but I guess the rear lights dont look as good as the hatch.

Someone here bought a WRX hatch a while ago... He might have some feedback for you.

Subarus are generally well built, Its made in japan, It does not have the smiley front bumper (hehe) - and you get AWD. Are you getting auto or manual? The only thing I could comment on is the interior..it does not look as nice/modern as the mazda...looks a bit cheap.

Did you test drive the new generation mazda 3 hatch? which model...neo, maxx, maxx sport, sp25 or mps?

She doesn't want a sedan - prefers to stick with what she is comfortable with. Plus we really don't mind the single pipe on the hatch.
Sedan boot is actually bigger than the hatch as the tail is a good 6 inches longer. But the hatch is still a more practical shape, in my opinion.

Auto as she doesn't do manual. But, in her defence, she drives to and from in peak traffic every day. And with the Sports-shift (woohoo) I can still have a bit of a play when/if I'm allowed to drive it.

Interior in the RS is nice. The RS gets the sports seats which are far, far more comfortable than the R/RX. Leather/sunroof/HID package is good value at $3000, but the leather is not of a very good quality and seats aren't heated.

Test drove the Maxx Sport and the SP25 (which was my initial choice). I really thought the Mazda3 was overdone in the dash/console area. Way too big for this size car. The puny little sat-nav was a waste of time (no bigger than my Navman). Dash that sweeps in towards the console restricts the front passenger/driver knee room too much. And it doesn't seem to matter what brand car we choose they all have crappy silver/grey painted plastic bits that are screaming out: SCRATCH ME! And, as Mazda is having no trouble selling cars at present, they were very reluctant to negotiate anywhere near what I wanted. Plus I was underwhelmed by the SP25 performance.

[JohnBu]

I wouldn't buy it for the money.

Due to AWD & weight, the performance is below par.

AWD doesn't mean better handling too..

performed quite poorly in swerving maneuver test, I was quite suprised.

anyway with ESP these days, FWD can be perform as well as AWD..

in the wet AWD will have more traction, but then again the Sub won't have enough power to use the advantages of AWD..

having said that, the AWD in the WRX gives it a distinct advantage against turbo FWD vehicles.

Golf or Mazda 3 for me.

[JohnBu]

Friend bought a SP25 auto with tint & aftermarket parking sensors.

$33,800 drive away.

Does the RS offer a decent automatic with more than 4 gears?

[Calibrated]

personally, for a new car, i wouldnt be looking at anything other than a Golf VI. maybe a cruze, but your wife doesnt want a sedan.

[gman]

If you were up for spending the $$$$'s, I would get a 2nd hand R32 Golf V...

V6 power, AWD, VW quality and they are a great thing to drive...2nd hand they might be a little more, but remember the biggest depreciation would have already been taken by someone else...

[rjastra]

Have a look at a Golf VI 90TSi with DSG and the Comfort pack. That would give you similar performance and equipment to the Subaru

The impreza only has a 4 speed auto. That explains the performance/economy issues it has.
Mazda 3 has a 5 speed, golf has a 7 speed auto.

[USC]

Does the 7 speed auto on the Golf work well or does it keep hunting for gears? Also, is it CVT or just traditional Auto?

The 118TSI Golf VI wouldnt be too bad. Have you looked at the Civic hatch? They are not too bad either...havent seen many on the road though...

Re: Silver bits....Almost every manufacturer is having those in their cars...Looks reaaaaally cheap in my opinion...WTF are they thinking?? Its like everything is being painted with cheap silver spray cans and no clear on to protect either. My mondeo XR5 has them on the exterior:eek:.... front bumper, around the fogs and on the rear bumper. Got paint chips everywhere on them...I got them re-sprayed in 2pak silver and clear coat and they seem to get less chips now...but still, I hate silver bits:mad:

[Vectracious]

Does the 7 speed auto on the Golf work well or does it keep hunting for gears? Also, is it CVT or just traditional Auto?


Its a DSG - and lots of reports have said the 7 speed DSG in the new Octavia is a bit ordinary. Haven't read anything about it in the Golf. Maybe calibrated differently? (although prob not).

[USC]

ah yeh..thats right...DSG! does DSG have variable gear ratios?

[Apex]

New Impreza is good, nice looking car, not to bad value.

If I had given up the will to live and saw a car as a means to go from A to B but still wanted something nice looking with good spec I would get a Kia Cerato and de-badge it, lots of kit for the money and they looks oh so sexy, much better than a Holden Cruise (much, much better) and cheaper than a Lancer or Impreza that both have lower spec.

[imay]

If I had given up the will to live and saw a car as a means to go from A to B but still wanted something nice looking with good spec I would get a Kia Cerato and de-badge it, lots of kit for the money and they looks oh so sexy, much better than a Holden Cruise (much, much better) and cheaper than a Lancer or Impreza that both have lower spec.

I hear where you are coming from . . . just can't bring myself to buying Korean. Perhaps later in life when I can get a beige cardigan to match.
But, you are quite right, the Cerato is very well equipped for the money, it's just that it's . . . it's . . . well it's terrible! Drive one, and you will see what I mean.
Even the Impreza in auto was disappointing when I put the foot down. 40-60 was a bit sad, much better 60-80. Haven't had a chance (yet) to give one a decent push. This is why I am after opinions BEFORE my wife decides what she wants based on color and "looks nice". There is every chance she would like the Cerato based on looks alone, which is why we won't be stopping off at the local Kia showroom to see one!

[Wraith]

It's looking like it could be getting close to time for a change (wife's Astra, not the convertible!) and the Subaru Impreza RS hatch is gaining her undivided attention at the moment.

Anyone on here got one, know of anyone that's got one, or got an opinion? Probably won't matter what you say anyway (my opinion hasn't counted for much so far!) but any background from people that are "in the know" would be very beneficial, before she actually makes up her mind.
To be honest, I really can't find too much at fault with them. Actually prefer them over the Mazda3. Test drove one recently and really wasn't impressed. Whereas the Impreza seems to be ticking all the boxes quiet easily.

So, don't hold back guys/girls. Any opinions appreciated.

Interesting Ian...as you know I too am getting closer to the time for a change/replacement DD for my Calibra and one vehicle on my still long list is the new Sube Impreza, I also recently went and checked out the new MK3 Prius - that's another story though...

I actually prefer the sedan variant of the latest Impreza model, but also would not say no to a hatch...others have already said it all I think, well built and very good value for money across the range...all up to you in the end, if you've tried the new Mazda 3 and didn't like it, maybe the Impreza is the go...just out of curiosity though, what are your thoughts on the interiors of the 2, across the new Mazda 3 range (especially SP25 and MPS3) they're far better than the new Impreza IMHO and also cost wise, I believe the new Mazda 3 is better priced than the Sube as well...

Whilst we're on this topic, did you end up test driving the MPS3 at all ??? I gather that's not the Mazda 3 variant 'the boss' is interested in...:)

[imay]

Interesting Ian...as you know I too am getting closer to the time for a change/replacement DD for my Calibra and one vehicle on my still long list is the new Sube Impreza, I also recently went and checked out the new MK3 Prius - that's another story though...

I actually prefer the sedan variant of the latest Impreza model, but also would not say no to a hatch...others have already said it all I think, well built and very good value for money across the range...all up to you in the end, if you've tried the new Mazda 3 and didn't like it, maybe the Impreza is the go...just out of curiosity though, what are your thoughts on the interiors of the 2, across the new Mazda 3 range (especially SP25 and MPS3) they're far better than the new Impreza IMHO and also cost wise, I believe the new Mazda 3 is better priced than the Sube as well...

Whilst we're on this topic, did you end up test driving the MPS3 at all ??? I gather that's not the Mazda 3 variant 'the boss' is interested in...:)

The Impreza sedan is nice, and actually has more room in the "boot" than the hatch as it is a good 6 inches longer. Val would prefer the hatch as her last cars have all been hatches and that's what she is accustomed to now.
Keeping in mind that her drive MUST be auto, that pretty much removes anything "sporty" from her list (WRX, MPS, etc.). However the Impreza RS was her choice - body kit, sports seats, 17" alloys, etc., and it is very keenly priced against others in its class. The Mazda3 Maxx Sport and SP25 just have a few features I/we weren't impressed by. Smiley face would be too much to live with, very awkward getting in and out of the back (aged parents that still need to be transported, impending grandchildren, etc.), dashboard very over-powering and crowds knee room in the front passenger cell to the point where Val felt too enclosed, pathetic excuse for an in-dash sat-nav (too small and too far away) -- and I was frankly disappointed in its driveability after all the media hype.

The MPS is still on my list of cars to drive, just so I can say I've tried it. Looks very nice in silver! The extra body kit and bonnet scoop tends to draw the eye away from the smiley face, I think.

In the end, if Holden guaranteed to bring the new Astra to Oz, that would probably be on top of our list, but that just isn't going to happen, is it. There's just something about the Euro build quality against the Japs that makes me like 'em that bit more. That's why we are looking next week at . . . . FOCUS! Sorry guys, gotta give it a look before I discount it totally. Golf is also getting a look, but I've already heard some horror stories about DSG maintenance costs and parts/options/accessories are obscenely expensive. The Golf pricing and the fact that there is only ONE supplier in Adelaide puts me off.

[Vectracious]

but I've already heard some horror stories about DSG maintenance costs and parts/options/accessories are obscenely expensive. The Golf pricing and the fact that there is only ONE supplier in Adelaide puts me off.


so did I but I investigated it further - its an oil change that occurs every 2 years/60,000km and runs to about $400-500.

I had originally heard that this oil change cost upwards of $1500!!!! of course being the internets you read all kinds of crap!

[rjastra]

In the end, if Holden guaranteed to bring the new Astra to Oz, that would probably be on top of our list, but that just isn't going to happen, is it. There's just something about the Euro build quality against the Japs that makes me like 'em that bit more. That's why we are looking next week at . . . . FOCUS! Sorry guys, gotta give it a look before I discount it totally. Golf is also getting a look, but I've already heard some horror stories about DSG maintenance costs and parts/options/accessories are obscenely expensive. The Golf pricing and the fact that there is only ONE supplier in Adelaide puts me off.

The DSG in the 1.4L Golfs is the new dry clutch version. Less maintenance required than the older wet clutch versions in the GTI and TDI versions.
I think the new DSG has an improved hill holder function as the DSG has a little lag between applying throttle from standstill and engaging the clutch (which makes sense).

A dealer accessory is flappy paddles for the DSG. Could make it more fun to drive for you.
Also, both the 90TSi and 118TSi can be updated via firmware reflashes. I think the 90Tsi goes to about 110kw and 220Nm and the 118tsi goes up to about 150kw/290Nm.

The Focus diesel uses a similar auto gearbox now.

Wraith: I had a sit in the MPS3 and SP25. I tend to agree with the others that the interior is very "busy". The auto SP25 had way too many buttons and paddles in the steering wheel.

[Calibrated]

i can almost gaurantee, that after you drive a DSG golf, you wont even consider anything else.

[Vectracious]

The DSG in the 1.4L Golfs is the new dry clutch version. Less maintenance required than the older wet clutch versions in the GTI and TDI versions.

Does that mean they need to replace the clutch packs in them now? I heard with the wet clutch design you only change the oil and not the clutches themselves...:confused:

[JohnBu]

re: DSG

It's better than any automatic with a traditional torque converter or CVT out there.

infinitely better than a 4 speed auto.

very smooth with superfast shifting..

gulp, yep DSG service ain't that cheap. i think it's 60,000km or 4 years. To replace the DSG is very expensive, however they are reliable, but of course you hear the typical story on the internet out of the 100,000 that haven't had any trouble.

[imay]

Yep, the DSG is a VERY nice gearbox. Haven't had the chance to properly test the Golf with one, but some time back treated myself to a test drive of an Audi A3 cab with DSG - WOW! Very nice indeed. Argued the point with the salesperson about why would I spend an extra $10-15K on an Audi when a Golf/Eos is basically the same package -- end of discussion, and haven't heard from him since.

For a daily drive, I prefer to adopt the Jeremy Clarkson attitude about tooooo many gears though. Why is 4 not enough? My wife drives in peak times stop-start traffic for 40+ minutes to and 40+ minutes from - why would she NEED a 7 speed tranny? And let's keep in mind they aren't a cheap addition to the base price either! Add a couple of other desirable toys and the Golf very quickly becomes overpriced for what it is.

[Apex]

re: DSG

It's better than any automatic with a traditional torque converter or CVT out there.

infinitely better than a 4 speed auto.

very smooth with superfast shifting..

gulp, yep DSG service ain't that cheap. i think it's 60,000km or 4 years. To replace the DSG is very expensive, however they are reliable, but of course you hear the typical story on the internet out of the 100,000 that haven't had any trouble.


Yep, I haven’t heard of any issues locally and they are getting on a bit now so I thought we may have.

Internet horror stories are annoying, if I hear someone comment on the Nissan GTR again I will loose it.

[Greg K]

ones id be looking at (in this order)
1.0 Golf VI
2.0 SP25
3.0 Corolla
4.0 i30
5.0 Lancer Sportsback
6.0 Impreza RS
7.0 civic

my old man has an 05 impreza RS (2.5ltr auto) and to be honest, its a huge slug of a car. Add to that that its not that versatile (back seats dont fold down), its a car thats reliable, cheap to run, but not the cream of the crop. He drove the SP25 recently and much preferred the drive of the Mazda. The Golf, to me would be the most enticing auto to drive out of the lot.

As for the Mazda, with anything new that pushes the envelope of opinions and personal perference, it will take time to get used to it. I personally admire Mazda for being funky with their design and depending on colour choice, you can mask up certain areas that might not be so appealing.

The Corolla (read 'boring') is the safest option. Not my cup of tea, but theres a reason why its the best selling car.

i30 has won many motoring awards, and should be discounted as an option IMO

[rjastra]

For a daily drive, I prefer to adopt the Jeremy Clarkson attitude about tooooo many gears though. Why is 4 not enough? My wife drives in peak times stop-start traffic for 40+ minutes to and 40+ minutes from - why would she NEED a 7 speed tranny? And let's keep in mind they aren't a cheap addition to the base price either! Add a couple of other desirable toys and the Golf very quickly becomes overpriced for what it is.

JC was talking about a car with a 5L V8 (ie the IS-F). More gears are good if the engine in question is small (<2.5l) or has a limited rev range (TDI)
Anyone who thinks a 2L normally aspirated engine lugging over 1300kg will suffice with a 4 speed auto needs to reassess reality :)

And if I am not mistaken the 7 speed DSG is a $2500 option on the Golf. The 4 speed ( 1 LESS than the manual) is a $2000 option. You don't have to order a Golf with any of the options if you dont want to. At least VW offer the options. For instance, optional Dynaudio system for the Golf is exxy but apparently by far the best in class.

The $3000 leather/sunroof/xenon option on the Impreza is very good value.

[Wraith]

The DSG in the 1.4L Golfs is the new dry clutch version. Less maintenance required than the older wet clutch versions in the GTI and TDI versions.
I think the new DSG has an improved hill holder function as the DSG has a little lag between applying throttle from standstill and engaging the clutch (which makes sense).

A dealer accessory is flappy paddles for the DSG. Could make it more fun to drive for you.
Also, both the 90TSi and 118TSi can be updated via firmware reflashes. I think the 90Tsi goes to about 110kw and 220Nm and the 118tsi goes up to about 150kw/290Nm.

The Focus diesel uses a similar auto gearbox now.

Wraith: I had a sit in the MPS3 and SP25. I tend to agree with the others that the interior is very "busy". The auto SP25 had way too many buttons and paddles in the steering wheel.

New Golf MK6 1.4 TSI is up there on my list too, still investigating it ATM so no final conclusion yet :)

Interesting regarding the Mazdas rj as most people think the same, but for me I like all the extra kit/bells and whisltes you can possibly get in a vehicle, so the loads of instrumentation and buttons in the new Mazda 3 and others like Mazda 6 etc. suit me just fine...:)

The only 2 points that work against the MPS3 for me are the manual trans and real World efficiency...as for the manual trans it works a treat, but I'd prefer an auto/DSG type trans for a DD vehicle, but having said that I would still get a manual if all the other aspects which are important to me are there :)

[Wraith]

ones id be looking at (in this order)
1.0 Golf VI
2.0 SP25
3.0 Corolla
4.0 i30
5.0 Lancer Sportsback
6.0 Impreza RS
7.0 civic

my old man has an 05 impreza RS (2.5ltr auto) and to be honest, its a huge slug of a car. Add to that that its not that versatile (back seats dont fold down), its a car thats reliable, cheap to run, but not the cream of the crop. He drove the SP25 recently and much preferred the drive of the Mazda. The Golf, to me would be the most enticing auto to drive out of the lot.

As for the Mazda, with anything new that pushes the envelope of opinions and personal perference, it will take time to get used to it. I personally admire Mazda for being funky with their design and depending on colour choice, you can mask up certain areas that might not be so appealing.

The Corolla (read 'boring') is the safest option. Not my cup of tea, but theres a reason why its the best selling car.

i30 has won many motoring awards, and should be discounted as an option IMO

Nice list !

Have all of those on mine too :)

I'm very keen on the Civic (and also have looked at the City as a lower budget option) and am also going to give the i30 a good look over...I like what the Hyundai offers for the money, no one can take that away from it ;)

I'm also keeping an eye on what Ford are doing with the XR5T Focus, it's not on my list BUT if they are going to be giving them away again for $32,900-$33,200 drive away, that would be a hard bargain to resist :rollyeys1:

[mania]

The i30's are fantastic cars imo. The boot alone convinced me of that (worth seeing!).

[Wraith]

The $3000 leather/sunroof/xenon option on the Impreza is very good value.

Agreed !

When I was looking at the new Impreza MY09 WRX's earlier this year AFAIK it was 4 or $4,500 extra for all of the above + sat nav. as well, with a bigger in dash screen which featured digital tacho display features - very cool :)

[Wraith]

The i30's are fantastic cars imo. The boot alone convinced me of that (worth seeing!).

From what I've seen so far they are very good looking and very nicely finished off, certainly a not bad effort at a quality product IMO !

If people can get over the brand, they'll easily appreciate it for sure as it makes for a very good 'normal' type DD vehicle...

[JohnBu]

For a daily drive, I prefer to adopt the Jeremy Clarkson attitude about tooooo many gears though. Why is 4 not enough? My wife drives in peak times stop-start traffic for 40+ minutes to and 40+ minutes from - why would she NEED a 7 speed tranny?

4 is not enough in 2009.

no one needs 7 speed transmission, just like no one needs power windows. however, the more ratios means better performance, smoother shifts & lower fuel usage.

4sp compared to the 7sp DSG
- worst performance
- more noticeable shifts
- higher fuel usage

7sp DSG wins.

In peak hr traffic... does Adelaide have peak hr traffic??? haha

In peak hr traffic, you'll still notice a difference, accelerating to 50kmh, the 4speed auto may be changing into 3, the 7sp will be changing into 4th whilst being smoother and more fuel efficient as the increased ratios means its in the correct powerband more of the time.

As you said it yourself, the DSG is very good.

without being subjective, compared to its rivals my conclusion on the Impreza- slower, less fuel efficient, worst handling (less agile). Subjectively, it doesn't win interior or exterior looks either.

[phtm]

Don''t know what the new imprezza is like. I have a 2001 hatch. I love the boxer engine and the build quality is good, ( something you don't get on cheaper cars). The AWD is good but I have the manuel not an auto. I have done 225.000 km on original clutch.

[mania]

4 is not enough in 2009.

no one needs 7 speed transmission, just like no one needs power windows. however, the more ratios means better performance, smoother shifts & lower fuel usage.

Those are all true, but doesn't mean more gears is always desirably. Definitely by the time you reach infinite (cvt) you've got far too many and the ride becomes unnerving. The extra couple of percent fuel economy over 5 gears doesn't make up for it.

As it is, on my manual, I find 4 gears to be sufficient. Which leaves me two I rarely use. 4th and 5th - what's the point? Acceleration in 6th is fine for accelerating from 60kmh+ for casual driving. For spirited acceleration you need a lower ratio - 2nd, or where over 100kmh is permitted, 3rd. I imagine 5th isn't useful unless you're aiming at breaking 200kmh... why on earth would you need 7 in Australia? I mean they're nice to have, but that's all really..

[gslrallysport]

the i30's are fantastic cars imo.
+1


4 is not enough in 2009.
+2

[JohnBu]

read it wrong

[USC]

people keep complaining about the Sat Nav on the Mazda 3...do you even realise that it is FREE????????????????? not a $3000 option like on many other brands.

[JohnBu]

As it is, on my manual, I find 4 gears to be sufficient. Which leaves me two I rarely use. 4th and 5th - what's the point? Acceleration in 6th is fine for accelerating from 60kmh+ for casual driving. For spirited acceleration you need a lower ratio - 2nd, or where over 100kmh is permitted, 3rd. I imagine 5th isn't useful unless you're aiming at breaking 200kmh... why on earth would you need 7 in Australia? I mean they're nice to have, but that's all really..

two words. Fuel Economy.

do you shift 1-2-3-6?

[mania]

two words. Fuel Economy.

you never use higher than 4th on the freeway?

I didn't say the only 4 gears I use are the first four, I said I only use 4 gears :p. Only is an exaggeration, I do use all of them of course, but four I use a lot more then others (1st 2nd 3rd and 6th).

EDIT: Thinking about it, I do use 4th quite a bit - mostly in 50 zones. It's hard to think as gear selection isn't a conscious thing. But I do know my 5th gear barely gets used at all.. if it didn't have an application for accelerating to top speed on autobahns, I wouldn't see the point behind it at all :p.

[JohnBu]

while I agree that 7sp on manual would be overkill... 7sp on DSG is fine, as shifts are lightning fast and automatic.

ok, you may not use 5th that much because you have 6th.

but if 5 or 6th was non-existent, that ratios would be more spaced out.. that means less performance in 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear...

[mania]

You're right - I'm surprised that's the way they always do it though, instead of for example making 1-2-3 ideal for our speed limits (with a bit of headroom for 160kmh 'spirited' drivers..) and then making the 4th or 5th gear in a five speed a high overdrive gear.. instead it seems required they evenly space them :s. Maybe too big a gap is also unnerving for drivers, I don't know.

Do the DSG's skip gears on upchanges? ie if you floor it to 70kmh, I imagine it'd get there in 2nd, does it then go straight to 6th or go 3rd, 4th, 5th before settling on 6th? I know they skip gears on downchanges, just curious about upchanges.

[JohnBu]

not too sure on the upshifts.

My DSG GTI doesn't tell me what gear it is in... after accelerating hard, you can't feel the DSG shift up, you can only tell by looking at the revs.

seriously, the DSG is that good and smooth, it makes traditional automatics redundant. I still prefer manual :D

FYI- the DSG on the GTI is 6sp

[mania]

I have only ever heard good things about DSGs, but I don't know if anything could sway me from driving manuals =/ I mean there's nothing about the many conventional automatics I've driven that's annoyed me, except they're more boring to drive :p.

I'm guessing the 7th gear was free for them to add, as the other gearbox probably has a reverse gear in its position.

So that I seem on-topic: I prefer the impreza's to the 3s. :)

[Wraith]

people keep complaining about the Sat Nav on the Mazda 3...do you even realise that it is FREE????????????????? not a $3000 option like on many other brands.

Yes, I'm well aware of that and no it ain't too small (4.1" screen) for me to read either...lots of blind or half blind peeps out there LOL :p

Also the way Mazda have positioned it well inside the dash means it'll hardly ever if ever be affected by glare, something others in the centre console and portable units can be vulnerable to...and it's perfectly located for viewing without taking much of your focus off the road, which again centre console mounted units are not good for...

[Vectracious]

Do the DSG's skip gears on upchanges? ie if you floor it to 70kmh, I imagine it'd get there in 2nd, does it then go straight to 6th or go 3rd, 4th, 5th before settling on 6th? I know they skip gears on downchanges, just curious about upchanges.

If left in drive, it goes through all the gears. I haven't tried doing that in manual mode... will try it tonight on my way home from work.

[Vectracious]

Yes, I'm well aware of that and no it ain't too small (4.1" screen) for me to read either...lots of blind or half blind peeps out there LOL :p

Also the way Mazda have positioned it well inside the dash means it'll hardly ever if ever be affected by glare, something others in the centre console and portable units can be vulnerable to...and it's perfectly located for viewing without taking much of your focus off the road, which again centre console mounted units are not good for...


I agree - I reckon the screen on it is good for something that comes standard anyway. I think I would prefer it to mine (which is in the centre stack) - as you need to look quite far down in the passat to read the map.

[Wraith]

You're right - I'm surprised that's the way they always do it though, instead of for example making 1-2-3 ideal for our speed limits (with a bit of headroom for 160kmh 'spirited' drivers..) and then making the 4th or 5th gear in a five speed a high overdrive gear.. instead it seems required they evenly space them :s. Maybe too big a gap is also unnerving for drivers, I don't know.

Do the DSG's skip gears on upchanges? ie if you floor it to 70kmh, I imagine it'd get there in 2nd, does it then go straight to 6th or go 3rd, 4th, 5th before settling on 6th? I know they skip gears on downchanges, just curious about upchanges.

DSG 'does not' skip changes on upshifts...it dosn't have to as it can swap cogs at the rate of 1/5th of a second between shifts !

It's operation is as Johns described, ie. seemless...and as Johns said, it makes 'almost' all standard autos seem ordinary and IMHO ie. speaking for myself, it also makes manual transmissions redundant and that's for both road and track !!!

Higher up in the order of DSG's (like the units on Audis) and other automated transmissions such as the BMW 7sp DCT and 6sp unit in the R35 have perfectly calibrated rev matching for downshifts = awesome...

Only lately Nissan have done something to keep the manual trans in the game by introducing rev matching down shifting on the trans in their 370Z...I predict it won't be long before the Euros copy it ;)

[Vectracious]

It's operation is as Johns described, ie. seemless...and as Johns said, it makes 'almost' all standard autos seem ordinary and IMHO ie. speaking for myself, it also makes manual transmissions redundant and that's for both road and track !!!

I have to admit, I dont think I could go back to a standard auto after owning a DSG :D

[JohnBu]

DSG hasn't made manual redundant for me.

Prob the only thing I prefer on my SRiT over the GTI is the stick... haha

I prefer the launch control on my SRiT to the GTI.. left and right feet and nerves of steel! launch control GTI is shit (laggy)

anyway, in future, say 10 years time, manual will slowly die in performance cars... as DSG will take over.

[Vectracious]

launch control GTI is shit (laggy)


does yours take about half a second to launch after you release the brake pedal?

[Wraith]

I have to admit, I dont think I could go back to a standard auto after owning a DSG :D

Very true that !!!

As you know I had 2 very extensive test drive sessions of the Audi TTS with rev matching downshift DSG trans and rocked up to the dealer 1st time in my 5sp manual vert and 2nd time in my 4sp auto Calibra...man let me tell you all, it was painful to have to get back into my cars and put up with a manual or standard auto after experiencing that slick DSG...

Hence why the 1.4 Twin charger Golf Mk6 (with 7sp DSG) is on my list for evaluation as next DD :)

[Wraith]

DSG hasn't made manual redundant for me.

Prob the only thing I prefer on my SRiT over the GTI is the stick... haha

I prefer the launch control on my SRiT to the GTI.. left and right feet and nerves of steel! launch control GTI is shit (laggy)

anyway, in future, say 10 years time, manual will slowly die in performance cars... as DSG will take over.

Fair enough John...

Also it won't be in 10 years time, it's already happening - look at the R35 which has automated manual trans only...

I'd say before 10 years are up traditional stick shifts will be a thing of the past in top end hi po vehicles and eventually gone altogether :)

[Wraith]

does yours take about half a second to launch after you release the brake pedal?

It's a safety protocol in the electronics, this is the case even with Audis Pete, but I do know there's a way to set it up so that there's no time gap, it's a topic thats been discussed on the Audi forums alot :)

There are software upgrades for the ecu of the DSG just like remaps for the engines ecu and even the AWD Haldex system (ie. for vehicles with AWD) and it's one area I'd go into if I ever got my hands on an Audi or AWD VW or even a Golf Gti with DSG :)

[mania]

it also makes manual transmissions redundant and that's for both road and track !!!Of course DSG's have made manuals redundant. And CVT gearboxes are better then DSG's in every technical aspect! Simpler, better fuel efficiency, better acceleration, fewer drivetrain losses, smoother driving, no gear changes! As soon as they are capable of handling 300hp+, they'll be no reason to buy a manual of DSG ever again... :rolleyes:

As a side note - DSG's apparently take half a second to shift if it's upshifting as fast as it can. However if it has time to prepare the gear selection before shifting, ie if you're accelerating between changes, the actual time without power is as low as 8ms. So if you accelerate to 70kmh in second gear and then let off, it'd take 1.5 seconds before it gets to 6th gear if it doesn't skip. (2nd->3rd = 8ms, 3rd->4th 500ms, 4th->5th 500ms, 5->6th 500ms). Not that it matters, just interesting is all..

[Wraith]

Of course DSG's have made manuals redundant. And CVT gearboxes are better then DSG's in every technical aspect! Simpler, better fuel efficiency, better acceleration, fewer drivetrain losses, smoother driving, no gear changes! As soon as they are capable of handling 300hp+, they'll be no reason to buy a manual of DSG ever again... :rolleyes:

As a side note - DSG's apparently take half a second to shift if it's upshifting as fast as it can. However if it has time to prepare the gear selection before shifting, ie if you're accelerating between changes, the actual time without power is as low as 8ms. So if you accelerate to 70kmh in second gear and then let off, it'd take 1.5 seconds before it gets to 6th gear if it doesn't skip. (2nd->3rd = 8ms, 3rd->4th 500ms, 4th->5th 500ms, 5->6th 500ms). Not that it matters, just interesting is all..

Not sure about all of the above, but shifting as fast as it can, the 6sp DSG can shift in 0.2secs. not 0.5secs. never heard of the 8 millisecond rate - but you could be right, I'll have to check and re-read all the literature on them...

In the DSG the next gear is always preselected and ready to go on both shafts, so whether it needs to shift down or up it'll do so with equal rapidity...

Also keep in mind that the 'state of tune' of the DSG trans is different depending on what vehicle it's fitted to. it's 'tweaked' on higher level vehicles like Audis etc. and as mentioned you can get software ugrades that enhance them further...

And whilst we're on this topic, you can now also get hi po clutch packs for them that make it possible for them to handle 700+nm of torque - you beauty :thumbs:

[JohnBu]

does yours take about half a second to launch after you release the brake pedal?

objectively, yes. subjectively, feels alot longer! haha

they say that DSG is about 0.2-0.3 sec faster than the manual version. well thats once it starts moving, not when you release the brakes. my superquick feet and manual stick will beat DSG.

I know you can get software to retune the DSG.. for $1k no thank you.

FYI, in the Astra I beat my GF driving the DSG GTI if I launch correctly.

[mania]

Not sure about all of the above, but shifting as fast as it can, the 6sp DSG can shift in 0.2secs. not 0.5secs. never heard of the 8 millisecond rate - but you could be right, I'll have to check and re-read all the literature on them...

In the DSG the next gear is always preselected and ready to go on both shafts, so whether it needs to shift down or up it'll do so with equal rapidity...

I got the figures from wikipedia ;) 8ms is the veyron state of tune. I'm not sure how much slower they artificially make golfs (all it has to do is engage a clutch! doesn't take long!). But in any case, when the gear is not preselected it takes a lot longer.

And the next gear is not always preselected. It only is where the gearbox has been able to correctly predict the change, and after the time taken to select the predicted gear. If it hasn't predicted it, or hasn't had time to preselect the gear, it takes as long as the old "easytronic" or automated manual gearboxes - considering 00's ferraris took > 200ms to change gears using those, 500ms is a far more likely figure then 200ms. They do use pretty clever hueristics and (I believe) fuzzy learning to minimise how often this happens though..

I really want to try driving one though >.<. Should pop in to a VW dealership I guess..

[rjastra]

Under "normal", progressive acceleration and deceleration, the DSG shifts in a "sequential" mode, i.e. under acceleration: 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6, and the same sequence reversed for deceleration. However, if the car is being driven at sedate speeds, with a light throttle opening, and the accelerator pedal is then pressed fully to the floor, this activates the "kick-down" function. During kick-down, the DSG can skip gears, going from 6th gear straight down to 2nd gear (where conditions permit).

I assume then that in the vast majority of cases the DSG does have the "next" gear preselected and ready to go. 1,3,5 are on one clutch pack... 2,4,6 on the other. The only time you would get noticeable delay would be a 6->2 down change.

[mania]

Or in the example given ;). Accelerate to 70kmh and then let off, if it has to go 2->3->4->5->6 to select 6th gear, it only has time to preselect 3rd (whilst accelerating to 70kmh) - the rest will go at semi-automatic manual transmission speed of 500ms each. Again, doesn't matter at all, just interesting..

[rjastra]

Or in the example given ;). Accelerate to 70kmh and then let off, if it has to go 2->3->4->5->6 to select 6th gear, it only has time to preselect 3rd (whilst accelerating to 70kmh) - the rest will go at semi-automatic manual transmission speed of 500ms each. Again, doesn't matter at all, just interesting..

Are you sure? The article says it will change into top in a GTI at around 60km/h
Once you let off the throttle who cares how long to shift to 6th? But if course 6th is on the opposite clucth pack to 3rd so shift time shouldn't be long.

As you know it can shift directly from 6-> 2. Meaning it can jump gears up/down the box if required

[Vectracious]

It's a safety protocol in the electronics, this is the case even with Audis Pete, but I do know there's a way to set it up so that there's no time gap, it's a topic thats been discussed on the Audi forums alot :)

There are software upgrades for the ecu of the DSG just like remaps for the engines ecu and even the AWD Haldex system (ie. for vehicles with AWD) and it's one area I'd go into if I ever got my hands on an Audi or AWD VW or even a Golf Gti with DSG :)


yeah theres a lot of mods out there, the big one getting a VAGCOM to change parameters in the ECU for basically everything in the car.

The haldex controllers also sound interesting, just expensive..

[Wraith]

I got the figures from wikipedia ;) 8ms is the veyron state of tune. I'm not sure how much slower they artificially make golfs (all it has to do is engage a clutch! doesn't take long!). But in any case, when the gear is not preselected it takes a lot longer.

And the next gear is not always preselected. It only is where the gearbox has been able to correctly predict the change, and after the time taken to select the predicted gear. If it hasn't predicted it, or hasn't had time to preselect the gear, it takes as long as the old "easytronic" or automated manual gearboxes - considering 00's ferraris took > 200ms to change gears using those, 500ms is a far more likely figure then 200ms. They do use pretty clever hueristics and (I believe) fuzzy learning to minimise how often this happens though..

I really want to try driving one though >.<. Should pop in to a VW dealership I guess..

Thanks for the info mania...

Definitely get out and drive one if you can and if possible try an Audi as I believe the state of DSG tune is better than on the VW's :)

DSG + Haldex 4 AWD as on alot of the latest Audis is IMHO the best driveline set up you can have on a vehicle...the Haldex gives the best of both Worlds as it's not a full time AWD system and can be custom tuned to individual requirements for front/rear wheel power bias if you wanted to do so...:)

[Wraith]

Are you sure? The article says it will change into top in a GTI at around 60km/h
Once you let off the throttle who cares how long to shift to 6th? But if course 6th is on the opposite clucth pack to 3rd so shift time shouldn't be long.

As you know it can shift directly from 6-> 2. Meaning it can jump gears up/down the box if required

The above sounds right...certainly when driving one...

I've got grab a hold of my technical DSG manual and have a read when I get the chance :)

[mania]

Do the DSG's skip gears on upchanges? ie if you floor it to 70kmh, I imagine it'd get there in 2nd, does it then go straight to 6th or go 3rd, 4th, 5th before settling on 6th? I know they skip gears on downchanges, just curious about upchanges.

It was my original question ;). And it really doesn't matter, just curious if it has to make 4 gear changes after reaching 70kmh, or if it can go straight to 6th. Wikipedia couldn't tell me :p

[Vectracious]

It was my original question ;). And it really doesn't matter, just curious if it has to make 4 gear changes after reaching 70kmh, or if it can go straight to 6th. Wikipedia couldn't tell me :p

no, it has to go through all the gears to get into top. I tried it out in manual mode last night - got to about 70 in 2nd, then shifted to 6th straight away - it went through 3 4 5.

[sooty]

So....about that subaru impreza... :p

[rjastra]

Nissan Dualis? Dont girls love SUV looking cars?

http://images.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2009/08/06/Nissan_Qashqai_L_m.jpg

[Wraith]

no, it has to go through all the gears to get into top. I tried it out in manual mode last night - got to about 70 in 2nd, then shifted to 6th straight away - it went through 3 4 5.

Thought so ;)

[Wraith]

So....about that subaru impreza... :p

Yes, BIG appologies to our good friend Ian :)

[mania]

no, it has to go through all the gears to get into top. I tried it out in manual mode last night - got to about 70 in 2nd, then shifted to 6th straight away - it went through 3 4 5.

Thanks, something I've always been curious to know.

[imay]

Yes, BIG appologies to our good friend Ian :)


Yeah, gone slightly off topic, but a great source of information and debate none-the-less.

[oneightoo]

i have had my imprezza r now since just before xmas, and i can say it's fantastic..

mine is an 06, so it was the new rs..

definitly get the new rs, as the standard na imprezza lacks grunt, but my r, well, thats quick enough for an na..

the ride is brilliant, drives smoothly, you dont get road noise.. the interior is plain, but really, does that matter too much? everything you need is on the dash or wheel..

i looked for a new car for almost 12 months before settling on the suby.. it was between the suby and the mazda sp23..

chose the suby for the awd, and mines a hatch, so it was boot space as well, need it for band equipment..

so yeah, go a scooby doo

[rjastra]

i have had my imprezza r now since just before xmas, and i can say it's fantastic..

mine is an 06, so it was the new rs..

definitly get the new rs, as the standard na imprezza lacks grunt, but my r, well, thats quick enough for an na..



Ummm... the NEW Impreza R and RX and RS all have the same 2L engine and power output.

[Wraith]

^^^ Maybe the 2006 model 182 has - has the 2.5ltr boxer ??

[Vectracious]

^^^ Maybe the 2006 model 182 has - has the 2.5ltr boxer ??

no - 2006 (pigface) has the 2.0. They last had the the N/A 2.5 in the 05 model.

[Greg K]

no - 2006 (pigface) has the 2.0. They last had the the N/A 2.5 in the 05 model.

either way, the 2.0ltr or the 2.5ltr mated to an auto is no performance monster...

[oneightoo]

no - 2006 (pigface) has the 2.0. They last had the the N/A 2.5 in the 05 model.

thats right, and in the 06 range the 2.0i and 2.0r have different power outputs.

[gslrallysport]

With regards to Subaru motors, they're designed for one thing... a turbo charger. They're VERY over bored, with massive valves, and aren't particularly known for their ability to rev (unlike a Porsche boxer), with their primary aim centered around ramming as much forced fed air into the chamber as quickly as possibly.

So N/A Subaru Boxers are on paper, pretty piss poor. Having said that, they actually perform alot better than their specs say (I'm still not saying they perform well), but you really need to take N/A Subaru's for a drive to gauge them properly, rather than pick them apart on paper.

[GreyRex]

With regards to Subaru motors, they're designed for one thing... a turbo charger. They're VERY over bored, with massive valves, and aren't particularly known for their ability to rev (unlike a Porsche boxer), with their primary aim centered around ramming as much forced fed air into the chamber as quickly as possibly.

So N/A Subaru Boxers are on paper, pretty piss poor. Having said that, they actually perform alot better than their specs say (I'm still not saying they perform well), but you really need to take N/A Subaru's for a drive to gauge them properly, rather than pick them apart on paper.

Would you say that about the 3.0L boxer in the Subarus?

[gslrallysport]

mmm... last 3.0L I drove was an 03 H6 Outback about 5 years ago, it didn't struggle, but they've probably come along way since then. The fundamentals don't change though, they're still a very over bored (bore much larger than stroke), so they'll still be poorer on paper than the real world... again it's a test drive and see.

[imay]

I can assure everyone that there is no difference in power output in any of the current model R, RX or RS Impreza - They are all rated at 110 kw/196 nm - pretty similar to my Astra 2.2 convertible, actually.

But, I really think everyone is perhaps missing the point here. I am trying to get feedback on a vehicle I know very little about but one that my wife has chosen (probably more for looks, comfortable seating, ease of operation, etc.). The last thing she would be interested in is how quickly it goes from 0-100 -- as long as it takes no longer than her outgoing Astra TS 1.8 automatic and costs her no more to do it!
I appreciate the comments and comparisons to the VW Golf, but for what she desires in a car the Golf is overpriced, expensive to run (98RON preferable) and maintain, for what it is - a daily driver with the occasional weekend country jaunt.
For these reasons (cosmetic mainly, most likely) the Cruze, i30, Mazda3, Focus, Golf, Civic . . . they've all been considered, looked out, sat in, and been marked off her shopping list for one reason or another. She seems hell-bent (IF it is going to happen) on the Impreza BECAUSE SHE LIKES IT!

So, is there any reason OTHER than 0-100 based inadequacies that I need to know about before she makes up her mind totally?

My biggest objection is she wants a silver one - to replace her silver Astra, and wants the RS because "it's got better seats and looks better."

[JohnBu]

seems like your decision has already been made.

dynamically even with AWD, the subi doesn't handle as well.

Boxer/AWD will cost more to service than mazda/toyota etc, but less than the Golf.

4 speed auto below standard.

Mazda 3 & Golf keep winning comparisons, impreza comes near the bottom.

but as I said seems the decision has already been made.

what is the drive away price for one?

[gman]

Having owned 3 Subaru's I can say they are great cars..

The NA versions (owned one, Liberty Sedan) are a little down on power and use a little more fuel than comparable vehicles from other manufacturers for the same size engine. But the boxer is smooth and has lots of torque.

That said, the two STi's and one Liberty I have owned never missed a beat. And the STi's copped an absolute beating!!!

I'll stand by my earlier comments..I've never had an issue with any of the Subaru's I've owned from a livability, ease of use, reliability view point....

[lithium]

one very very minor point, subaru engines have a special requirement on top of the normal oil/filter changes where every 12k they recommend running subaru upper engine cleaner through the engine, as the boxer design tends to gunk up the manifold/valves. the can is $15 and its easy to do yourself, but something to be aware of if you are getting it serviced by a non-subaru mechanic

apart from that, my brothers forester has run past 100k recently without a single problem :) there's enough power to make it a pleasant daily driver, especially if your wife is not a car enthusiast (it doesn't sound like she is)

edit: just to add +1 to everyone who has said you can expect slightly higher fuel consumption than an equivalently powered FWD car due to the AWD system. my brothers manual forester runs somewhere at 9-10L/100km

[Wraith]

I can assure everyone that there is no difference in power output in any of the current model R, RX or RS Impreza - They are all rated at 110 kw/196 nm - pretty similar to my Astra 2.2 convertible, actually.

But, I really think everyone is perhaps missing the point here. I am trying to get feedback on a vehicle I know very little about but one that my wife has chosen (probably more for looks, comfortable seating, ease of operation, etc.). The last thing she would be interested in is how quickly it goes from 0-100 -- as long as it takes no longer than her outgoing Astra TS 1.8 automatic and costs her no more to do it!
I appreciate the comments and comparisons to the VW Golf, but for what she desires in a car the Golf is overpriced, expensive to run (98RON preferable) and maintain, for what it is - a daily driver with the occasional weekend country jaunt.
For these reasons (cosmetic mainly, most likely) the Cruze, i30, Mazda3, Focus, Golf, Civic . . . they've all been considered, looked out, sat in, and been marked off her shopping list for one reason or another. She seems hell-bent (IF it is going to happen) on the Impreza BECAUSE SHE LIKES IT!

So, is there any reason OTHER than 0-100 based inadequacies that I need to know about before she makes up her mind totally?

My biggest objection is she wants a silver one - to replace her silver Astra, and wants the RS because "it's got better seats and looks better."

I'll have to totally agree with John's comments above Ian...car forums are always a 'tricky' place to ask opinions on new car purchase advice LOL.

Seems like Val has chosen her next car regardless of any further investigations or opinions or suggestions ! :smile2:

Just go with the Sube of her choice, in the end I'm sure whatever differences there would've been in running costs, service costs, reliability etc. between this Impreza and others on the list (at least the other Japanese types) it really won't be too big a thing to worry about...that's how we all choose cars in the end, whichever appeals the most for whatever reasons and is also the one we can afford or willing to pay for...

Best of luck with it...can't see you going wrong at all with a new Impreza :)

[gslrallysport]

I think the big point to remember is that it's hard to buy a BAD car these days. Any of the cars mentioned in this thread, will do the job 99% as well as any other. Really it comes down to personal preference, and any car on the showroom today is far better than any car in that class 2 years ago.. Go with your heart, it's what will be best for you.

[Wraith]

I think the big point to remember is that it's hard to buy a BAD car these days. Any of the cars mentioned in this thread, will do the job 99% as well as any other. Really it comes down to personal preference, and any car on the showroom today is far better than any car in that class 2 years ago.. Go with your heart, it's what will be best for you.

Asolutely totally agree with the above as well ! :)

[rjastra]

She seems hell-bent (IF it is going to happen) on the Impreza BECAUSE SHE LIKES IT!


Women never want an valid answer... just agreement ;)
Anyway, found this on the NRMA site. Running costs. Subarus are expensive to run it seems.


Fuel Type
& Price Average Weekly Fuel Bill Average Weekly Running Costs Average Total WOL* cents/km Average Total WOL* Cost/week

SUBARU IMPREZA
RS (AWD) MY08 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 4 SP AUTOMATIC ULP
$44.68 $96.74 68.01 $196.17 Find
MAZDA MAZDA3
MAXX SPORT BK MY08 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 4 SP AUTO ACTIVEMATIC ULP
$42.65 $94.00 63.11 $182.06 Find
MITSUBISHI LANCER
ES CJ 4D SEDAN 2 L CVT AUTO 6 SP SEQUENTIAL ULP
$41.63 $88.25 58.21 $167.93 Find
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF
2.0 FSI PACIFIC 1K MY08 UPGRAD 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 6 SP AUTOMATIC TIPTRONIC SPULP
$51.70 $94.89 69.42 $200.25 Find
HONDA CIVIC
VTi MY08 4D SEDAN 1.8 L 5 SP AUTOMATIC ULP
$36.56 $87.64 58.11 $167.63 Find

[Vectracious]

either way, the 2.0ltr or the 2.5ltr mated to an auto is no performance monster...

nor were they marketed to be one - however the extra torque in the 2.5L motor made it easier to live with - just like when they put the 2.5T in the 06 WRX - the extra low down torque shut up a lot of critics of the 2.0L's lag.

[Vectracious]

I. She seems hell-bent (IF it is going to happen) on the Impreza BECAUSE SHE LIKES IT!

So, is there any reason OTHER than 0-100 based inadequacies that I need to know about before she makes up her mind totally?"


No, its a good car, if she likes it, buy it.

[Greg K]

No, its a good car, if she likes it, buy it.

exactly right! and if its a car for her, then its best to go with something that she likes...

[Vectracious]

also, if she ends up not liking it after 6 months, she's got no-one to blame but herself!!!!

I had to pull that card the other day when I heard the first whinge about the CR-V ;)

[Wraith]

Women never want an valid answer... just agreement ;)
Anyway, found this on the NRMA site. Running costs. Subarus are expensive to run it seems.


Fuel Type
& Price Average Weekly Fuel Bill Average Weekly Running Costs Average Total WOL* cents/km Average Total WOL* Cost/week

SUBARU IMPREZA
RS (AWD) MY08 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 4 SP AUTOMATIC ULP
$44.68 $96.74 68.01 $196.17 Find
MAZDA MAZDA3
MAXX SPORT BK MY08 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 4 SP AUTO ACTIVEMATIC ULP
$42.65 $94.00 63.11 $182.06 Find
MITSUBISHI LANCER
ES CJ 4D SEDAN 2 L CVT AUTO 6 SP SEQUENTIAL ULP
$41.63 $88.25 58.21 $167.93 Find
VOLKSWAGEN GOLF
2.0 FSI PACIFIC 1K MY08 UPGRAD 5D HATCHBACK 2 L 6 SP AUTOMATIC TIPTRONIC SPULP
$51.70 $94.89 69.42 $200.25 Find
HONDA CIVIC
VTi MY08 4D SEDAN 1.8 L 5 SP AUTOMATIC ULP
$36.56 $87.64 58.11 $167.63 Find

Very interesting figures there rj, I'm sure Ian will find it relevant :)

Look at the Golf...expensive to buy and to run it seems and also drops value more than some of those others as well from my research into that side of things which I listed in the MPS3 thread...

Honda Civic 4 door sedan (which is on my list too) looking very good there :)

[rjastra]

Very interesting figures there rj, I'm sure Ian will find it relevant :)

Look at the Golf...expensive to buy and to run it seems and also drops value more than some of those others as well from my research into that side of things which I listed in the MPS3 thread...

Honda Civic 4 door sedan (which is on my list too) looking very good there :)

I have never said Golfs (or euros in general - Astra included) are cheap to run. Though the Golf figures are for the old 2L FSI engine not the 20% more economical 1.4TSI. Euros usually are more exxy to buy and run. Both affect $/wk running costs (borrow more = more $$$ per week to pay).

[USC]

Would you say that about the 3.0L boxer in the Subarus?

and they are H6 as well!!:D

[Wraith]

I have never said Golfs (or euros in general - Astra included) are cheap to run. Though the Golf figures are for the old 2L FSI engine not the 20% more economical 1.4TSI. Euros usually are more exxy to buy and run. Both affect $/wk running costs (borrow more = more $$$ per week to pay).

Always admired that little 1.4 twin charger since it appeared on the Golf Mk5 GT...

I'm going to look at and check out up close a new Golf Mk6 comfortline with the 1.4 twincharger, hopefully they look better in real life than in pics...

Mechanically speaking they sound like a very good choice DD with 7sp automated manual, good performance and very good efficiency, ask price in the low-mid 30k's drive away without optioning up sounds ok too, ie. if you leave it that way, can see it hitting well over 40k optioned and dressed up...

[Wraith]

and they are H6 as well!!:D

Don't think you can have a H configuration with 6 cylinders USC...either 4,8,12,16 and so on, unless it's a split or uneven arrangement like VW's V5...but don't think a H like that has ever been made ??

Only H configuration engine I know of is a huge H16 of around 2000cu.in. displacement used in a WWII fighter plane the Typhoon, I think H16's have been used somewhere along the way in racing car applications too :)

[JR]

Don't think you can have a H configuration with 6 cylinders USC...either 4,8,12,16 and so on, unless it's a split or uneven arrangement like VW's V5...but don't think a H like that has ever been made ??

Only H configuration engine I know of is a huge H16 of around 2000cu.in. displacement used in a WWII fighter plane the Typhoon, I think H16's have been used somewhere along the way in racing car applications too :)


USC is right, the suby does have a "H6".

the H6 looks like a V6 that's opened up 180 degrees and no longer in a V configuration.
the H configuration makes it "Horizontally" opposed.
or in other words - a "flat-6".
also known as a "boxer engine".

apparently the H6 configuration produces more torque, but less horsepower than a V6 configuration.

[GreyRex]

Don't think you can have a H configuration with 6 cylinders USC...either 4,8,12,16 and so on, unless it's a split or uneven arrangement like VW's V5...but don't think a H like that has ever been made ??

Only H configuration engine I know of is a huge H16 of around 2000cu.in. displacement used in a WWII fighter plane the Typhoon, I think H16's have been used somewhere along the way in racing car applications too :)

He was referring to the H6 being Subaru's marketing speak for 'High Output' 6 cylinder

[gman]

He was referring to the H6 being Subaru's marketing speak for 'High Output' 6 cylinder

Exactly...H6 is just Subaru's boxer 6 with a little more ommph...

[mania]

apparently the H6 configuration produces more torque, but less horsepower than a V6 configuration.

That doesn't make sense, torque is just horsepower per revolution... so you cannot have more of one without more of the other :confused:.

Unless you mean they "tend to lose power at the top end unlike a V6", but there's no reason why the configuration of the pistons should change the engine characteristics. At least AFAIK? =/

[gman]

That doesn't make sense, torque is just horsepower per revolution... so you cannot have more of one without more of the other :confused:.

Unless you mean they "tend to lose power at the top end unlike a V6", but there's no reason why the configuration of the pistons should change the engine characteristics. At least AFAIK? =/

Configuration (horizontally opposed vs. inline etc) can change the power "delivery" of an engine or its characteristics, so what you end up with is "more or less" torque earlier or later in the RPM band. What some say as more or less torque "under the curve".

Boxer engines (proper horizontally opposed engines) have corresponding pistons reaching top dead centre (TDC) simultaneously. Boxers are one of only 3 engine types that have a natural dynamic balance (Inline 6 and V12 being the others). They generally seem to make more torque low down in the RPM range (have more torque "under the curve") and due to their inherent balance (negating the requirement for balance shafts etc) seem to waste less energy.

Non turbo Subaru's seem to suffer from a lack of low RPM torque however and there may be many reasons for it.

IMHO I think its a factor of poor flow/low air speed at low RPM's (which the variable valve timing, tumblers etc have sort of helped), heat soak, oversquare design (large bore /small stroke) which is a function of packaging constraints etc....

You're right about power vs. torque, as power is a function of torque and RPM with the magic cross over at 5250rpm because torque and power are inescapably linked. The equation is HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5250.

[mania]

5250 being conversion factor for HP and pound feet, if you're using a different combination (kW and Nm for example) it'll be different ;).

I'm still not sure about different engine layouts giving more or less power though, I've always assumed they've been selected purely for packaging, marketing, noise and balance purposes. Mostly because calculators which estimate horsepower etc only ask which rpm, cams, displacement, boost etc - yet do not care about different engine layouts. I hadn't considered parasitic losses would be lower on Boxers though - you're right of course. No need for balance shafts would help, adding torque uniformly across the range. Maybe there is also more to it, who knows. -shrugs- :p

[gman]

5250 being conversion factor for HP and pound feet, if you're using a different combination (kW and Nm for example) it'll be different ;).

True...Its the non-metric method.. :D And its actually 5252.3333rpm for HP/Lb-Ft

Metric (I think) is: Power (kW) = {Torque (Nm) x (2 x PI) x rotational speed (rpm)} / 60000

or KW = NM x RPM / 9546.5

I think that why they usually look at HP/Lb-Ft

[rjastra]

One point to remember is we are usually talking about 4 cylinder subies.

Compared to an inline 4 they have twice the number of cams etc which adds drivetrain friction. And the layout is not necessarily condusive to the optimal inlet/exhaust setup.

In reality, for a shopping trolley sedan or hatch they have no real benefits over an inline 4.

[mania]

Sounds about right to me.

[gman]

Compared to an inline 4 they have twice the number of cams etc which adds drivetrain friction. And the layout is not necessarily condusive to the optimal inlet/exhaust setup.

I think you mean "valvetrain".... ;)


In reality, for a shopping trolley sedan or hatch they have no real benefits over an inline 4.

How about:


lower centre of gravity;
increased stabiltiy;
increased safety in frontal collisions (as the engine can more easily submarine under the firewall due to its lower frontal profile);
possible to decrease frontal profile decreasing aerodynamic drag (Think SVX)...

[rjastra]

I think you mean "valvetrain".... ;)



How about:


lower centre of gravity;
increased stabiltiy;
increased safety in frontal collisions (as the engine can more easily submarine under the firewall due to its lower frontal profile);
possible to decrease frontal profile decreasing aerodynamic drag (Think SVX)...


None of which are apparent on an Subaru vehicle compared to their competitors. ;)

[gman]

None of which are apparent on an Subaru vehicle compared to their competitors. ;)

I'd give them two (2) of the top three (3)....


lower centre of gravity;
increased safety in frontal collisions (as the engine can more easily submarine under the firewall due to its lower frontal profile);

But I know what you mean...(I'm just being argumentative)... ;)

[mania]

Hard to tell, as all new cars (I4 and subarus inclusive) get the same safety rating..

[imay]

Just to keep this thread going on a slightly different tangent . . . I;ve been reading up about the Focus TDCI SIX speed auto. It's been getting pretty good reviews, so might have to drop in and have a drive and see if the little lady is at all interested in an oil burner.
A mate of mine has the Mondeo turbo diesel/auto (same motor and trans as the Focus by the looks of things) and he is more than happy with it.

[USC]

Just to keep this thread going on a slightly different tangent . . . I;ve been reading up about the Focus TDCI SIX speed auto. It's been getting pretty good reviews, so might have to drop in and have a drive and see if the little lady is at all interested in an oil burner.
A mate of mine has the Mondeo turbo diesel/auto (same motor and trans as the Focus by the looks of things) and he is more than happy with it.

Ford engine seems to be good...the mondeo xr5 sounds sweet...the car is heavy but still pulls alright...just feels lazy..not sure how the diesel goes though. The only thing is ford seem to be put cheaply together..a lot of parts of glued on or double sided taped...like the weather strip rubber around the doors are taped on:eek:..mine started lifting in the rain. Interior rattles a bit. Fog covers are taped on too and mine was coming apart during heavy rain!

[rjastra]

A mate of mine has the Mondeo turbo diesel/auto (same motor and trans as the Focus by the looks of things) and he is more than happy with it.

The Focus TDCI uses a DSG style box for an auto. The Mondeo TDCI uses a normal 6 speed slushbox.

[imay]

The Focus TDCI uses a DSG style box for an auto. The Mondeo TDCI uses a normal 6 speed slushbox.

. . . interesting. I'm hoping for a day off tomorrow, so better go check this out. Previous generations Ford build quality has always concerned me a little, however I like the way the new Falcons are put together (really no better/worse then Commodores imo), so maybe Ford (internationally) has lifted its build quality a little?

[Wraith]

USC is right, the suby does have a "H6".

the H6 looks like a V6 that's opened up 180 degrees and no longer in a V configuration.
the H configuration makes it "Horizontally" opposed.
or in other words - a "flat-6".
also known as a "boxer engine".

apparently the H6 configuration produces more torque, but less horsepower than a V6 configuration.

Err, not sure about the above JR...

Subaru might call it a H6 but that dosn't mean it is...

I know all about flat or boxer configurations - they ARE NOT a H though...

Look them up, ie. H configuration engines, they are made up of cylinders aranged in a horizontal H (looking at it front on, not from above) one above the other 2 on each side opposed to each other just like a flat or boxer configuration, but doubled up...

Subaru's just confused everyone with their maketing terminology :)

[Wraith]

. . . interesting. I'm hoping for a day off tomorrow, so better go check this out. Previous generations Ford build quality has always concerned me a little, however I like the way the new Falcons are put together (really no better/worse then Commodores imo), so maybe Ford (internationally) has lifted its build quality a little?

Definitely check out the Focus Ian, they are pretty well built, plain interiors but good/reasonable quality...

If you were searching 3-6 months ago, they had that special deal on the XR5T's for only $32,900 drive away....absolute bargain, no wonder they all went in a big hurry...

[USC]

. . . interesting. I'm hoping for a day off tomorrow, so better go check this out. Previous generations Ford build quality has always concerned me a little, however I like the way the new Falcons are put together (really no better/worse then Commodores imo), so maybe Ford (internationally) has lifted its build quality a little?

Falcons seem to be put together better than the Mondeo. Focus`s are in between falcons and mondeos...ive driven the previous model for a couple of days... it was the 2L - 4 speed auto...was a nice drive but I hate auto`s in general. Built quality looked ok but the dash wasnt aligned with the pillars inside:eek:. The good thing is it does not have fiddly parts like the mondeo.

Anyone knows if the new focus XR5 also has the capless fuel refill like on the mondeo? thats cool stuff!! haha. does it also get mondeo features like auto light (not a bad feature but not necessary), auto wiper (annoying), dual zone climate control, front and rear parking sensors (very annoying), BIG colour LCD screen between tacho and speedometer (very annoying at night)? I havent seen one in the flesh yet.

[imay]

Tried the Focus diesel auto today . . . . Val reckons the best part of the whole experience was the flat white coffee they made her while they spun a load of bull about how great the Focus is compared to the opposition (read Toyota Corolla)!

Nup, not for us, thanks! Very disappointed in the whole package. Sure it went pretty well when you planted the right foot, but the interior, and the whole fit and finish let it down.

Still looking.

[USC]

Tried the Focus diesel auto today . . . . Val reckons the best part of the whole experience was the flat white coffee they made her while they spun a load of bull about how great the Focus is compared to the opposition (read Toyota Corolla)!

Nup, not for us, thanks! Very disappointed in the whole package. Sure it went pretty well when you planted the right foot, but the interior, and the whole fit and finish let it down.

Still looking.

yep...as I mentioned....fit and finish of fords are quite poor. The engine seems ok (when new)...but whole package is definitely not better than Corolla or Impreza.

[Vectracious]

Haven't sat in a Mondeo or Focus, would have thought that the interior would have been OK - that LCD screen looks pretty cool... any way of dimming it USC or is it just bright all the time?

[poita]

Test drove a focus, got out of the dealership as fast as possible.

Was horrid

[USC]

Haven't sat in a Mondeo or Focus, would have thought that the interior would have been OK - that LCD screen looks pretty cool... any way of dimming it USC or is it just bright all the time?

yep, I dimmed it but colour schemes available are not so great (blue or brown / orange...YUK). It does not match anything inside as everything else is red / white. Also using the colour screen is a big distraction..I almost crashed a few times...lol..worst than using a mobile phone. In order to reset the tripmeter, I have to dig in down several levels to get to such a simple function!
Overall, its not a bad car, but they ve built it very cheaply (Major use of tape / glue, plastic to replace metal panels, paint has defects, silver trims outside not cleared and they chip like hell, interior silver door grabs dont look like they will last too long..etc) to include all those gadgets. The only things I like about this car so far are: push start (cool but not too functional as quite often Ford Converse does not detect that the key is inside!!), sweet sound of the In-line 5 Turbo (The gearbox is alright but the gear stick vibrates too much quite often..usually in 4th and 6th gear:confused:), stereo sound is excellent and Comfy heated seats.
The worst is Ford has no idea how to service this car properly! exact same story as with Holden!

sorry to change topic.

[imay]

Test drove a focus, got out of the dealership as fast as possible.


Yeah! Unfortunately we got stuck there for tooooo long. Val wanted a coffee and then took forever to drink it because it was so hot! But she insisted it was still the best part of the afternoon!
Interior plastics were just horrid. I'll never complain about the scratch-prone Astra interior again. And she reckons she couldn't live with the horrible dull flat and featureless centre console looking back at her all the time.

But at least I gave it a go. Such a shame, because the whole diesel/auto package sounds sooo good on paper.

[poita]

i felt like i was in a tupperware lunchbox!
seats where uncomfortable, dash was yuck, and the drivers seating position was weird.
im 6'4" so its a bit deal, the driver positioning
i honestly felt safer and had a better ride in my 1991 laser

[Wraith]

i felt like i was in a tupperware lunchbox!
seats where uncomfortable, dash was yuck, and the drivers seating position was weird.
im 6'4" so its a bit deal, the driver positioning
i honestly felt safer and had a better ride in my 1991 laser

What model Focus was it Poita ??

Have you tried the XR5T ??

I have and liked it o/a but yes the interior both in finish and design isn't the best, but I thought it was ok (ie. XR5T model) for the price of the vehicle, I especially liked the front Recaros, very comfortable, good looking and finished off in fabric rather than leather which IMHO is much better for a DD vehicle :)

Ian hopefully you find something suitable eventually :)

[imay]

Ian hopefully you find something suitable eventually :)

Thanks Ange. Could be today, could be in 6 months time. We are in no hurry. It's been a while since I have been seriously looking at new cars in this segment (always been looking at the fantasy side!), and quite frankly, I am a bit disappointed (as is Val) in the quality of vehicles available at the moment. Thought things would have improved (quality of fit/finish/gizmos, etc.) since the Astras were first purchased.
In the end, the Astra is a bloody well built car. And, as there is nothing wrong with Val's Astra, we may very well end up keeping it!

[Wraith]

Thanks Ange. Could be today, could be in 6 months time. We are in no hurry. It's been a while since I have been seriously looking at new cars in this segment (always been looking at the fantasy side!), and quite frankly, I am a bit disappointed (as is Val) in the quality of vehicles available at the moment. Thought things would have improved (quality of fit/finish/gizmos, etc.) since the Astras were first purchased.
In the end, the Astra is a bloody well built car. And, as there is nothing wrong with Val's Astra, we may very well end up keeping it!

Same here Ian, always 'fantasy shopping' myself :)

Also getting serious about a Cali replacement and new DD, hope you and Val do find something you like eventually :)

[GreyRex]

i felt like i was in a tupperware lunchbox!
seats where uncomfortable, dash was yuck, and the drivers seating position was weird.
im 6'4" so its a bit deal, the driver positioning
i honestly felt safer and had a better ride in my 1991 laser

I completely agree with you

I remember going and sitting in one in a showroom and the rear interior door handle was falling off. I was like... great!!

But 'apparently' the drive outweighs all of this :D

[rjastra]

Hasn't anyone noticed that cars seem to be getting more cheaply made at each iteration?

Go have a sit in a NEW Liberty for example. Then sit in the just outgoing model. There is a small, yet noticeable, feeling that money has been ripped out of the quality of the interior. It may all work perfectly well but it just isn't "nice" to look at or touch.

I have no doubt what so ever that the new model will be a better drive... but maybe they should have spent less money on a totally new rear suspension and a bit more on interior ambience and "perceived" quality.

[USC]

Hasn't anyone noticed that cars seem to be getting more cheaply made at each iteration?

Go have a sit in a NEW Liberty for example. Then sit in the just outgoing model. There is a small, yet noticeable, feeling that money has been ripped out of the quality of the interior. It may all work perfectly well but it just isn't "nice" to look at or touch.

I have no doubt what so ever that the new model will be a better drive... but maybe they should have spent less money on a totally new rear suspension and a bit more on interior ambience and "perceived" quality.

I completely agree!! The interior of cars are getting worse and worse...looks cool but wouldnt last more than a few weeks without being scratched. Same goes for exterior...head lamps, tail lights, and heaps of little chrome crap all look very cheaply made. There is also extensive use of plastic in engine bay etc...like some rocket cover etc.

[Wraith]

I completely agree!! The interior of cars are getting worse and worse...looks cool but wouldnt last more than a few weeks without being scratched. Same goes for exterior...head lamps, tail lights, and heaps of little chrome crap all look very cheaply made. There is also extensive use of plastic in engine bay etc...like some rocket cover etc.

That's across the board, as I've mentioned elsewhere...you'll find the same thing in expensive Euros as well, I can take pics and show you the interior of a very good friends SL/K with the silver and chrome finish has come off buttons etc. in the interior and it's only 2 years old and that's just the start of that cars problems...

Looks or design finish of alot of the new interiors is another subjective area...

That's why when I'm looking at a current new 'normal' car for use as a DD, I look at features/kit/performance/practicality etc. it has to offer for the money and the o/a reliability of the thing mechanically speaking and if the external and interior design appeals, the finish type and quality won't be that much different to other new vehicles, especially those in a similar price range...

[imay]

Update, guys (and thanks for the opinions).
She's made her decision and the Subaru Impreza RS won. Dealer just has to find one to her specs in the country and the Astra 5 door will be no more. So, hopefully within the next couple of weeks, I'll be able to get myself organised and have some bits'n'pieces loaded on the For Sale pages should anyone be interested.

[USC]

Nice - congrats! Wouldnt she be interested in the WRX?:D

[Wraith]

Update, guys (and thanks for the opinions).
She's made her decision and the Subaru Impreza RS won. Dealer just has to find one to her specs in the country and the Astra 5 door will be no more. So, hopefully within the next couple of weeks, I'll be able to get myself organised and have some bits'n'pieces loaded on the For Sale pages should anyone be interested.

Congrats Ian and Val of course :)

Great choice IMHO as I too fancy the new Impreza both hatch and sedan and the RS spec is the min. I'd want...

Happy motoring in the new joy in a couple weeks time :cornut: