Better Place-enabling the mass adoption of electric vehicles in Australia

[dieselhead]

"Hybrids are like mermaids. When you want a fish, you have a woman. When you want a woman, you have a fish."

Carlos Ghosn, Renault CEO

Very interesting stuff indeed. (http://australia.betterplace.com/our-plan/)And is coming soon to the East Coast of Oz.

Just watch this video that explains it all (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html). The only problem is, Adelaide is not in, not yet... :)

[mania]

Whilst I do think battery vehicles are the way to go, really won't do much good whilst hazelwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_Power_Station,_Victoria) is running..

[gmonkey]

i much preffer honda's use of hydrogen fuel cell, i mean atleast it runs on the same idea as fossil fuels, but recyclable material.. :p

[dieselhead]

The idea is that we'll gradually convert to renewable energy to charge batteries. Shai Agassi said in his presentation that you need a solar panel the size of a car somewhere in the dessert to power a car using solar energy. We've got sun, God knows we've got plenty of room for solar panels, why wouldn't we then?

[mania]

i much preffer honda's use of hydrogen fuel cell, i mean atleast it runs on the same idea as fossil fuels, but recyclable material.. :p

I don't see fuel cells becoming the norm. They may have a place aside cars, probably for buses, but as the norm? I hope not. They can be considered inefficient batteries that cannot be charged at the wall - rather need topping up at a station. That require huge amounts of hydrogen, an explosive gas, to be stored in a pressurized (and heavy) container somewhere in the car. That's been the major hold-up point about fuel cells for car companies everywhere. Not to mention that the fuel cell itself is still very expensive, and their efficiency appalling. The amount of energy that initially goes in to turning water in to hydrogen at the station is less then half the amount of energy that goes in to driving your wheels. By comparison, battery powered cars can be above 90% efficient, including all losses in transmitting the power, charging and discharging the batteries, and drivetrain losses. If fuel cells become the norm, it's probably because BP/Shell have had their hand in it, so that they can continue using their existing network of stations.

And I also dislike photovoltaic solar power :p, just for the sheer inefficiency. The solar panels cost a lot of energy to make, more then they give back in years of service, require a lot of resources, and they take up a lot of room. Give me wind, geothermal or nuclear anyday...

[gmonkey]

whatever happened to GMs car that ran on salt water??

[gmonkey]

they replaced the idea with the 'volt' which i think is kinda cool, but salt water would be sweet!!

[mania]

I don't believe that's possible... may have been jotted down on a concept car's spec page, but without any means of making it happen. Much like toyota's concept car which was claimed to be able to be run on pollution. :p

[AH08]

Wait until all the Prius owners have to replace their batteries every 5 year at about $6000. I read it some motor mag somewhere that it actually causes more pollution to make and get rid of the batteries than they save.

[sooty]

And I also dislike photovoltaic solar power :p, just for the sheer inefficiency. The solar panels cost a lot of energy to make, more then they give back in years of service, require a lot of resources, and they take up a lot of room.
For old solar panels, the above is all true, but with quantum dot based solar panels it's not, they're easily produced at little energy cost, not to mention substantially more efficient than current panels...
they'll become common soon enough:p

[HappySlapper82]

I don't see fuel cells becoming the norm. They may have a place aside cars, probably for buses, but as the norm? I hope not. They can be considered inefficient batteries that cannot be charged at the wall - rather need topping up at a station. That require huge amounts of hydrogen, an explosive gas, to be stored in a pressurized (and heavy) container somewhere in the car. That's been the major hold-up point about fuel cells for car companies everywhere. Not to mention that the fuel cell itself is still very expensive, and their efficiency appalling. The amount of energy that initially goes in to turning water in to hydrogen at the station is less then half the amount of energy that goes in to driving your wheels. By comparison, battery powered cars can be above 90% efficient, including all losses in transmitting the power, charging and discharging the batteries, and drivetrain losses. If fuel cells become the norm, it's probably because BP/Shell have had their hand in it, so that they can continue using their existing network of stations.

And I also dislike photovoltaic solar power :p, just for the sheer inefficiency. The solar panels cost a lot of energy to make, more then they give back in years of service, require a lot of resources, and they take up a lot of room. Give me wind, geothermal or nuclear anyday...

What a post! Looks like a small book on my phone :p

[mania]

For old solar panels, the above is all true, but with quantum dot based solar panels it's not, they're easily produced at little energy cost, not to mention substantially more efficient than current panels...
they'll become common soon enough:p

I hadn't heard of these, sound fairly exciting. :)

If they can get the 40% efficiency they're striving for, the "car-sized solar panel in the desert" plan sounds very plausible. Would be perhaps 15kWh per square meter per day if placed in the desert. Call a "car sized solar panel" 8 square meters and you have 120kWh. With losses, at the Volt's consumption rate, that'd take you 400kms. Quite a bit more then the average daily driving of 50kms or so :). Bring on quantum dot based solar panels?

[Wraith]

"Hybrids are like mermaids. When you want a fish, you have a woman. When you want a woman, you have a fish."

Carlos Ghosn, Renault CEO

Very interesting stuff indeed. (http://australia.betterplace.com/our-plan/)And is coming soon to the East Coast of Oz.

Just watch this video that explains it all (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/shai_agassi_on_electric_cars.html). The only problem is, Adelaide is not in, not yet... :)

LOL at that silly quote from Carlos Ghosn, but you've still gotta love the guy for giving the automotive World the R35 GT-R :)

As for advanced electric powered vehicles, I wish they were already here in a big way, it seems they're still in the distant future before becoming mainstream...

[sooty]

I hadn't heard of these, sound fairly exciting. :)

If they can get the 40% efficiency they're striving for, the "car-sized solar panel in the desert" plan sounds very plausible. Would be perhaps 15kWh per square meter per day if placed in the desert. Call a "car sized solar panel" 8 square meters and you have 120kWh. With losses, at the Volt's consumption rate, that'd take you 400kms. Quite a bit more then the average daily driving of 50kms or so :). Bring on quantum dot based solar panels?

Just a small article if you're interested about them
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/QDAUESC.php
...i should get to make and tune some next year :thumbs:
Do i think it'll be used in the automotive industry though? No...probably not, but at least it's an alternate electricity source, which reduces the demand on fossil fuels, buying us some time to find viable alternatives...

[glider]

Just a small article if you're interested about them
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/QDAUESC.php
...i should get to make and tune some next year :thumbs:
Do i think it'll be used in the automotive industry though? No...probably not, but at least it's an alternate electricity source, which reduces the demand on fossil fuels, buying us some time to find viable alternatives...

the power supply from downed ufos :p heh like they'll ever get that tech out of the hands of the us military

[mania]

Hmm, a bit of a shame, their figures are about half the 40% I got from wikipedia. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_satellite)'s an even better use of solar panels, allowing up to 1MW from a single panel by 2012, estimated. ;)

[sooty]

Hmm, a bit of a shame, their figures are about half the 40% I got from wikipedia.
Current figures? yeah, they only average about 25%....but the quantum dot based panels are capable of 65% efficiency.

[gmonkey]

this was the salt water powered car i was on about.. but due to GM being bankrupt company its canned pretty sure.. its the GM highwire

http://www.freshcreation.com/entry/gm_hywire_car_of_the_future/

[mania]

That's a volt where the generator's been replaced by a fuel cell I believe :). There's also a diesel option. Fuel cells don't run directly on sea water, but they can run on sea water that's had a lot of energy put in to it, cracking it in to hydrogen and oxygen. Top Gear does like to talk up fuel cells as if they run directly on water, with no additional energy required... which is of course impossible.

[dieselhead]

Guys, could you please keep the discussion to electric cars and more importantly, to this idea of charging & battery replacing network?

I would like to know, do you see yourselves buying an electric car in 2012? This idea of purchasing the car without batteries and therefore making the car affordable, cheaper than a conventional petrol/diesel one, is amazing! You would buy the car and sign for a plan, just like the one you've got for your iPhone. The more you drive, the more you pay. However, at an estimated starting price of 6 cents/km, or $6/100 km, you'd be better off being electric. As more and more cars get on the road, the infrastructure becomes cheaper to run and you could have the price going to 3 cents/km in a few years!

[mania]

No, I will not be buying one by 2012. Unless the government forces it by hiking tax's on petrol to ridiculous levels (which would be a waste, because other countries would continue to guzzle it). Mainly because my car loan wouldn't even have finished by then, and petrol still isn't costing that much per year.

Wouldn't mind having a daily one at some point though, maybe by 2020, if it all takes off. Would you be an early uptaker?

[dieselhead]

I'd uptake it tomorrow if I could get something like the Tesla for $50k, hell yeah! To be honest I don't care that much about being green, all I want is cheap torque. And clean air.

[mania]

I'd love a telsa....

Back to what I was saying about Hazelwood though, which I know was a bit pessmistic, but unless Australia finally decides to do something about our atrocious power supply all innovation is really for nothing. The Volt being driven here running purely on batteries would cause more pollution then a 2L Mazda 6, despite being slower... not offtopic - it really is one of the things that dampens my enthusiasm about (in our case) coal-powered cars :(. If that changes, and the price was right, I'd be quite a bit more eager to go electric..

[dieselhead]

Look, if we start using electric cars on a large scale we need more electric power, full stop. Do I need to remind you what happens on a hot summer day in Adelaide, or Sydney? The thing is, the bloody labor government should do something to encourage the green power generation market, so the extra power needed would come from solar, wind and so on rather than from new coal fired powerstations. Using more electricity to move around would lead to investment in green power, too. I mean, look how much we spend on oil every year! A small fraction of that would be more than enough to put in place the electric car grid in all of our major cities and on the main interstate roads. Shai Agassi, the CEO of Better Place, said that an estimated $200 million is needed to do cover the whole Israel. That's about 2 weeks of oil money.

[mania]

Interestingly, electric cars may solve our airconditioning problems.

I can't remember where I read it, probably wikipedia, but there's an ingenious system where you allow the power station to control your garage power point. If you ever want to charge your car, you can, at a premium rate. Otherwise the power station will only charge it when they're not at peak capacity, for cheap. After all, it's potential going to waste. But then if the power stations ever can't meet demand, ie on a hot summers day, they can discharge the millions of stored kWhs around the city to meet demand, paying you to do so. As an example, a fully charged Volt could run a house's airconditioner for 8 hours or so. And a volt has a comparably small battery compared to what future cars will have...

Sorry, I seem unable to stay on topic in this thread :o I'll leave it be now I think. :)

[gmonkey]

I wouldnt buy a electric car, hence why the topic changed cause i said id buy a fuel cell over one..

IMO i would never trust a battery powered car inwhich atm basically runs on the same tech as phone batteries Lithium Ploymers... cause ive seen how they work after a year, when you first get it it will last aslong as they say but after say a years worth of charging i bet you will be lucky to get 1/4 the distance.. and id hate to see what the pricing of new batteries for a car are.. and then how do you dispose of these batteries? acid isnt very eco friendly..

and as dieselhead said.. in the end electric vehicle uses a powerpoint which what is australias power supply? fossil fuels.. electric cars will just create more demand on electricity and the power that is generated by solar/wind is unsubstancle compared, enless lets say every household was supplemented with a microturbine generator and solar paneling..

The person who makes a fesis powered car that doesnt stink like burning crap will make millions and the car WILL have a power source that wont run out, cause lets face it we all make it.. we just got to make sure we make enough of it, so if you own a top fuel dragracer better take advantage of sizzlers all you can eat ;):p

but no IMO electric cars are not the future atleast no designs that are coming through atm

[mania]

The plan proposed by Better Place is that you just rent the use of a battery though. Being able to drive in to a device like a car wash, which'll change the battery supply in minutes, so that you can fill up and drive off much like you can now. They can manage all the recycling of the old batteries, etc. And they are largely recyclable.

The added bonus is you're not forced to use these battery changing shops as you can (slowly) fill up anywhere there's a power point.

[dieselhead]

Denmark has a very serious problem: they have got too much wind power generation! You can't simply turn off a wind turbine because the wind would damage it. At night, when use is very low, they send power to the Germans. Funny thing is, the Danes have to pay the Germans to take over their excess power! That's exactly why charging batteries over night, and lots of them, is so appealing in Denmark.

[gmonkey]

any idea of fee they will charge but :p?

i was under the impression once those batteries were dead, they were almost impossible to get rid of, no body wants them and the dont decay very well.. and the metal that they have in them by the end of its life is oxidised and worthless, the acid becomes weak but still to acidic to just poor out.. and you cant burn them cause they explode and release a dangerous corrosive gas.. and well the rest is plastic.. which can be melt down and re-used but thats about it..

[gmonkey]

Denmark has a very serious problem: they have got too much wind power generation! You can't simply turn off a wind turbine because the wind would damage it. At night, when use is very low, they send power to the Germans. Funny thing is, the Danes have to pay the Germans to take over their excess power! That's exactly why charging batteries over night, and lots of them, is so appealing in Denmark.


they just need a vegas :p

[mania]

Lithiums don't contain any toxic chemicals, and I believe can be recycled at low cost.

Don't understand the danish problem though... there's easier ways to waste energy then to pay someone to do it for you :p.