New Focus RS - Full details released !

[Wraith]

In short:

2.5ltr IL5 - 224kw / 440nm (FWD with Quaife LSD)

0-100km/h - 5.9sec.

Top speed - 263km/h

Efficiency - combined cycle 9.4ltrs/100km

Full story - check out the link :)

http://www.motorauthority.com/ford-releases-official-details-for-upcoming-focus-rs.html

[btm]

god damn!! :eek:

she's quick!

[Keep'emRunning]

39000 euros = approx A$77000.. plus have to pay the govt beauracrats thier slice as well... that's almost up into luxury sports car territory.

For a ford...? Buy an evo and save some $$$ :D

Looks nice though

[Wraith]

god damn!! :eek:

she's quick!

224kw / 440nm / 1467kg = very good power/weight ratio and with that 'revo' front end LSD set up, it should IMO do better than 5.9sec to 100km/h...there would also be some 10's lost in the MT shifts, if it were equipped with an automated manual it would be much quicker for sure...

I disagree with the way they think this 'revo' set up can do away with an AWD setup and achieve the same performance :rolleyes: sure it's good, but even a heavier AWD setup would be quicker - look at the wrx's for eg: lower power/weight ratios, but much quicker acceleration times, even the similar power/weight ratio AWD TTS with MT is alot quicker than that ;)

Will be interesting to see how the new Mazda MPS 3 will shape out and go like, it too will feature this 'revo' set up, have similar power, IMO look better, be more practicle with its 5 door hatch layout and cost alot less than this RS Focus :smile2:

[GreyRex]

I disagree with the way they think this 'revo' set up can do away with an AWD setup and achieve the same performance :rolleyes: sure it's good, but even a heavier AWD setup would be quicker -

It's called marketing...

I don't care what anyone says... that much power through the front wheels only will not work as a daily driver

Imagine it in the wet... scary!!

[aza28]

read about this in one of the latest mags, styling hasn't changed really that much, if at all, from the concept vehicle. good numbers. would have been nice if it was AWD though. Pitty about the price.

[Rhino]

I don't care what anyone says... that much power through the front wheels only will not work as a daily driver

Imagine it in the wet... scary!!
Says more about the person sitting behind the steering wheel.
How exactly do you drive daily?

[GreyRex]

Says more about the person sitting behind the steering wheel.
How exactly do you drive daily?

haha ok

Varies

For the price they'll be asking for this (o/s), i'd be looking at something else

I like the Focus, but would tend to look at others... R32, 125i, (obviously slower, by about 0.5 of a second), and the 135i

[Apex]

Im sure lots of loaded Chaves will buy them in the UK "yea"… Give me a classic Sierra RS Cosworth with the power going through the correct wheels any day. FWD/AWD FTL :p

[poita]

Loaded Chaves Apex lol

bit pricey i reckon, prob be $90k by the time they get here with all the bullshit.
hope not though, cause thats a rediculous amount of money for a focus

[Wraith]

Im sure lots of loaded Chaves will buy them in the UK "yea"… Give me a classic Sierra RS Cosworth with the power going through the correct wheels any day. FWD/AWD FTL :p

FWD is ok, RWD is better, AWD is best :prrr: :D

[Wraith]

Loaded Chaves Apex lol

bit pricey i reckon, prob be $90k by the time they get here with all the bullshit.
hope not though, cause thats a rediculous amount of money for a focus

In the current economic climate, I dare say bringing that RS here at 90k is sheer lunacy and suicide in terms of sales success :out:

You could get an almost fully loaded 135i for that amount or a basic TTS on road for that much, or a fully loaded new S3 with 20k change, the list goes on, what moron would prefer that RS over those other choices :mad2:

Maybe some would...yes crazy :crazy:

[JohnBu]

The RS will retail for £24,995 in the UK.

Not sure where talk of AUD$80/90k is coming from, you can't directly convert the price of an car overseas by converting today's currency to accurately price the car.

In the highly unlikely event the RS were to be sold here, comparing prices of other cars in the UK, it will sit between say the Golf R32 (£22k) and 350z (£26k)- so therefore all things being equal it should be around the $60k mark.

so there you have it. Johnbu's wisdom of knowledge of the day. Don't argue with it.

[57U-00]

I'm sorry, but if i could afford it, i would fork that amount of cash over with a HUGE freakin smile on my face... my first card was an RS modified ford... i love them, and the reason its not AWD is because their aim was to break the 220kw benchmark from a front wheel drive vehicle as they had been told it couldn't be done...

sadly they only JUST made it over it, but be that as it may they still cleared 220kw from a front wheel drive car...

[Wraith]

The RS will retail for £24,995 in the UK.

Not sure where talk of AUD$80/90k is coming from, you can't directly convert the price of an car overseas by converting today's currency to accurately price the car.

In the highly unlikely event the RS were to be sold here, comparing prices of other cars in the UK, it will sit between say the Golf R32 (£22k) and 350z (£26k)- so therefore all things being equal it should be around the $60k mark.

so there you have it. Johnbu's wisdom of knowledge of the day. Don't argue with it.

Sounds good to me John, won't argue with that at all, I think your on the money there with the pricing ;)

But still for 60k, I'd go for something else...plenty better for the same money !

The new Mazda MPS 3 IMO will also be better o/a for alot less than 60k...

[poita]

it was just a stab in the dark John, no proof or accuracy in it whatsoever ;)

[Wraith]

I'm sorry, but if i could afford it, i would fork that amount of cash over with a HUGE freakin smile on my face... my first card was an RS modified ford... i love them, and the reason its not AWD is because their aim was to break the 220kw benchmark from a front wheel drive vehicle as they had been told it couldn't be done...

sadly they only JUST made it over it, but be that as it may they still cleared 220kw from a front wheel drive car...

I'd buy the regular XR5T which looks better/neater/cleaner IMHO, mod it easily to that power output, add some extras to it and pocket the change, enjoy the stealth of it too without being hassled by idiots wanting to give you a run everywhere you go when you have something like this RS which just yells out - lets drag - just by looking at it...

Still each to his own, whatever makes you happy and can live with :)

[57U-00]

or you could do what u just said also... lol...

[JohnBu]

I'd buy the regular XR5T which looks better/neater/cleaner IMHO, mod it easily to that power output, add some extras to it and pocket the change, enjoy the stealth of it too without being hassled by idiots wanting to give you a run everywhere you go when you have something like this RS which just yells out - lets drag - just by looking at it...

Still each to his own, whatever makes you happy and can live with :)

i like the RS, its just too pricey compared to the competition.

sure you can mod the XR5 to outperform the RS, however, it will never be a RS seats, brakes, LSD, resale value. Same principal applies on why you bought the Clubsport R8, I'm certain you could buy a SS and modify it to outperform the R8 and still pocket the change. Some people don't want the hassles of a modded car and prefer to drive away with an excellent package.

let's hope the fact the RS is FWD won't undermine it's performance, i.e. original integra type r and renaultsport magane r.26

until then I'll give the RS the benefit of the doubt.. so 1 thumb up at this stage.

[Wraith]

i like the RS, its just too pricey compared to the competition.

sure you can mod the XR5 to outperform the RS, however, it will never be a RS seats, brakes, LSD, resale value. Same principal applies on why you bought the Clubsport R8, I'm certain you could buy a SS and modify it to outperform the R8 and still pocket the change. Some people don't want the hassles of a modded car and prefer to drive away with an excellent package.

let's hope the fact the RS is FWD won't undermine it's performance, i.e. original integra type r and renaultsport magane r.26

until then I'll give the RS the benefit of the doubt.. so 1 thumb up at this stage.

True and good point...like the sales pitch, I just had to have one...wouldn't go down that route again, unless something really blew me away, much like this new TTS which I'm still trying to justify if its worth going for :angel:

[DEE-80Y]

I like the look of this car ALOT. Shame it is onlt FWD, as I think AWD would do really well.
It's just a shame Ford aren't bringing these to our shores last time I read (please correct me if i'm wrong).
I have been looking at buying an XR5 only because I need the extra doors, and I really like the look of them.
But as stated earlier, you can buy a XR5 and mod it to put out more power as there is alot of after market stuff available for the XR5. But it will only be a matter of time before someone with a bit of $$$ buys a RS and throws a few after market mods under the bonnet and does some massive damage with one of these.

I for one am interested in how these are gonna go with a few mods attached.

[Wraith]

I like the look of this car ALOT. Shame it is onlt FWD, as I think AWD would do really well.
It's just a shame Ford aren't bringing these to our shores last time I read (please correct me if i'm wrong).
I have been looking at buying an XR5 only because I need the extra doors, and I really like the look of them.
But as stated earlier, you can buy a XR5 and mod it to put out more power as there is alot of after market stuff available for the XR5. But it will only be a matter of time before someone with a bit of $$$ buys a RS and throws a few after market mods under the bonnet and does some massive damage with one of these.

I for one am interested in how these are gonna go with a few mods attached.

It all depends on how much the motor can handle, before it needs to be modded/strngthened as well...

How much extra you can get with a simple re-map depends on the capacity of the turbo, injection, fuel pump etc. that one you'll have to wait for to get details, however you can pretty much bet on getting at least a 20% increase in power and torque with basic mods to any turbocharged vehicle these days :)

Don't know how much benifit that would be though to a FWD car, that's always the limiting factor to actually gettimng to use power and torque increases...

[Huhness]

Guys Euro and Pound prices do not translate to $AUS otherwise an XR5 would be close to $43000 instead it is $36000.

This car will not make it onto our shores either. BUT FPV will hopefully 'borrow' ideas and parts from the RS and make their own version using the Aussie made Focus. Not for a long time though. But I've been told they want to make a better Focus than their Euro counterparts. Hopefully they get the budget to do it.

****ing awesome car.

/Thread. :angel:

[Huhness]

It all depends on how much the motor can handle, before it needs to be modded/strngthened as well...

How much extra you can get with a simple re-map depends on the capacity of the turbo, injection, fuel pump etc. that one you'll have to wait for to get details, however you can pretty much bet on getting at least a 20% increase in power and torque with basic mods to any turbocharged vehicle these days :)

Don't know how much benifit that would be though to a FWD car, that's always the limiting factor to actually gettimng to use power and torque increases...
The RS will already come with uprated internals and a larger turbo. Sooo if the ST can get 200kw at the flywheel. I'd say the RS would make near 300kw atf with Tune, Upgraded IC, CAI and exhaust.

[scotty_gsi]

ill have one in green :D very nice car love what the guys at ford rs do to the cars imo u cant beat the rs cosworths

[USC]

god damn!! :eek:

she's quick!

Not as quick as the new WRX. 0 -100 in 5.3 secs I hear.

[Wraith]

Not as quick as the new WRX. 0 -100 in 5.3 secs I hear.

Noted already in one of my earlier posts, hence my comments regarding this new 'revo' FWD set up, it might be better than previous FWD's but simply can't match AWD :)

Speaking of the new WRX it's very hard to go past for everything and for value for money, that's for sure...

I've checked out the new WRX sedan up close, I likey :)

[rjastra]

Speaking of the new WRX it's very hard to go past for everything and for value for money, that's for sure...

I've checked out the new WRX sedan up close, I likey :)

But the interior of the WRX (and Lancer) are both cheapo to the extreme. Not an single bit of desirability when sitting in them.

[USC]

But the interior of the WRX (and Lancer) are both cheapo to the extreme. Not an single bit of desirability when sitting in them.

Thats true..hence why they dont cost a lot either. $40K for a car that des 0-100 in 5.3 secs is bloody awesome!
Agree with Wraith, the new WRX sedan looks nice..I dont mind it at all:)

[Wraith]

But the interior of the WRX (and Lancer) are both cheapo to the extreme. Not an single bit of desirability when sitting in them.

It's really not bad at all IMHO...

Before checking it out, that's what I thought but now not so...even compared to the Ralliart Lancer I checked out late last year, I prefer the WRX sedan - hands down better o/a IMHO...

The one I checked out had the full kit, ie: leather interior, sunroof, sat nav with full info screen - very nice touches and functionality which gives the interior a nice boost in feel and quality :)

The black leather seats with red stitching and red WRX embroidery are very nice indeed, the dash dial cluster is a little bit of a let down in design, but it does have a nice red light up colour with nice white lit needles which do the full swing around on start up and the info display has some nice digital gauge display features, very nice feature IMO :)

As mentioned by USC above, the WRX sedan is a very nice looking car and you could probably score one for 40k or under on road, IMHO for all its kit and performance, there ain't much better around...

[rjastra]

It's really not bad at all IMHO...
The one I checked out had the full kit, ie: leather interior, sunroof, sat nav with full info screen - very nice touches and functionality which gives the interior a nice boost in feel and quality :)


And you have just added nearly 6K to the asking price!
Same problem when you start optioning a GOlf GTI.

[gslrallysport]

The only time FWD doesn't work as well as AWD is:

- Off the line
- In the wet*
- On dirt*
- Under braking (on dirt*)

* Anyone who saw Guy Wilks in the Honda Civic at the last round of last year's ARC consistently matching Simon Evan's S2000 AWD in the pouring rain may argue those points, but the Civic is a weapon, and Wilks is a freak... still he proved a bloody good point, and to put a 2WD in second place of an ARC heat outright ahead of the country's fastest AWD's has showed how far FWD's have come.

On bitumen I can't see FWD being a big issue for the RS... On dirt AWD's biggest advantage is in braking and power down out of slow corners, but I can't see too many RS's leaving the blacktop. And on the upside, at least you won't see it at drift meets...

[Wraith]

And you have just added nearly 6K to the asking price!
Same problem when you start optioning a GOlf GTI.

To the RRP yes, but it's a different story if your ready to buy...good deals going ATM because of weak new car sales as you know, (especially with the mainstream Japanese brands) I didn't negotiate at all because I'm not in the market for one, but I'll bet if I had, I could drive away with one for 40k or less fully optioned !

Speaking of the Gti for me TBH a Golf Gti dosn't even compare to this new WRX and will always cost more regardless of kit/features fitout, looks aside as you could only compare the Golf to the hatch WRX and it's an individual choice thing, the new WRX has it beat on everything and it costs less :)

[Wraith]

The only time FWD doesn't work as well as AWD is:

- Off the line
- In the wet*
- On dirt*
- Under braking (on dirt*)

* Anyone who saw Guy Wilks in the Honda Civic at the last round of last year's ARC consistently matching Simon Evan's S2000 AWD in the pouring rain may argue those points, but the Civic is a weapon, and Wilks is a freak... still he proved a bloody good point, and to put a 2WD in second place of an ARC heat outright ahead of the country's fastest AWD's has showed how far FWD's have come.

On bitumen I can't see FWD being a big issue for the RS... On dirt AWD's biggest advantage is in braking and power down out of slow corners, but I can't see too many RS's leaving the blacktop. And on the upside, at least you won't see it at drift meets...

True and those conditions above will come up all too often as a daily driver on everyday roads everywhere...

AWD FTW ;)

[rjastra]

True and those conditions above will come up all too often as a daily driver on everyday roads everywhere...

AWD FTW ;)

I think in the vast majority of conditions AWD is quite unneccesary. Not to mention the added heft it adds (ralliart lancer is 1550kg!). Sophisticated ESP/VDC has also reduced the requirement for AWD. The final nail in the upcoming coffin will be ever tightening fuel economy standards. The Lancer/WrX find it hard to get below 10L/100km when cruising! Around town they slurp like a V6 Commodore.

[Wraith]

I think in the vast majority of conditions AWD is quite unneccesary. Not to mention the added heft it adds (ralliart lancer is 1550kg!). Sophisticated ESP/VDC has also reduced the requirement for AWD. The final nail in the upcoming coffin will be ever tightening fuel economy standards. The Lancer/WrX find it hard to get below 10L/100km when cruising! Around town they slurp like a V6 Commodore.

No doubt as technology improves FWD vehicles will benifit and become better and better, I too believe they're here to stay, so improvements will happen...Both my current vehicles and many past ones are/have been FWD, I've got no real prob against them, but after sampling some of todays finest AWD vehicles and comparing them to all my present and past FWD and RWD vehicles I've had over the last 25 years, their superiority in many aspects of performance and safety is too obvious to ignore, I definitely want to buy and own at least some AWD vehicles from now on :)

Maybe Japanese manufacturers will move to non full time AWD set ups (like Haldex) to try and achieve better economy figures, they are already putting out diesel powered variants of most of their models, but I seriously doubt they or anyone else with AWD will give them up entirely...AWD is here to stay IMHO and I for one am glad about that :)

[rjastra]

Details on the MPS3 have been trickled out

Same 2.3 l engine and power.
Same 6 speed auto - no dsg or auto
no quaife like LSD like focus RS
no awd

[GreyRex]

Details on the MPS3 have been trickled out

Same 2.3 l engine and power.
Same 6 speed auto - no dsg or auto
no quaife like LSD like focus RS
no awd

Gee this is going to be interesting

It's almost identical to the previous model

And that damn mouth is turning Peugeoutesque

[Wraith]

Details on the MPS3 have been trickled out

Same 2.3 l engine and power.
Same 6 speed auto - no dsg or auto
no quaife like LSD like focus RS
no awd

I've being reading the same thing for quite some time too...personally I won't believe it until I see it, dosn't make sense for a manufacturer (especially in these tough market selling times) to release a new performance model with no gain mechanically over the previous model, can't be good for sales ??

Definitely no 'automated manual' trans on the horizon for any Mazda just yet...and also don't think Mazda will do AWD for their smaller passenger cars either.

With regards to autos, I believe they're going to offer one for the new MPS 6 ??

Interestingly though I read an article only last week which suggested the new MPS 3 will have at least 221kw and the same 'revo' LSD set up as the Focus to control the extra power and torque, that's a far more logical configuration and should do alot more for desirability and sales IMHO :)

Also one to look out for will be the upcoming MPS 2, persistant articles going around that this model is coming, I've read it'll be powered by a 1.6ltr turbo engine...should be a very nice looking little beast :)

[Wraith]

And that damn mouth is turning Peugeoutesque

Not that big and ugly just yet LOL :lol:

I think we'll all be pleasantly surprised with the new MPS 3 when it's finally unvielled, I'm still confident there's no way it'll have the same numbers as the current model as mentioned in my post above, one obvious give away is the new bonnet scoop, there were no probs with the current set up...so why go to all that trouble if it wasn't to serve a purpose for a need for greater IC cooling capacity ;)

[rjastra]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F85E494498CEC4BCCA2575520002780B/$file/Mazda3_-MPS_Main.jpg

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F85E494498CEC4BCCA2575520002780B/$file/Mazda3_-MPS_Stack1.jpg

1. MPS6 - i think this is dead in the water OR it will be a 3.7L V6 auto version in more of a GT theme. See the US version of the Mazda 6. The yanks haven't really fallen in love with the new 6.

2. MPS2 - i could have sworn that MAzda knocked that model on the head. If it does come about it would most likely use Ford Ecoboost 1.6L engine.

3. To keep the MPS3 price in check I think it will be as closely based on the cooking model 3s as possible. There is no need for more power as the 2.3L already out performs the current crop of hatches and the 2.3L really needs some economy gains. Grams of c02/Km seem much more important in Europe than secs to 100km/h :)


FRESH from knocking off the Holden Commodore to become Australia’s best-selling car so far this year – and toppling the Toyota Corolla in the small-car sales stakes in January – the Mazda3 will get a new MPS model to crown this year’s second-generation range in Australia by October.

Turning up the styling volume significantly from the five-door hatch upon which it is based, Mazda’s latest MPS car bristles with an aggressive new sports bodykit comprising a big, bold matt-black bumper insert with twin exhaust outlets and a chunkier wing at the rear, plus a new grille, driving lights and an oversized bonnet scoop up front.

While garden-variety 2.0-litre and (SP25-badged) 2.5-litre versions of the all-new Mazda3 hatch and four-door sedan will go on sale here by June “at the latest”, the new 2.2-litre turbo-diesel and flagship MPS variants will follow by a respective two weeks and four months.

The handful of teaser images released by Mazda ahead of the car’s global public debut at the Geneva motor show on March 3 reveals little mechanically about the latest MPS, but a direct-injected 2.3-litre turbocharged four-cylinder has been confirmed to again power the Mazda3 flagship.

As previously reported, however, despite the beefier new bonnet scoop, the 2010 Mazda3 MPS is unlikely to deliver much more performance than the current model’s 190kW of power and 380Nm of torque. Expect the current six-speed manual to continue to be the sole transmission on offer, too.

Senior Mazda executives have already ruled out the employment of the Mazda6 MPS’s all-wheel drive hardware – or the automatic torque-biasing limited-slip Quaife differential used in Ford’s closely related Focus RS, for that matter – on the basis of cost.

So expect the smallest MPS car to land with the same sharp, sub-$40,000 sticker price as hot-hatch rivals such as Mitsubishi’s Lancer Ralliart and Subaru’s Impreza WRX.

According to Mazda, the new-generation Three MPS will “rewrite hot-hatch benchmarks”.

Mazda3 program manager Yoshiyuki Maeda said the exhilarating Mazda3 MPS was the ultimate sporting expression of our new-generation Mazda3 range.

“It builds on the already capable new-generation Mazda3 hatch with higher levels of ferocity and exhilaration, and – like all new Mazda models – with an eye to environmental concerns, powering responsibly into the motoring future,” he said.

“The MPS has evolved to an entirely new level of emotional design and exhilarating performance. The new-generation Mazda3 MPS is the embodiment of Mazda’s Zoom-Zoom spirit.”


Golf GTi

http://www.ausmotive.com/images/VW-MkVI-GTI-15.jpg

[gslrallysport]

Is anybody else getting bored with the sameish rims and sameish body shape of the Golfs now... There's only so much changing headlights can do...

[Wraith]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F85E494498CEC4BCCA2575520002780B/$file/Mazda3_-MPS_Main.jpg

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/F85E494498CEC4BCCA2575520002780B/$file/Mazda3_-MPS_Stack1.jpg

1. MPS6 - i think this is dead in the water OR it will be a 3.7L V6 auto version in more of a GT theme. See the US version of the Mazda 6. The yanks haven't really fallen in love with the new 6.

2. MPS2 - i could have sworn that MAzda knocked that model on the head. If it does come about it would most likely use Ford Ecoboost 1.6L engine.

3. To keep the MPS3 price in check I think it will be as closely based on the cooking model 3s as possible. There is no need for more power as the 2.3L already out performs the current crop of hatches and the 2.3L really needs some economy gains. Grams of c02/Km seem much more important in Europe than secs to 100km/h :)



Golf GTi

http://www.ausmotive.com/images/VW-MkVI-GTI-15.jpg

Interesting rj, I'm still going to wait and see what the final specification is on the MPS 3 - it may very well be initially released as spec. above, but who's to say we won't see a more powerful 2.3 or a turbo'b 2.5ltr in the future ?? people wanting economy can opt for the 2.2ltr TDi which as mentioned in another thread is one of the best new TDi's going around...

New Golf Gti front looks like a hybrid of the new Scirocco and some elements of the forth coming Audi TT-RS...

Would take an MPS 3 over the Golf anyday myself :)

Oh and don't discount the MPS 2 just yet, there are too many rumours and reports of this car around to think it won't happen for sure and judging by how well Mazda are doing, they might just have all the incentive needed :)

[rjastra]

Is anybody else getting bored with the sameish rims and sameish body shape of the Golfs now... There's only so much changing headlights can do...

the Mk VI Golf is really more of a major facelift than a wholesale redesign. Much like the new Mazda 3.

What I do appreciate is that VW seems to be able to design a front of a car that passes all crash and pedestrian laws without it needing to look like the bluff front on the mazda 3/ Pug 308.


it may very well be initially released as spec. above, but who's to say we won't see a more powerful 2.3 or a turbo'b 2.5ltr in the future ?? people wanting economy can opt for the 2.2ltr TDi which as mentioned in another thread is one of the best new TDi's going around...


Maybe, who knows. Reports I am reading on the "hi-po 2.2L" in europe is that it is laggy.


Available in 123bhp, 161bhp and 183bhp forms, the unit replaces the existing 138bhp 2.0-litre. It features a stiffer engine block and a chain-driven balancer shaft to improve refinement.

Sure enough, on the motorway the 183bhp model is a brilliant cruiser. However, it suffers from turbo lag, so low-speed driving round town becomes a series of lunges. Torque steer is a problem under hard acceleration, too.


An AWD hi-po Golf GTI is slated for production.

[Wraith]

Yes, that's correct ^^^

There will be a Golf 'Gti-R' AWD hi-po version in the Mk6 range, it will have the same running gear as the Audi S3 (ie: Haldex 4 AWD and 188kw / 340nm 2.0 TFSI) similar to what's in the Audi TTS :)

It's a good engine for tuning too, it's got all the strengthened internals and can be easily mapped to 240kw / 450nm with nothing else done...in Germany tunes for this engine (and the one in the TTS) are at 280kw / 502nm :eek1: very nice and of course AWD to utilise it all :D

Don't expect it to be cheap though, around 55k at least IMO...however this variant I would consider over an MPS 3, would probably make a good and cheaper alternative to the S3

[Apex]

True and those conditions above will come up all too often as a daily driver on everyday roads everywhere...

AWD FTW ;)

Horses for courses, I would have a AWD over a FWD if the car has lots of power, in lesser cases its useless.

Both pale in comparison proper method of dispersing power which is threw the rear wheels, in most cases (GTR excluded) I have found AWD unsettling, wooden and outright boring, it works on a loose or exceptionally slippery surface but so does a tractor.. You wouldn’t go carting on a quad now would you.

[Wraith]

Horses for courses, I would have a AWD over a FWD if the car has lots of power, in lesser cases its useless.

Both pale in comparison proper method of dispersing power which is threw the rear wheels, in most cases (GTR excluded) I have found AWD unsettling, wooden and outright boring, it works on a loose or exceptionally slippery surface but so does a tractor.. You wouldn’t go carting on a quad now would you.

Interesting point I would also agree with there and ie: I would prefer a non full time AWD or either rear or front wheel biased AWD set up like what you get with Haldex equipped vehicles or as you've mentioned Nissans Altesa AWD (hopefully got the spelling right there) :)

Although I can't say for sure as I'm no expert and have not had enough time behind the wheel of permanant AWD vehicles such as the WRX or Evos...

One thing's for sure, I definitely prefer AWD these days for myself, but may yet end up with another FWD vehicle at least as a DD - am very interested in the new Mazda 3 with the 2.2 TDi and even the new Ford Fiesta :)

[rjastra]

Has anyone here driven a relatively current WRX or STI? They are understeering pigs, and hardly a razor sharp handler.

The best awd setup send the majority of power to the rear wheels.

[Wraith]

Has anyone here driven a relatively current WRX or STI? They are understeering pigs, and hardly a razor sharp handler.

The best awd setup send the majority of power to the rear wheels.

Had the chance to do so on 2 occaisions recently, but didn't bother because I didn't want to be haggled for a sale after a long test drive of both the new Ralliart Lancer and new WRX...

Might give it a shot some time in future just to get 'a feel' of them...

There are a few here who've driven the new WRX (ie: the '08) and commented on how good it was to drive, no doubt the new '09 is heaps better...but then to get an idea on how good or not they are at or close to the limits, you'd have to get onto a track, something you can't really explore with your typical dealer test drive (unless you know someone personally) and most end users will never drive their car to those conditions either I suppose :)

BR would be a good one to ask regarding the new STI but he's not around here much these days - no doubt spending heaps of time on the Rex forums :)

[gslrallysport]

The best awd setup send the majority of power to the rear wheels.
yes, yes, they do!!!!!!!

<--- See avatar! I'll take my 38/62 F/R torque split any day! :D

But that may actually be a handbrake induced slide, and nothing to do with the mighty power of the 3.6L V6... But on dirt, with the traction control fuse pulled out, the mechanical split is MAGIC!

[Wraith]

yes, yes, they do!!!!!!!

<--- See avatar! I'll take my 38/62 F/R torque split any day! :D

But that may actually be a handbrake induced slide, and nothing to do with the mighty power of the 3.6L V6... But on dirt, with the traction control fuse pulled out, the mechanical split is MAGIC!


60/40 rear/front split sounds good...would be even better if you can adjust it to your own personal liking, I believe this can be done from inside the vehicle with the Subaru STI and some Libertys...

Can also be done with sotware re-programming on the Haldex AWD systems :)

[gslrallysport]

There's other reasons though why AWD's under steer, and not all of it is to do with the torque split. Subaru's biggest problem is that as lovely as the 'symmetrical AWD' is, it places the motor well forward of the front axle line (as apposed to inline with it in something like an evo), and dialing that under steer out means sacrificing other areas. Also manufacturers will also make a car more likely to understeer for safety reasons.

I've driven some of the Audi AWD's, which are predominately a front driver, and they're pretty reasonable in the understeer department.

[JohnBu]

I've driven some of the Audi AWD's, which are predominately a front driver, and they're pretty reasonable in the understeer department.

reasonably good or reasonably bad?

[Wraith]

There's other reasons though why AWD's under steer, and not all of it is to do with the torque split. Subaru's biggest problem is that as lovely as the 'symmetrical AWD' is, it places the motor well forward of the front axle line (as apposed to inline with it in something like an evo), and dialing that under steer out means sacrificing other areas. Also manufacturers will also make a car more likely to understeer for safety reasons.

I've driven some of the Audi AWD's, which are predominately a front driver, and they're pretty reasonable in the understeer department.

Yep, that's one I keep thinking of too with all this AWD talk, the Audi TTS I recently extensively test drove on 2 seperate occaisions...

They are set up front wheel drive biased from factory, essentially only engaging the rears on traction losses and the way the Haldex 4 does this is amazing...this is also how they achieve excellent efficiency figures and also why they have fantastic rolling acceleration figures as on the run FWD's don't suffer the traction probs they have on standing starts, power will go to the front wheels only thereby reducing the amount lost through driving all 4 wheels...and you can have the Haldex software re-programmed to how you want it, APR does this along with the engine maps :)

That TTS I test drove for eg. will murder a 135i from 80-120km/h in either 4th, 5th or 6th IMO after having driven both vehicles almost back to back and of course on take off from a standing start, no contest with the advantage of AWD traction :)

[gslrallysport]

reasonably good or reasonably bad?
sorry... reasonably good! What he said ^

[GreyRex]

That TTS I test drove for eg. will murder a 135i from 80-120km/h in either 4th, 5th or 6th IMO after having driven both vehicles almost back to back and of course on take off from a standing start, no contest with the advantage of AWD traction :)

Seriously mate...

Is this the Opel forum or ???

I'm all for supporting fellow forum members, but some of the stuff you say...

In absolutely no way does a TTS 'monster' a 135i

In gear? Here's the stats. Manual in both, 80 - 120km/h:

BMW 135i (seconds)/ Audi TTS
3rd gear 3.7/ 3.4
4th gear 4.9/ 4.2
5th gear 5.8/ 5.5
6th gear 7.0/ 7.3

Summary? Audi is on average 0.3 seconds faster. I wouldn't exactly call that being 'monstored'


Tested (not claimed) 0 - 100km/h by Motor Magazine:
BMW 135i/ Audi TTS
5.81/ 5.56

Standing starts times? "The manual TTS is prone to bogging down and the new electronically controlled Haldex IV all-wheel drive system seems to soak up the torque on flat shifts. While this meant we struggled to match Audi's 5.4sec 0-100km/h, it is definately no slouch"

Summary? Audi is faster again by 0.3 seconds, allowing for the fact you are happy to dump the clutch at higher revs and let the drivetrain/gearbox take all the strain


Tested (not claimed) 0 - 400m by Motor Magazine
BMW 135i / Audi TTS
14.08/ 13.99

Summary? Almost identical


Brakes?

Audi has bigger front rotors by 2mm (338 against 340)


Now of course Audi has the DSG gearbox, which makes it quicker again. But that then brings us to another clincher... price.
BMW 135i/ Audi TTS
$72,230 (man)/ $95,003 (man)
$75,195 (man)/ $98,816 (DSG auto)

Summary? On average the TTS (man or auto) is $23,197 more expensive; for almost identical in gear and 0 - 400m times, and an almost useless rear seat


Tuning? You say the TTS is good for 280kw / 502nm. Just the other day here in Melb, EvolveTechnik told us a 335i was tuned 225kw/400nm to 268kw/500nm just with software.


In other words, both are very very good cars. Both are tunable to similar results. Both go about their speed in different ways, but are very very similar in the numbers they produce. If you're happy to pay the premium for the TTS, i say GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!

I'm not having a go at all. There are pros and cons with each. But if you want it that bad, well... i think you've already made your mind up

[Apex]

There's other reasons though why AWD's under steer, and not all of it is to do with the torque split. Subaru's biggest problem is that as lovely as the 'symmetrical AWD' is, it places the motor well forward of the front axle line (as apposed to inline with it in something like an evo), and dialing that under steer out means sacrificing other areas. Also manufacturers will also make a car more likely to understeer for safety reasons.

I've driven some of the Audi AWD's, which are predominately a front driver, and they're pretty reasonable in the understeer department.


Meh, reasonably good doesn’t cut it if your spending that kind of money, the rear generally kicks in when the front starts under steering and so on the sea saw begins its un settling unnatural motion, they can be man handled round a corner with decent pace but ultimately they lack the finesse and balance of a well set up rear wheel drive.



I have found modern STI’s to be one of the best AWD’s as they have a much more natural feel threw the wheel, I think it’s a case of learning a WRX driving style.. lift off, inertia oversteer, flaw it. The engine may be forward but it has a low center of gravity being a boxer and is mounted north/south meaning the gear box comes out the back rather than side, this is why they have a nice mechanical balance and torque split feel.

[rjastra]

I have found modern STI’s to be one of the best AWD’s as they have a much more natural feel threw the wheel, I think it’s a case of learning a WRX driving style.. lift off, inertia oversteer, flaw it. The engine may be forward but it has a low center of gravity being a boxer and is mounted north/south meaning the gear box comes out the back rather than side, this is why they have a nice mechanical balance and torque split feel.

The stock STI i have driven (2006 - 2.5L) on a few occassions has irritating initial turn in understeer. It only come alive when you give the gas through/out of a corner. It really is a case of brake, turn , point and squirt. Fast but hardly satisfying in the long-term.

[Wraith]

Seriously mate...

Is this the Opel forum or ???

I'm all for supporting fellow forum members, but some of the stuff you say...

In absolutely no way does a TTS 'monster' a 135i

In gear? Here's the stats. Manual in both, 80 - 120km/h:

BMW 135i (seconds)/ Audi TTS
3rd gear 3.7/ 3.4
4th gear 4.9/ 4.2
5th gear 5.8/ 5.5
6th gear 7.0/ 7.3

Summary? Audi is on average 0.3 seconds faster. I wouldn't exactly call that being 'monstored'


Tested (not claimed) 0 - 100km/h by Motor Magazine:
BMW 135i/ Audi TTS
5.81/ 5.56

Standing starts times? "The manual TTS is prone to bogging down and the new electronically controlled Haldex IV all-wheel drive system seems to soak up the torque on flat shifts. While this meant we struggled to match Audi's 5.4sec 0-100km/h, it is definately no slouch"

Summary? Audi is faster again by 0.3 seconds, allowing for the fact you are happy to dump the clutch at higher revs and let the drivetrain/gearbox take all the strain


Tested (not claimed) 0 - 400m by Motor Magazine
BMW 135i / Audi TTS
14.08/ 13.99

Summary? Almost identical


Brakes?

Audi has bigger front rotors by 2mm (338 against 340)


Now of course Audi has the DSG gearbox, which makes it quicker again. But that then brings us to another clincher... price.
BMW 135i/ Audi TTS
$72,230 (man)/ $95,003 (man)
$75,195 (man)/ $98,816 (DSG auto)

Summary? On average the TTS (man or auto) is $23,197 more expensive; for almost identical in gear and 0 - 400m times, and an almost useless rear seat


Tuning? You say the TTS is good for 280kw / 502nm. Just the other day here in Melb, EvolveTechnik told us a 335i was tuned 225kw/400nm to 268kw/500nm just with software.


In other words, both are very very good cars. Both are tunable to similar results. Both go about their speed in different ways, but are very very similar in the numbers they produce. If you're happy to pay the premium for the TTS, i say GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!

I'm not having a go at all. There are pros and cons with each. But if you want it that bad, well... i think you've already made your mind up

As for the 1st comment, yes it's an Opel forum da, but all of us talk as much about other cars as Opels do we not ?? ;)

As for my quotes on the performance, it was based on my experience driving the cars themselves - have you driven them ??? you have simply copied reviewed literature, you would not be quoting some of the comments above if you had driven a TTS, for eg: I can tell you for a fact, the TTS does not in any way bog down on take off ;)

I'm all to aware of the stats on these 2 cars and they're always different depending on the review you read - you'll find that the times for the manuals on these cars are all over the place !!!

FYI the 135i and TTS I test drove were 6sp auto (step) and 6sp DSG (steptronic) respectively... and I can only repeat, the TTS will murder the 135i in those guises, well as far as I could assess from driving them almost back to back as said...those time differences above you've quoted above can easily result in a car length or 2 in front and from my test drives, that's exactly what I think would happen - that's a clear win, so let me exaggerate a bit and call it a murdering LOL :)

Now for everything else you've written above, where did that come from :confused:

I didn't mention costs or comparisons of any other sort od comparison between these 2.........don't know what your on about going off on a tangent like that ???

I mentioned these 2 vehicles in relation to the topic at hand and that is or was AWD vs FWD vs RWD and the pros/cons of these set ups - did you not read the other posts ???

I brought up my recent experience with these 2 vehicles to make a point in relation to and answering aspects brought up in previous posts, I wasn't trying to boast or proclaim how good the TTS against a 135i, I do not have one in my garage and have not yet decided 100% to get one either, so I have NO reason to be biased and praise it, if it came across that way, apologies to you or anyone else it might have offended for whatever reason :confused:

[gslrallysport]

but ultimately they lack the finesse and balance of a well set up rear wheel drive.
Correct.


I have found modern STI’s to be one of the best AWD’s as they have a much more natural feel threw the wheelAgreed, any Impreza has good feel through the wheel because unlike alot of cars, the Impreza (and all subie's from memory, but don't quote me), run a forward mounted steering rack. Certainly doesn't hide their inherit understeer, but does help you control the car better when provoked.


I think it’s a case of learning a WRX driving style.. lift off, inertia oversteer, flaw it.That's any FrontWD driving style right there! A 50/50 split AWD (unlike a rear biased Atessa system) is only a FWD with rear assistance. Driving style is almost identical.


The engine may be forward but it has a low center of gravity being a boxer and is mounted north/south meaning the gear box comes out the back rather than side, this is why they have a nice mechanical balanceSorry, I cannot agree with you there. Subaru's marketing may have you beleive that, but having a low centre of gravity DOES NOT make up for the extreme lump of metal hanging forward of the front axle... There's a reason why Subaru haven't won a WRC round since 2005, and why cars with a transfer mounted engine and gearbox have dominated rallying (real racing, not roundy roundy stuff) for the last 5 years. On the limit (like 10 or 11 tenths) the Subaru is an uncontrollable, unpredictable bucket of shyte, and neither the likes of Solberg or Atkinson could drive around it. As Atkinson just recently said, the C4 works better the harder you push it, which definitely wasn't the case with the Subaru.

The Subaru doesn't have that low a centre of gravity cause you've still got the exhaust to fit underneath it, and compared to say an Evo, it accounts for 3/4 SFA except for significantly inheriting it's change of direction and on limit balance. On the street, or even the track at 6-8 tenths, they can be setup to be quite neutral or in fact natural oversteer, but at 10 tenths they're far and away the hardest cars to control.

Don't get me wrong, in the next 12 months I'll be purchasing an 04-06 Group N STi, purely because at heart I'm a subie boy, and the parts bin is alot bigger and cheaper than the equivalent Evo. But I'm also well aware of their short comings, and prepared to admit it, despite the fact that I'll be forking out a significant amount of money for one...

[Wraith]

Don't get me wrong, in the next 12 months I'll be purchasing an 04-06 Group N STi, purely because at heart I'm a subie boy, and the parts bin is alot bigger and cheaper than the equivalent Evo. But I'm also well aware of their short comings, and prepared to admit it, despite the fact that I'll be forking out a significant amount of money for one...

You've got to feel good about the fact that for a WRX or STI, or even the group N you want, these or any short comings mentioned are pretty small especially weighed up to the cost of the vehicles comparatively speaking, you couldn't go wrong getting one :)

[gslrallysport]

You've got to feel good about the fact that for a WRX or STI, or even the group N you want, these or any short comings mentioned are pretty small especially weighed up to the cost of the vehicles comparatively speaking, you couldn't go wrong getting one :)
Oh absolutely!!! And the way the Aussie dollar is going, the ready to rally ex-factory late model STi's you can pick up in NZ make it a very nice prospect! :yikes:

And the closest car to knocking off the Toyota roadshow in the ARC last year was an STi, not an Evo, but they require very different driving styles. An STi needs to be driven very smooth, and neat, whereas the Evo will more reward a back it in and floor it style. Coming from an underpowered front wheel drive and managing to knock of AWD's I'm happy to give the STi a crack...

The running costs are ridiculous though. The STi will go through the same number of tyres in one event that the Hyundai used in the whole season, then you've got gearbox rebuilds, engine rebuilds, driveshaft rebuilds... ANYONE can afford an STi rally car, VERY few can afford to run one. I'm taking 18 months off rallying all together just so I can afford to run one for one season... :(

[Apex]

Oh absolutely!!! And the way the Aussie dollar is going, the ready to rally ex-factory late model STi's you can pick up in NZ make it a very nice prospect! :yikes:

And the closest car to knocking off the Toyota roadshow in the ARC last year was an STi, not an Evo, but they require very different driving styles. An STi needs to be driven very smooth, and neat, whereas the Evo will more reward a back it in and floor it style. Coming from an underpowered front wheel drive and managing to knock of AWD's I'm happy to give the STi a crack...

The running costs are ridiculous though. The STi will go through the same number of tyres in one event that the Hyundai used in the whole season, then you've got gearbox rebuilds, engine rebuilds, driveshaft rebuilds... ANYONE can afford an STi rally car, VERY few can afford to run one. I'm taking 18 months off rallying all together just so I can afford to run one for one season... :(

They are very affordable over here and there are plenty to choose from. Go on, boost our economy, and buy a spare one as a parts car.

Only Islanders and Asians drive them over here….. They are just so gay as a road car.

[gslrallysport]

LOL yeah! Basically including importing and compliancing you can get them landed here for the same AUD as they're asking over there in NZD. Certainly opens up the options, and 04-06 full factory spec GrpN STi's can be had for $25k-$35k. Definitely cheaper than in Aus, and miles cheaper than building from scratch It's just a pitty you need about that figurie again to run one for a year... :(

[gslrallysport]

wow, talk about off topic... :(

Where were we, new Focus RS, looks good! :D

[Wraith]

Sounds good guys, gslrallysport what your planning sounds awesome, you've gotta write up on here your exploits when it all happens, I'm sure lots will look forward to reading up on your 1st hand experiences those rallys :)