Effects of Electric Vehicles

[digifish]

I was just reading about the Chev Volt...

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57105&vf=12&IsPgd=0

...the current discussion is that it will have ~60 km full-electric range and more with the generator running. I will start by saying that I think the idea of Hybrids is stupid, you go either full electric or economical internal combustion, combining the two is dumb. But that's not the reason for this post.

Even with a piddly 60 km range I would never visit a petrol station. I would be on electric power 100% of my daily commute. The cost to recharge that 60 km ~ $0.80, or about $8.00 per 600 km. My CDTi costs about $60 to cover the same distance. Obvious savings, obvious attraction.

Now here's the thing, these e-cars will start flooding onto the market (from a number of manufacturers) in 2010 onwards, I'd expect it to reach fever pitch around 2013-2015. Now think about the knock-on effects from the coming paradigm shift from internal combustion to e-cars...

1. Petrol consumption will start to plummet (all that money that was flowing into petro-chemical companies will go elsewhere)
2. Your 4c off at Woolworth's voucher will be irrelevant to you (so you shopping habits may change)
3. Power stations will sell more power, generate more efficiently and make more money
4. The value of internal combustion cars will plummet, overnight they will look old-tech, expensive to run and dirty
5. ...etc etc etc

This is going to be a storm...and it starts in ~2010

[glider]

thats a pretty poor range... i would be asking why so low when the ev1 had 260km

-edit-

The top speed has also been increased on the Volt, from 80 miles per hour (130 km/h) to 120 miles per hour (190 km/h). The battery pack size has also been reduced between the two, from about 300 L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liter) in volume in the EV1, to just 100 L in the Volt.

volt wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

[digifish]

thats a pretty poor range... i would be asking why so low when the ev1 had 260km

-edit-

The top speed has also been increased on the Volt, from 80 miles per hour (130 km/h) to 120 miles per hour (190 km/h). The battery pack size has also been reduced between the two, from about 300 L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liter) in volume in the EV1, to just 100 L in the Volt.

volt wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

I wouldn't sweat about the specs too much at this stage. I expect traditional manufacturers have to walk a fine line to make the transition, if the Volt did 300 km on a charge and did 200 km/hr I would expect traditional car sales would virtually stop over night. It's possible also that they are trading range for performance, quickish charge-times and less batteries to keep the costs down.

I can't help thinking that 'tuning' an e-car will be quite a business, replace a chip here or there, sacrifice range for power and you may well see 0-100 in 4 sec :)

digifish

[bornwild]

Ok, I've done some research into the LaTrobe valley and etc at uni. Hazelwood powerstation which is the main supplier of baseload energy for VIC currently uses wet brown cole which is abundant in VIC. Hazelwood is the dirtiest powerstation in the World. It produces, if I remember correctly, around 1.6T for each MWh produced.

And it says there that the Volt uses a 16kWh battery. Now if you do the calculation you'll find that, if the Volt was to be recharged during base-load via the Hazelwood powerstation, it would have emissions of 421g/km whilst running on the electric engine alone!!!!!

Your CDTi produces bloody 150g/km mate...electric isn't the solution, it's the opposite of that. Bloody hell...Electric energy isn't produced magically you know...

The way of the future is Hydrogen...

[digifish]

Ok, I've done some research into the LaTrobe valley and etc at uni. ...the Volt uses a 16kWh battery. Now if you do the calculation you'll find that, if the Volt was to be recharged during base-load via the Hazelwood powerstation, it would have emissions of 421g/km whilst running on the electric engine alone!!!!!

Your CDTi produces bloody 150g/km mate...electric isn't the solution, it's the opposite of that. Bloody hell...Electric energy isn't produced magically you know...

The way of the future is Hydrogen...

My thesis had nothing to do with the environment, but the change to the economy that e-cars will bring.

digifish

[bornwild]

I'm just trying to say, electric cars must not take off. People are gullible and will believe that electric is the way to go. Most of the industrialised world uses fossil fuels to produce electric energy. It's a bit of an oxymoron producing electric cars then...don't you think?

[digifish]

I'm just trying to say, electric cars must not take off. People are gullible and will believe that electric is the way to go. Most of the industrialised world uses fossil fuels to produce electric energy. It's a bit of an oxymoron producing electric cars then...don't you think?

I think they will take off, simply because they will be so cheap to run. Slashing your fuel bill to 1/10th the cost, it's going to pull a lot of sales.

That's what made me sit up and take notice.

digifish

[bornwild]

Though, in stating the above...if we were to produce electricity via renewable energy sources(Iceland uses 100% renewable energy, not a single kilo of fossil fuel is burnt) then electric cars are suitable. But not for the time being...

Either way, we are still far far away from a 'clean' car. The best we can do for the next 20-odd years is to be buying the latest tech diesel cars.

[bornwild]

I think they will take off, simply because they will be so cheap to run. Slashing your fuel bill to 1/10th the cost, it's going to pull a lot of sales.

That's what made me sit up and take notice.

digifish

Well, from that point of view...yes electric cars are great. They are doomed though...as soon as I run out of fuel for my diesel you'll be running out of electricity for your Volt also. :)

metaphorically speaking

[deviant]

I am really hoping that bio-fuels take off. I have not done a massive amount of research in to it but I think there are some massive benefits to it.

Most existing cars can run on it
It can be grown by third world countries thus generating an economy for them
The courdroy wearing yoghurt knitting hand wringers always shriek about farmers growing the crops for bio fuel instead of food crops...but heres the thing with bio fuel, it can be made from plant waste...banana skins, corn husks, plant leaves and stalks.
It can also be made from algea grown on lakes...so a lake is built, algea is grown for fuel...water is used for plants and live stock.

[digifish]

Well, from that point of view...yes electric cars are great. They are doomed though...as soon as I run out of fuel for my diesel you'll be running out of electricity for your Volt also. :)

metaphorically speaking

Actually I thought of a solution for the range, a small (and it would only need to be very small) trailer with a generator in it that you tow around charging as you drive for longer trips.

digifish

[bornwild]

I am really hoping that bio-fuels take off. I have not done a massive amount of research in to it but I think there are some massive benefits to it.

Most existing cars can run on it
It can be grown by third world countries thus generating an economy for them
The courdroy wearing yoghurt knitting hand wringers always shriek about farmers growing the crops for bio fuel instead of food crops...but heres the thing with bio fuel, it can be made from plant waste...banana skins, corn husks, plant leaves and stalks.
It can also be made from algea grown on lakes...so a lake is built, algea is grown for fuel...water is used for plants and live stock.

Exactly right :clap:

Only problem to be solved is the time it takes for a kg of biofuel to be produced. But with modern biotech and catalyst technology I think the solution to this will come in the near future.

[bornwild]

Actually I thought of a solution for the range, a small (and it would only need to be very small) trailer with a generator in it that you tow around charging as you drive for longer trips.

digifish

And the generator is running on...air?

[digifish]

And the generator is running on...air?

Whatever you want. Diesel would be better. Perhaps it's just an large external battery pack that you charge from your solar/nuclear/whatever power station.

You hire one for long trips and drop it back at the charging station when you are done.

Anyway, whatever happens, the status quo is about to get a huge shake-up.

digifish

[bornwild]

Yes but when the cost of fuel get's to $3/l it won't make any sense to have a generator produce your 16-20kWh...it will end up costing you more than the equivalent economy-diesel powered car?

[deviant]

Exactly right :clap:

Only problem to be solved is the time it takes for a kg of biofuel to be produced. But with modern biotech and catalyst technology I think the solution to this will come in the near future.

I would also hope that the countries growing it and the green warriors can see some sense in allowing a genetically engineered plant to be used that grows in about 2 weeks and drops thousands of seeds in one go to sustain the crop while surviving the harshest winters and hottest summers....imagine the Aussie outback being turned in to one big fuel farm!

people also yell about how bio-fuel will never sustain current use...well no it wont but considering there is enough oil IN BARRELS to sustain current use for something like 40 years bio-fuel could be used to just prop that supply up or to provide fuel for specific uses...public transport, emergency vehicles, electricity generation for essential buildings and the like.

until this or electric vehicles take off the next answer is in lightweight materials....take the Focus XR5, absolutely cracking car but weighs in at something like 1500KG. Imagine the fuel use and performance if it weighed 1000KG!!
The Elise does a great job of providing supercar performance for Toyota running costs...but it should for a car that weighs 900KG.

I know Gordon Murray who designed the McLaren F1 is trying to get a new green car off the ground through an efficient engine and composite materials but I think he is getting stuck on cost and convincing people they dont really need all the heavy luxuries.

[bornwild]

Well yeah, the problem for us Engineers in the department of vehicle weight is the Government imposed safety restrictions. The best of both worlds, cost and safety, lands you a car like a Focus weighing in at 1500kg. If we had more room for more adventurous safety techniques then we could probably drop that to 1000kg. But it's the Government imposed safety regulations.

Just imagine the Astra VXR weighing 1000kg....my God.

I do completely agree with you on that one though. Bio-fuel is quite a good solution to the problem we face.

[dieselhead]

I'm a bit skeptical about this Volt thing. Over a year ago they were talking about 600 miles total range, electric for 80 miles or so and the rest on petrol. The figures kept sliding ever since. Just the other day I saw Bob Lutz on the Daily Show, telling Jon Stewart the Volt will run about 30 miles electric and another 200-300 miles on petrol. Who knows, by the time GM will launch the car in 3rd quarter of 2010, the battery will hold enough juice to allow you leave your driveway in the morning... I could bet GM will stuff this up just like they did with the EV-1. I can read people's body language pretty well and let me tell you, Lutz's didn't match the marketing speak he was using one bit...

[rjastra]

Well yeah, the problem for us Engineers in the department of vehicle weight is the Government imposed safety restrictions.

The Lotus Elise passes all these hurdles and yet doesn't weigh over 1000kg ;)
There are plenty of small cars around 1000kg that pass safety standards.

[bornwild]

Yeah I don't think the Elise has to match all the safety regulations as it is a niche-built car. Never seen an NCAP figure for the Elise lol.

But yeah, the Mazda2, Ford Fiesta etc....for a small car :) Go build a Falcon around 1000kg whilst protecting all the occupants the way the governments want you to. :)

[digifish]

I just noticed Chrysler announced it will launch an electric sports-car in 2010...

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57182&vf=12

"The all electric sports car, dubbed the Dodge EV, would have a continuous driving range of just 240 to 320 kilometres but would have enough power under the hood to go from zero to 100 kilometres per hour in less than five seconds."

Now that would be more than enough range and performance for me, but I expect this one will be mega $$$

Thing about electric is that once you have enough batteries getting extra performance is easy, and a lot cheaper than doing it with internal combustion engines (you have 1 moving part vs 100's ).

digifish.

[Black Nugget]

I am really hoping that bio-fuels take off. I have not done a massive amount of research in to it but I think there are some massive benefits to it.

Most existing cars can run on it
It can be grown by third world countries thus generating an economy for them
The courdroy wearing yoghurt knitting hand wringers always shriek about farmers growing the crops for bio fuel instead of food crops...but heres the thing with bio fuel, it can be made from plant waste...banana skins, corn husks, plant leaves and stalks.
It can also be made from algea grown on lakes...so a lake is built, algea is grown for fuel...water is used for plants and live stock.


I agree that biofuel is a really good solution however there are major regulatory problems. With developing countries taking up production we also get developing country laws. At current situation it would not be sustainable with massive environmental impacts, just look at the problems being caused by ethanol production on rainforrests.

If we could bring biofuel onto the world stage overseen by a powerful regulatory body i think we could have a real solution.

[Wraith]

All interesting guys...

There was another similar thread not long ago.

My preference goes to electric powered vehicles over any fossil or bio fuel for the future.

However there are many electric technologies out there and they have their disadvantages as already mentioned, my vote goes to the still 'not fully developed' hydrogen cell/electric powerplant route !

It offers the best of all Worlds, in terms of range/indurance, performance, zero impact on the enviroment as it has zero pollution output and a limitless supply of hydrogen means it'll never have a resource supply problem...

It's main problem at present is cost...however if adopted widely the costs would dramatically drop.

Full reasearch and use of this has been going on in Scandanavia - think it is - for quite a number of years now with outstanding results.

It does have other disadvatages, one being safety issues with the high pressure hydrogen fuel cells, but I'm sure future innovations and technology can solve these problems.

I do believe/predict electric powered vehicles of one sort or another will prevail over internal combustion powered vehicles in the future...

[digifish]

All interesting guys...

There was another similar thread not long ago.

...

I do believe/predict electric powered vehicles of one sort or another will prevail over internal combustion powered vehicles in the future...

There is also the added cost of maintenance of any internal combustion engine, an EV would just need a battery pack replaced every 5-10? years and the usual brake pads & rotors. So you do away with...

1. Oil changes (and the waste oil + filter)
2. Spark plugs
3. Air filters

If the braking system is regenerative you will also dramatically reduce

4. Pad and rotor replacement

An EV would be able to monitor the condition of all it's vital systems and let you know when and where trouble is developing. For example, if a motor is drawing more current than the rest (or out of spec) then you can be alerted. I can't help being skeptical about internal combustion, since there are huge vested interests in seeing it continue. Once battery cars are the norm, the barrier to entry as a car manufacturer also dramatically decreases, since the engine and drive-trains are one of the most technically difficult and costly parts to develop with new cars.

As we have all seen, electrical things are easy to mass-produce and so very cheap in the long-run.

digifish

[Wraith]

Correct ^^^^

With regards to hydrogen cell/electric power plants I've mentioned - there are NO BATTERIES !!!

So even less maintanance and far less weight to the vehicles, with the absence of heavy battery packs...

And they are more powerful and have far greater range than any battery powered electric vehicles, you would have no problems at all building a hydrogen cell/electric powered supercar 'today with current technology' that would match or beat any internal combustion powered vehicle in terms of performance, it would weight alot less and would produce ZERO emmisions !!!

If innovated and evolved further, IMHO they are the ultimate answer for the long term future...

[digifish]

...Ah you are talking about fuel-cell cars.

digifish

[Wraith]

...Ah you are talking about fuel-cell cars.

digifish

Yes, 'hydrogen fuel cell' delivers the fuel required for the production of electricity and that then powers the 'electric motor/s' :)

There's a wealth of information on it and how it all works and there's even some documentaries I've seen on SBS showing its progress in either Scandanavia or Iceland (can't remember exactly which Country it is) where they've had the entire Country' public transport grid on this technology for a number of years now and the rest of the World is taking notes...

[rjastra]

That Dodge EV is just another version of the electric Elise (Tesla) I think you will find :)

Manufacturers (except Honda and its Clarity) seem to be shying away from fuelcells. The technology itself is very expensive and the hydrogen infrastructure isn't really there yet.

In fact the Clarity is quite complex as it also has a lithium ion battery pack to suppliment the fuelcell. They aren't a simply machine by any stretch of the imagination

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[rjastra]

Yeah I don't think the Elise has to match all the safety regulations as it is a niche-built car. Never seen an NCAP figure for the Elise lol.


Its sold worldwide... and more importantly the USA. It passes all required crash tests in all countries :)

[bornwild]

No, see some cars are excluded from having to pass all tests and can still be sold...like for example, the Caterham...or Gallardo, Murcielago, Ferrari F430...etc.

Ah and electric motors need maintenance also...what happens when the coil goes balls up?

[rjastra]

No, see some cars are excluded from having to pass all tests and can still be sold...like for example, the Caterham...or Gallardo, Murcielago, Ferrari F430...etc.


Easy enough to check... just look at the compliance plate and look for ADR 69, 72 and 73. If so, then the car passes all crash ADRS.

I also think you will find that these manufacturers can submit crash test results from equivalent overseas assessments to show compliance with the ADRS.

You assertion that the above cars have never been crash tested and therefore do not comply is totally incorrect :)

[Wraith]

That Dodge EV is just another version of the electric Elise (Tesla) I think you will find :)

Manufacturers (except Honda and its Clarity) seem to be shying away from fuelcells. The technology itself is very expensive and the hydrogen infrastructure isn't really there yet.

In fact the Clarity is quite complex as it also has a lithium ion battery pack to suppliment the fuelcell. They aren't a simply machine by any stretch of the imagination

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

True, hence why I suggested good or excellent 'long term' future prospect...

All things start that way, but eventually technology and experience build from tiny beginnings :)

Hydrogen fuel cell/electric powered technology has too many advantages to it, to be ignored or totally abandoned, we won't know for quite some time yet, but I'm willing to bet we'll see it adopted in the future some time, especially from the results already obtained from its use to date :)

[bornwild]

Easy enough to check... just look at the compliance plate and look for ADR 69, 72 and 73. If so, then the car passes all crash ADRS.

I also think you will find that these manufacturers can submit crash test results from equivalent overseas assessments to show compliance with the ADRS.

You assertion that the above cars have never been crash tested and therefore do not comply is totally incorrect :)

No, what I said is they do not have to pass all tests. :)

I know they do not because I know that the ADR states a minimum bonnet height for vehicles that are to be sold in AUS. Nor Gallardo nor the Murcielago do not meet this requirement.

These cars are niche cars and as such are allowed to be sold in AUS without having to pass all the requirements.

[rjastra]

I know they do not because I know that the ADR states a minimum bonnet height for vehicles that are to be sold in AUS. Nor Gallardo nor the Murcielago do not meet this requirement.


Knock yourself out... :)

We've been harmonising our ADRS with ECE and DOT regulations for the last 10 yrs. Basically, if the vehicle passes ECE design rules it will most likely pass ADRS (emissions and crash tests). Therefore the vehicle in question doesn't need to be crashed here!

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_online.aspx
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/files/ADR_Applicability_Summary-M-Group_July_2008.pdf
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/301901078B6D15D9CA2571CD0081CC58/$file/ADR4300FINALFRLI.pdf
and finally

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/55BAEF7E423AF0D4CA2570D700213FB0/$file/ADR+73-00++FINAL+FRLI+.pdf

[digifish]

Dodge EV BTW...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5oHjJKVpc

and others...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0fngvd0Xt8

[Vectracious]

True, hence why I suggested good or excellent 'long term' future prospect...

All things start that way, but eventually technology and experience build from tiny beginnings :)

Hydrogen fuel cell/electric powered technology has too many advantages to it, to be ignored or totally abandoned, we won't know for quite some time yet, but I'm willing to bet we'll see it adopted in the future some time, especially from the results already obtained from its use to date :)

I agree with Ange - fuel cells would be the way to go - we've been using them for years and years (Apollo missions) so know a lot about them - we just need to get over the distribution and storage problems with H2

[digifish]

More on the Volt...

http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/News/A+Volt+from+the+blue.html?open&fullarticle=yes

I wonder what the reduced demand on fuel will do to liquid fuel prices?

digifish

[Wraith]

More on the Volt...

http://www.wheelsmag.com.au/News/A+Volt+from+the+blue.html?open&fullarticle=yes

I wonder what the reduced demand on fuel will do to liquid fuel prices?

digifish

Drop of course, if electric powered vehicles takes off in a big way...

I'm more interested in what will happen to the price of current internal combustion powered vehicles ???

In 2030 say for eg. will I finally be able to buy a V12 petrol powered Ferrari Enzo or similar for the same price as a Viva costs ATM ???

[rjastra]

Drop of course, if electric powered vehicles takes off in a big way...

I'm more interested in what will happen to the price of current internal combustion powered vehicles ???

In 2030 say for eg. will I finally be able to buy a V12 petrol powered Ferrari Enzo or similar for the same price as a Viva costs ATM ???


Well if you use your logic... reduction in oil demand and therefore prices would make petrol cheaper ... no? So, you would assume that petrol powered cars would end up costing about the same as the then current hybrids, electric etc cars.

Its interesting the effect alternate fuels have on food prices. We know that biofuels in the USA have increased prices of corn products. Well, a large percentage of current hydrogen production goes towards fertiliser manufacture. hmmm....

We don't realise how closely fuel and food manufacure are related!!

[dieselhead]

just wondering if the resurgence of electric vehicles marketing bs has anything to do with recent US gov talk about 25 billion bucks grant...

[digifish]

Drop of course, if electric powered vehicles takes off in a big way...

I'm more interested in what will happen to the price of current internal combustion powered vehicles ???

In 2030 say for eg. will I finally be able to buy a V12 petrol powered Ferrari Enzo or similar for the same price as a Viva costs ATM ???

I suspect collectible cars will always remain collectible...but driving one on the public roads may be viewed the same as smoking in a restaurant is viewed now :)

Cars like our Astra's etc are surely to plummet spectacularly as the new technology takes hold.

digifish

[ASTRAY]

how about people look under their own bonnets to discover the answer for electric cars...
at your altenator to be precise... what does it do? it produces electricity and sends it to your battery to keep your electronic gadgets going, including your engine via spark plugs etc yada yada yada,,,
all you would need is a battery that could hold say 10-15mins of enough power to accellerate the elec motor of your car, once you are moving you are creating more charge, the stored power would be enough to cope with the non-recharging times of traffic lights etc.
have an electric motor attached to one or 2 of your wheels (all 4 if needed) and that would generate enough power to store in your battery/s.

i still say if we head for the plug in recharge idea the power grids will not be able to cope with demand and electricity prices will soar.
same with water based fuel, water prices will soar.
solar power is the way ahead, the only truly sustainable fuel. used along with my idea above, i dont think we could go wrong. :D

[digifish]

I just noticed there are electric dirt bikes too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx29I-JIgIA

and road-bikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytkuoA0edkg

and drag-bikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHtAkM3CYLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c8eLH8x_-Y

[Dave]

One prob with hydro, Where's the energy comeing from to creat it in the first place, And once its created with present means, It hold's less energy then was used to create it.


Atm There is no real way of creating hydrogen without useing energy, I read an artical on some form of algey that secretes hydro, But that was as far as it went.

So far that i know of you can create it with electrolasis, or with a chemical reation. There's no way of mineing it like petrol with a huge drinking straw in the ground.

Unless we have massive solar or wind farms purely for hydro production, it will just polute the same if not more then we already are.

[Vectracious]

how about people look under their own bonnets to discover the answer for electric cars...
at your altenator to be precise... what does it do? it produces electricity and sends it to your battery to keep your electronic gadgets going, including your engine via spark plugs etc yada yada yada,,,
all you would need is a battery that could hold say 10-15mins of enough power to accellerate the elec motor of your car, once you are moving you are creating more charge, the stored power would be enough to cope with the non-recharging times of traffic lights etc.
have an electric motor attached to one or 2 of your wheels (all 4 if needed) and that would generate enough power to store in your battery/s.


The only problem with that theory is that the amount of power required to move the car + pull against the drag of the generators would be greater than the amount of charge generated to keep the battery charged - so you would run out of power quite quickly - because the drag from the generators is quite big.

Otherwise you would have just invented a form of perpetual motion which means you would become a bazillion squillionaire. ;)

[glider]

The only problem with that theory is that the amount of power required to move the car + pull against the drag of the generators would be greater than the amount of charge generated to keep the battery charged - so you would run out of power quite quickly - because the drag from the generators is quite big.

Otherwise you would have just invented a form of perpetual motion which means you would become a bazillion squillionaire. ;)

energy is lost to heat and sound, as a result the power output from the kinetic energy will be diminished

[Wraith]

Otherwise you would have just invented a form of perpetual motion which means you would become a bazillion squillionaire. ;)

LOL don't think so...hardly a new idea.

This idea/concept is as old as electric motors and generators themselves :)

I see no ones brought up 'cold fusion' yet :)

[Vectracious]

LOL don't think so...hardly a new idea.

This idea/concept is as old as electric motors and generators themselves :)

I see no ones brought up 'cold fusion' yet :)

well everyones chasing it but no-ones done it

unless the oil companies have killed anyone thats got close - like all those people that created cars that run on water....

[digifish]

Hyundai says it will be the first automotive manufacturer to offer new electric cars for sale in any volume in New Zealand.

Hyundai says it will be the first automotive manufacturer to offer new electric cars for sale in any volume in New Zealand.
Hyundai said on Friday its first fully electric, plug-in version of the Getz, had been sold for delivery in November.
Retrofitting cars by removing the petrol engine and fitting batteries and an electric motor would be done in this country.
The electric Getz had a top speed of 120kmh, with a range of 120km on a single charge with a fast charge extending the range for a day's running to about 200km.
The project was a collaboration with engineer Ross Blade, who developed the Getz retro-fit electric car. He would be setting up a production facility based around a projected sales base of more than 200 vehicles a year.

-------------

This is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to see, non-traditional companies starting to get into the act.

http://www.bev.com.au/

[digifish]

I have thought of one issue, the Government will need to find another source of tax revenue...

Some thoughts from a blogger...

"The transition to solid-state cars represents a paradigm shift for the automobile. Anytime that happens (through historical product development life cycles) there has been both chaos and opportunity; Not all the guys who made horse drawn buggies survived to make cars, and not all the present auto manufacturers will survive to produce electric vehicles. While new product development is in the blood of automobile design, new technology implementation is done very carefully and slowly, which is something of a detriment during periods of rapid change regardless of their deep pockets. Startups like Tesla can leverage the lower barrier of entry in electric vehicles (no engines and transmissions which represent the largest expense related to new vehicle design) to gain entry into specific segments. They'll start in areas where the margins are high and gradually branch out via technology licensing or by private equity.

The value proposition offered by electrical vehicles is so dramatic and so disruptive (although it is an evolutionary technology) that the rate at which consumers embrace these products will catch the oil companies and oil distribution networks off guard. A reduction in gasoline by 5% will produce a corresponding reduction of service stations by 5% in a perfectly elastic market. That's an economic way of saying that as oil consumption in decreases so will the number of gas stations. Furthermore, a 5% reduction will lower the demand for oil and thus reduce the price, however, once the electric cat is out of the bag, the price of oil would have to drop to ~ $10 a barrel in order to compete with electricity. So once it starts, and it is starting, it isn't going to stop. And I don't know about you, but I could go the rest of my life without changing oil again no problem."

...and so once the oil consumption starts to fall dramatically the gov will be out ~$0.80/litre in taxes, that's a lot of revenue.

[Vectracious]

...and so once the oil consumption starts to fall dramatically the gov will be out ~$0.80/litre in taxes, that's a lot of revenue.

I wonder how much Electricity rates per kWh will go up?

[Wraith]

well everyones chasing it but no-ones done it

unless the oil companies have killed anyone thats got close - like all those people that created cars that run on water....

I'd say there very close to, or have already figured it out and done it - but it's all under wraps ;)

Your are correct about internal combustion engines that run on water, the obvious technological wonder there being the 'converter' that can split water into its separate hydrogen and oxygen (oxide in this case) atoms or parts.

And yes it's been shelved and I've also heard of the assassinations involved with this technology - maybe your righht and that's why cold fusion remains a myth ;)

Only time will tell/reveal all, it's going to be a technological marvel of a World sometime deep in the future :)

[ASTRAY]

The only problem with that theory is that the amount of power required to move the car + pull against the drag of the generators would be greater than the amount of charge generated to keep the battery charged - so you would run out of power quite quickly - because the drag from the generators is quite big.

Otherwise you would have just invented a form of perpetual motion which means you would become a bazillion squillionaire. ;)

im no brain or scientist etc, but if you were to run a "charging motor" on each of 3 of 4 wheels, the 4th wheel being hooked up to the drive motor...
wouldnt the 3 charging motors be able to supply enough charge to create enough supply to get the car going?
eg have clutches on the 3 charging motors (fixing drag problem), once the car is going say 60km it has momentum in its favour, engage the charging motors and charging commences.
once a certain speed is reached, say 100km, the charging would be higher than the usage, creating enough stored power for the next take off.
i still think this is possible, but am honestly happy to be proven wrong.
haha at bazillion squillionaire, i wouldnt have enough money to make a prototype, let alone patent it etc.
anyone rich on here? we can go halves lol :dance:
hell, id be happy with a house on a nice block of land and a good supply of these cars. :D

[Dave]

wind resistance road incline etc, there's a whole big list why that wont work, Next time your driveing at 100kmh, take ya foot of the go pedal and put the clutch in, watch how fast you slow down, now to simulate the drag the charging motor's would create slightly touch the brakes.

In a perfect world where there were no such rules etc, and in a vacume it may just work :P

[Vectracious]

im no brain or scientist etc, but if you were to run a "charging motor" on each of 3 of 4 wheels, the 4th wheel being hooked up to the drive motor...
wouldnt the 3 charging motors be able to supply enough charge to create enough supply to get the car going?
eg have clutches on the 3 charging motors (fixing drag problem), once the car is going say 60km it has momentum in its favour, engage the charging motors and charging commences.
once a certain speed is reached, say 100km, the charging would be higher than the usage, creating enough stored power for the next take off.
i still think this is possible, but am honestly happy to be proven wrong.
haha at bazillion squillionaire, i wouldnt have enough money to make a prototype, let alone patent it etc.
anyone rich on here? we can go halves lol :dance:
hell, id be happy with a house on a nice block of land and a good supply of these cars. :D

nah - i dont think anything that has been invented so far is that efficient in converting kinetic energy to electical energy.

[bornwild]

Otherwise you would have just invented a form of perpetual motion which means you would become a bazillion squillionaire. ;)

I was just going to say that...yours would be a PMM3

Dude, it's impossible to create a positive total of energy. The amount of total energy invested into something will always be larger than the energy out.

[ASTRAY]

I was just going to say that...yours would be a PMM3

Dude, it's impossible to create a positive total of energy. The amount of total energy invested into something will always be larger than the energy out.
that is true, but having 3 engines to charge and only one using the charge, im sure that would more than make up for it.
i dunno guys, i still think its possible... not a certainty, but perhaps possible...

[bornwild]

Ok look. Let's do simple math here. Let's say you drive a 1400kg Astra driven by your 4 electric motors. Now, I've noticed on my Astra that when I put it in neutral at 100km/h it retards about 5kph every 2s(and that's optimistic). Now using that thought, it means my engine needs to supply about 1kN of force to keep the car going straight at 100km/h level road.

This, if you have 17" rims on your car equates to about 63kW of power. You'd need a 63kW electric engine. That in itself is not a problem, since inwheel electric motors exist...in fact there was a mini that had 4x160bhp electric motors in each wheel!!! But generating that much electricity is quite a problem.

See if you were to engage the 'generator mode' of those inwheel motors it would be like slamming on the brakes(and even then they wouldn't generate enough electricity)...quite hard. In effect, the generators are brakes. They eliminate the need for brakes.

Your idea is a nice one, very thoughtful for someone without a science/engineering background.

ps. Here (http://www.imdllc.com/63kw.html) is an example of a dedicated 63kW electric generator. They're massive.

[ASTRAY]

Ok look. Let's do simple math here. Let's say you drive a 1400kg Astra driven by your 4 electric motors. Now, I've noticed on my Astra that when I put it in neutral at 100km/h it retards about 5kph every 2s(and that's optimistic). Now using that thought, it means my engine needs to supply about 1kN of force to keep the car going straight at 100km/h level road.

This, if you have 17" rims on your car equates to about 63kW of power. You'd need a 63kW electric engine. That in itself is not a problem, since inwheel electric motors exist...in fact there was a mini that had 4x160bhp electric motors in each wheel!!! But generating that much electricity is quite a problem.

See if you were to engage the 'generator mode' of those inwheel motors it would be like slamming on the brakes(and even then they wouldn't generate enough electricity)...quite hard. In effect, the generators are brakes. They eliminate the need for brakes.

Your idea is a nice one, very thoughtful for someone without a science/engineering background.

ps. Here (http://www.imdllc.com/63kw.html) is an example of a dedicated 63kW electric generator. They're massive.

no problems, and thanks for the explanation. just thought it was worth a suggestion.
then electric saws i use at work have brakes on them, when you turn the saw off it slows the blade down quicker, to reduce chance of injury.

just a thought, could you have gears in the motors so it could choose the best gear for the motor to engage in to suit the speed your doing??? perhaps reducing the shock to the motors?

[bornwild]

Yeah of course, anything with a shaft coming out of it can have a gearbox....absolutely :)

And yeah just a note, even though motors and generators are the 'same thing'. They're really not...they can only be good at one or the other due to mechanical limitations and just the principle of work.

[ASTRAY]

Yeah of course, anything with a shaft coming out of it can have a gearbox....absolutely :)

And yeah just a note, even though motors and generators are the 'same thing'. They're really not...they can only be good at one or the other due to mechanical limitations and just the principle of work.

yeah i understand them not really being the same, as i suggested, the 3 charging wheels would be for charging only.
and only 1 drive wheel.
i wasnt suggesting the 3 charging motors work as driving motors too, i mean if people are going to be using electricity/batteries to fuel their cars, then why not get some free "fuel" while your at it lol. even if its not enough to fully power your car, an extra 100 or so kms distance would help.

[bornwild]

Oh no, they'd just slow you down. As I said, the effect on the car whilst they're charging would be the same as if you slammed the brakes. :)

[ASTRAY]

Oh no, they'd just slow you down. As I said, the effect on the car whilst they're charging would be the same as if you slammed the brakes. :)

you seem to know a bit, how many rpms would you think say a 17in wheel would be doing at 100kms? just curious...

[bornwild]

100km/h = 27.777m/s

RPM = (27.77 / 17") * 60/2pi = 614.31rpm

Thats a rough estimate...I didn't include tyre thickness

[Dave]

If you want free energy to run your car etc, Im not saying absolutly free, But free to a point because it takes energy to make energy. Get ya self some solar cells or wind turbines, or if youve got a geo thermal vent in ya back yard hook ya self up a steam turbine :p

The solar cells over there usefull life span will return to you the energy it took to manufacture them and then some.

Im pretty sure the turbine stand's a chance aswell, But mayb not with the metal refinenment etc.

Or alternativly, creat your own methane / natural gas from decomposing matter, Build a device to collect it, and get ya self a fuel maker and compress and store in a liquid form.

But then you still have the prob of sourceing your plant/fecal matter for this.

Or lol, you could try ya hand at makeing your own bio fuel. Get self a farm, plant some crop's etc, But im not to sure If at this point in time it takes more energy to creat it then it yields yet again.

Hehe and last but not least, If youve got your self a large body of moveing water that never stop's all year around, build ya self a water mill ;)

On that note there was an interesting read on under water current generater's and some wacky looking wind turbine things that you bolt to the sea bed and the water current's spin them kinda cool.


Im sure there is limitles way's of creating your own energy with a littl effort on your part, and for far cheaper then you pay for it atm. But you haft to be willing to put in the effort.

There was a artical on some home running of the grid that in summer creates its own energy from solar cell's / wind turbine, and what they dont use get's put into hydro creation, its stored in a liquid from, then come winter when there's little sun the hydro is used with a fuel cell to power the home. i gues if you had a fuel cell car, and the up front cash to set it up, you could plaster your roof with cell's and make hydro all day long and store it for when you need it.

[rjastra]

For Australia I think Hyundai's upcoming LPG/Hybrid is a sure winner.

Engine is tuned for LPG only (more efficient than the systems used by Ford/Holden) and it is backed up by hybrid technology

Apparently they are looking at 5L/100km. If you do the maths it costs 1/2 as much to run per 100kms than the Prius! Seriously cheap motoring that uses something we have HEAPS of (LPG).

Figures of $500/15000km versus $1000/15000km for the Prius.

[Wraith]

For Australia I think Hyundai's upcoming LPG/Hybrid is a sure winner.

Engine is tuned for LPG only (more efficient than the systems used by Ford/Holden) and it is backed up by hybrid technology

Apparently they are looking at 5L/100km. If you do the maths it costs 1/2 as much to run per 100kms than the Prius! Seriously cheap motoring that uses something we have HEAPS of (LPG).

Figures of $500/15000km versus $1000/15000km for the Prius.

Sounds good, I'm a fan of modern LPG running systems and have mentioned it before in other threads that it has lots of potential for performance applications as well, not that we're really concerned with that here, it's all about efficiency and clean running :)

Any more info on this Hyundai - what's it look like, price range etc.

[bornwild]

I seriously don't understand why they don't build turbocharged LPG cars...now that would be something

[Wraith]

I seriously don't understand why they don't build turbocharged LPG cars...now that would be something

Agree, sure would - probably because of the high rate of consumption that would have...range/endurance would be limited...

I know of one modified V8 early model Commodore (VK with 5.0ltr V8) which has been built to run specifically on LPG, it run 12sec 1/4 miles without forced induction and the engine mods are mild not wild, this thing is totally streetable and has a smooth, not lumpy idle !!!

So with larger displacement and more modern engines, you wouldn't even need forced induction for high performance using LPG :)

[rjastra]

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53358

[glider]

I daresay if marketed correctly they would sell like hotcakes