140kW Diesel Coming to Astra near you

[bornwild]

Well, looks like the next-gen Astra will be getting some 140kW of Diesel love.

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/09/opel-insignia-gets-two-new-turbo.html

:D

[collokid]

next astra??? am i missing something? wasnt that the insignia?

[bornwild]

I think it's safe to assume that this engine will be available in the Astra also...The Astra and Insignia share all the engines except the 6-cylinder powerplants.

[sooty]

Well, looks like the next-gen Astra will be getting some 140kW of Diesel love.

:D

Hmmm...that with a greenbox :think: ;)

[lampshade]

I tell ya it's the way to go, loads of torque and a smoke screen Bond would be proud of:D

[bornwild]

Yeap and I'm guessing the 2nd gen of greenboxes will be able to pull a sweet 170-180kW out of this new twin-turbo diesel......and about 500Nm perhaps? Sounds good to me :D:D

[rjastra]

It very much depends if Opel etc want to keep the twin turbo diesel for its top line Insignia models. If so, I can't see it appearing in an Astra model for quite awhile.

[Calibrated]

It very much depends if Opel etc want to keep the twin turbo diesel for its top line Insignia models. If so, I can't see it appearing in an Astra model for quite awhile.
another awesome post from captain negative

i can't see any reason why they wouldnt drop one into the next gen astra. would ba a major selling point. for those wanting something small/cheaper than the insignia, with serious power, and frugal fuel consumption.

[collokid]

ahhhh.... so its like the astra/vectra sharing engines.... gotcha

[dieselhead]

I was expecting more than 140kW from the twin turbo diesel to be honest... That's pretty much where my engine is right now. If the trend is confirmed again, the new Astra might be a bit heavier than the H, too. A more complex engine, due to the second turbocharger, might prove difficult to tune. Hope I'm wrong, but have a look at the Alpina D3 with its 157 kW: the gain is only 7 kW over the stock 123d SE. Why not crank it up to 185 kW Alpina, why?

Don't get me wrong, I really believe that a new Astra with the twin turbo diesel would be a really great car. Is just that I need more performance from my next car and that's why I will downsize while getting more power. I'm thinking MiTo GTA, 172kW in a 1,150kg car. Unfortunately that means back to petrol... unless Holden brings over the new Insignia wagon with a twin turbo 3.0 diesel and AWD for $50k and some change! So much about downsizing, ha? :)

[bornwild]

You have to realise Alpina and BMW have special agreements which restrict Alpina from creating cars which would steal too much of BMWs marketshare. Get what I mean?

I reckon the Astra TTD will have plentyyy of tuning potential...

[dieselhead]

you're right, just found the P-tronic tuning box that takes the 123d to 194 kW, meaning a 29% gain from 150 kW!! torque goes up to 515 Nm from 400, even more gain there. bloody hell, that's V8 torque territory.
that means tuning the Astra's to 180 kW is quite possible, isn't it? hm...

[Wraith]

Yeap and I'm guessing the 2nd gen of greenboxes will be able to pull a sweet 170-180kW out of this new twin-turbo diesel......and about 500Nm perhaps? Sounds good to me :D:D

' If ' that is indeed the case, it sounds good to me too !!!

I've always said that when or if turbo oilers of around 2.0-2.5ltr displacement can push close or up to 200kw then I'm a fan and will consider getting one as an everyday vehicle to replace my Calibra...

That would make the perfect car compliment in my case, hi-power 4 and 8 pot petrol forced inducted weekend/pride n joy vehicles and daily driver 'hi power' TD :)

Just gotta get used to leaving black smoke plumes in peoples faces :D

[Wraith]

I was expecting more than 140kW from the twin turbo diesel to be honest... That's pretty much where my engine is right now. If the trend is confirmed again, the new Astra might be a bit heavier than the H, too. A more complex engine, due to the second turbocharger, might prove difficult to tune. Hope I'm wrong, but have a look at the Alpina D3 with its 157 kW: the gain is only 7 kW over the stock 123d SE. Why not crank it up to 185 kW Alpina, why?

Don't get me wrong, I really believe that a new Astra with the twin turbo diesel would be a really great car. Is just that I need more performance from my next car and that's why I will downsize while getting more power. I'm thinking MiTo GTA, 172kW in a 1,150kg car. Unfortunately that means back to petrol... unless Holden brings over the new Insignia wagon with a twin turbo 3.0 diesel and AWD for $50k and some change! So much about downsizing, ha? :)

What you've suggested above is a good choice, if your chasing more performance and can get it with a 'fairly efficient' petrol turbo/vehicle combination - why not :)

On the other hand, it looks like we will be seeing alot more larger displacement TD engine powered vehicles in the future, as long as they can improve the technology to extract more power (as in kw/hp capability) from the TD engines, the bigger size/weight of the vehicles won't matter much as the TD's have the torque outputs to deal with that...

[rjastra]

another awesome post from captain negative

i can't see any reason why they wouldnt drop one into the next gen astra. would ba a major selling point. for those wanting something small/cheaper than the insignia, with serious power, and frugal fuel consumption.

Call me captain realism ;)
I am too old to fall for the "ohhh, they could make it and I would buy if they did" routine.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the possibility of shoe-horning the 2.8L V6 turbo out of the Insignia into an Astra? That sounds exciting... a 140kw diesel does not.

I'm with dieselhead... the new batch of highpowered small capacity turbo PETROL hothatches sound more exciting. Especially if you like cars that handle. No matter how powerful these bloody diesels get they will always lump you with 80-100kg MORE over the front axle. No good for handling what so ever in a FWD car.

Even the Megane 175 CDI (probably the best fwd diesel hot hatch around) can't quite pull it off.

As an aside... there is a LPG kit for the Megane 225. Power AND low running costs

[bornwild]

Guys, leave your old stereotypes of diesel cars behind.

You think diesels leave black plumes behind? Read this (http://www.worldcarfans.com/1070316.001/wcf-test-drive-bmw-335d).
http://img.worldcarfans.com/US/2007/3/16/1070316.001/1070316.001.Mini12L.jpg

Think diesels are front-end heavy?? That's rubbish...All new diesel engines being developed have an aluminium block and cast iron bearings and some other components are cast iron also. This gives them maybe 20-30kg more at the front end. To compensate for this manufacturers usually put up a better/stiffer suspension combo. And the CDTi Astra is the perfect example....it drives quite a lot better than the standard 1.8 astra even though it's 50 or so kgs heavier.(which is not all due to the engine, the CDTi has extra equipment and chassis components also)

I hate nothing more than old stereotyping....

[Ice]

Agreed ! leave the stereotypes behind.....Australia is finally catching up to the rest of Europe.

mmmm 335d

[digifish]

Agreed ! leave the stereotypes behind.....Australia is finally catching up to the rest of Europe.

mmmm 335d

The current CDTi should have convinced everyone of that surely?

digifish

[Calibrated]

The current CDTi should have convinced everyone of that surely?

digifish
convinced me. if only holden brought the 3dr CDTi or the 888

[deviant]

Shirley a 888 is only a remap and a few underbody components from the SRI-T?

mmm 335D...if only they were not so stupidly expensive!!!!!

[bornwild]

He meant the 888 diesel version....it's a 1.9CDTi tuned...Fifth Gear tested them and it turned out to be only 1 or 2s slower than the VXR around the track.....which is quite an achievement.

[bornwild]

you're right, just found the P-tronic tuning box that takes the 123d to 194 kW, meaning a 29% gain from 150 kW!! torque goes up to 515 Nm from 400, even more gain there. bloody hell, that's V8 torque territory.
that means tuning the Astra's to 180 kW is quite possible, isn't it? hm...

Imagine a 500Nm, 180kW Diesel Astra returning fuel figures of 6L/100km

I need new undies :o

[deviant]

He meant the 888 diesel version....it's a 1.9CDTi tuned...Fifth Gear tested them and it turned out to be only 1 or 2s slower than the VXR around the track.....which is quite an achievement.

Thats what I meant...sorry..Is'nt the 888 diesel a remapped diesel with SRi-T underbody components to handle the stopping and cornering?

[rjastra]

Guys, leave your old stereotypes of diesel cars behind.

Think diesels are front-end heavy??
I hate nothing more than old stereotyping....

Go do some research (yet again), I did. Focus, Megane, BMW 120d... they are 70-80kg MORE than the equivalent spec petrol models.

[Wraith]

if only holden brought the 3dr CDTi

That's something I've mentioned numerous times...

GMH make you wonder sometimes :rolleyes:

They would've definitely multiplied sales of the AH TD's if they'd brought in the 3 door variant, just the basic model is all that would be needed, no need for the 888, it would be in a niche segment and it would sell even less than the VXR's poor sales record...

[bornwild]

Go do some research (yet again), I did. Focus, Megane, BMW 120d... they are 70-80kg MORE than the equivalent spec petrol models.

I couldn't do it on the Astra since the site doesn't have any masses of the vehicles. They seem to have taken it down. And I was talking about the Astra...:cool:

And the engine alone accounts for only about 20% of that extra mass. There is the insulation, chassis strengthening extra equipment you get(that's the case in the Astra). So yeah...engine does not account for much of that weight...and the extra weight is not focused at the front.

[rjastra]

And the engine alone accounts for only about 20% of that extra mass. There is the insulation, chassis strengthening extra equipment you get(that's the case in the Astra). So yeah...engine does not account for much of that weight...and the extra weight is not focused at the front.

Astra gains 90kg when specced with the 1.9diesel over the 1.8VVT engine

I specifically chose vehicles of the same spec to eliminate equipment differences.

On a similar note (i suppose)... http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57160&s_rid=smh:rainbowstrip:content2

Golf VI + 1.4L twincharger petrol + dsg = 6L/100km. Or very close to Astra CDTI economy.

[Wraith]

I specifically chose vehicles of the same spec to eliminate equipment differences.

On a similar note (i suppose)... http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57160&s_rid=smh:rainbowstrip:content2

Golf VI + 1.4L twincharger petrol + dsg = 6L/100km. Or very close to Astra CDTI economy.

That's an awesome consumption figure, since that engine actually produces more than the quoted 125kw, seen a couple on the dyno on the car show and one pumped out 125kw at the wheels...

VW are getting amazing fuel burn figures with their latest 2.0 TFSI engine also, the TTS 200kw version with DSG gets combined 7.9ltr/100km and that's with AWD too !!!...would be same/similar for the S3.

[bornwild]

Have you guys ever driven a modern turbo-intercooled diesel?

[Wraith]

Have you guys ever driven a modern turbo-intercooled diesel?

Most modern I've driven is the current TD AH Astra, so not sure if that fits the modern turbo-intercooled diesel your referring to ???

Wrote about that one aaaaages ago - sorry BW but simply not impressed...

All these newer bigger and more powerful ones though are getting interesting :)

[rjastra]

Have you guys ever driven a modern turbo-intercooled diesel?

Yep (AH CDTI manual)... impressive midrange Nms... but no more so than an equivalent 2L turbo petrol engine ;)

The Astra engine is a rattly old thing as well.

Bornwild... ever driven a modern turbo 2L petrol car like a Golf Gti, Megane 225 etc (the Astra SRiT is a bit old hat in comparison)

[bornwild]

Not impressed with the performance of the Astra CDTi for the money you pay for it? If you could name a quicker car in the same class for the same money, please do so :)

[bornwild]

Yep (AH CDTI manual)... impressive midrange Nms... but no more so than an equivalent 2L turbo petrol engine ;)

The Astra engine is a rattly old thing as well.

Bornwild... ever driven a modern turbo 2L petrol car like a Golf Gti, Megane 225 etc (the Astra SRiT is a bit old hat in comparison)

Yeap, driven a Golf GTi just 2 weeks ago(with the DSG) and doesn't really feel as powerful as the Astra CDTi to be honest. There was 4 of us in the car and it was struggling at uphill acceleration somewhat. And the fuel figure for my trip was awful...around 11l/100km and I was driving like a nanny.

Pretty impressed with the driving dynamics though...but for $43k compared to the Astra CDTi's $27k...the Astra shits all over it. Add the greenbox to the Astra and you'll be kicking some GTi arse.(The Astra CDTi shits all over most the hot hatches when comparing bang-for-buck)

[bornwild]

The Astra CDTi engine is actually very quiet...don't know what Astra you were sitting in. I drove a Focus TDCi and the Golf TDi and both had way more noise intrusion in the cabin than the Astra..so yeah Astra is pretty bloody good.

[sooty]

lol...this always happens.
Everytime someone mentions a diesel there's petrol loving keyboard warriors to defame them.:rolleyes:

[Wraith]

Not impressed with the performance of the Astra CDTi for the money you pay for it? If you could name a quicker car in the same class for the same money, please do so :)

It's not just about the quickness of the thing in my case anyway...not that that's a talking point for the CDTi stock, it's not that quick, it's just all that torque seat of the pants sensation that makes you think it's quick !

Besides that, I didn't like the way the thing sounded, the way it ran out of breath at just over 2k rpm, the smoke plume behind me and the way that the car itself, (the AH CDTi) was poorly equipped, the interior looked crap and cheap and that was to keep the purchase cost down because of the higher diesel engine cost...

[bornwild]

I know for a fact the Astra is bloody quick(only about .5s slower to 100 than the SRiT). The thing accelerated like no tomorrow all up to about 2500rpm. :)

The equipment is a different thing Ange....I'll probably be getting my Astra CDTi by March next year and already had a look at a couple of retrimmers. They can add bolstering to the seats too. They ask for $3000 to make some sports seats with leather and whatnot...

[Wraith]

lol...this always happens.
Everytime someone mentions a diesel there's petrol loving keyboard warriors to defame them.:rolleyes:

True, was going to mention that one myself above...

Bloody BW all the time LOL :)

I thought we were talking future 'better' TD offerings to come - that's something I think all of us would appreciate and welcome :)

[bornwild]

lol :D

Yeah anyway, so the TTD for the Insignia...can't wait on reviews. :)

[sooty]

Basically...as a stock motor (whether in the astra or the insignia) will be capable. Achieving reasonable acceleration and great fuel economy. If someone like DTUK can produce another greenbox for it giving similar percentage gains (ca. 170kw and 500nm) then it will be a great car for the daily driver with a heavy right foot :p
No-one is saying this is going to be a race car, just an unlikely competitor to some of the hot hatch segment :)

[collokid]

do you think the ttd would have the same problem that the liberty b4 had, ie the bad flat spot? or does being diesel make it different?

[bornwild]

I'm pretty sure the new turbo-designs avoid excessive turbo-lag...but yeah I mean, cars like the GTR still suffer from turbolag. You'd have to have 3-4 sequential turbochargers to 'completely' eliminate turbolag.

[Wraith]

Basically...as a stock motor (whether in the astra or the insignia) will be capable. Achieving reasonable acceleration and great fuel economy. If someone like DTUK can produce another greenbox for it giving similar percentage gains (ca. 170kw and 500nm) then it will be a great car for the daily driver with a heavy right foot :p
No-one is saying this is going to be a race car, just an unlikely competitor to some of the hot hatch segment :)

Agree, as I mentioned in my 1st posts on this thread, even I would seriously consider or look at something like that for an everyday car for myself ;)

[collokid]

na i dont mean turbo lag, i ment the flat spot in the torque curve when the 2nd turbo spools up... lol... oh i get it... the turbo lag of the 2nd turbo... niice

[Calibrated]

CDTi + greenbox = bye bye GTi. i've done it.
CDTi + Simota + Greenbox + Exhuast + FMIC = Bye Bye VXR.

while using buggerall fuel :)

[Wraith]

CDTi + greenbox = bye bye GTi. i've done it.
CDTi + Simota + Greenbox + Exhuast + FMIC = Bye Bye VXR.

while using buggerall fuel :)

What if you do similar tuning to the the petrol turbos ??? it would be bye bye oilers altogether right ;)

Although granted, the TD's will have much better consumption figures...but not exactly 'bugger all' :)

In terms of power/performance we've got to compare apples with apples, or stock vs stock, once we start modding, it becomes a totally different aspect and at the end of it all ATM TD's can't touch petrol turbos in that respect.

That's why as per thread topic, we look forward to better tech. TD's of the future...they should provide more, but petrol will also improve in terms of consumption - by then however both petrol and diesel might be moving over in favour of electric powerplants !

We've discussed this before too and it's a fact they can outperform both petrol and diesel and literally use FA fuel :)

Up goes the cost of household electricity though :doh: unless they adopt and use hydrogen cell technology :)

Still, would like to see where and how good TD or TTD engines evolve in the future...

[bornwild]

Ange, CDTi with greenbox and simota induction and nice wheels and bodykit will cost you $30k tops...GTi with any mod whatsoever will cost you $44k at least.

Plus, the CDTi will be consuming heaps less fuel. The equation is simple, really. :)

[Calibrated]

Ange, CDTi with greenbox and simota induction and nice wheels and bodykit will cost you $30k tops...GTi with any mod whatsoever will cost you $44k at least.

Plus, the CDTi will be consuming heaps less fuel. The equation is simple, really. :)
not brand new. they're 29k drive away new. but still significantly cheaper.

[bornwild]

They had $27k deals on them a few weeks back...driveaway ;) I can get a CDTi for $23k due to employee pricing. So for me it's an even much better deal :D

[dieselhead]

Said this before, got mine 20 months ago, OTR with 18" Pentas, for $30k, brand new. Tomorrow I could get it perhaps for $27k with the same wheels. Bloody new model back in January 2007, so discounting started at $29,990...
Add another $1k for Green Box and Simota and you get a $31k nasty hatch. How much for a GTI OTR?! Even a vanilla Golf Pacific with cloth, 16" and 101 kW 2.0 TDI would set you back $37k. Man, if you think the CDTi is noisy, try one of those :)

[rjastra]

Ange, CDTi with greenbox and simota induction and nice wheels and bodykit will cost you $30k tops...GTi with any mod whatsoever will cost you $44k at least.

Plus, the CDTi will be consuming heaps less fuel. The equation is simple, really. :)


But it doesn't have the handling, styling or interior of the $38500 Golf (or the resale!) ;)

If you wanted a cheap diesel hatch that handled I'd rather start with the Focus as a basis.

In the end there is only so much kW/Nm you can put through the front wheels. Especially in a car initially setup as a frugal city car (Focus/Astra/Golf standard diesels)

[bornwild]

The GTi is $43k on-road...Oh just get the Eibach pro kit and rear sway bar and you'll have better handling than the GTi

Driven the focus diesel...didn't like it. The engine has no aspirations and it's just a boring car.

[cbrmale]

Have you guys ever driven a modern turbo-intercooled diesel?

I did a lengthy drive in a AH TDi before buying my 2.2 SRi. It was too noisy and unrefined for my tastes, and the extra weight over the front wheels was quite noticeable compared to the SRi with similar suspension settings (albeit with wider and better quality tyres).

I later had a Peugeot turbo-diesel hire car in France, and while I loved its effortless performance, the noise and vibration slowly drove me up the wall. So I am more than glad the 2.2 was available when I bought my Astra.