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View Full Version : HSV boss pours cold water on hybrids - from drive.com.au 06/08



pred8r
30th July 2008, 07:40 PM
I figured this (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53914) would get lost somewhere in the internets pretty quickly, so I thought I'd post it here, for you to read, as it's spoken by someone we would assume knows his stuff.

Holden Special Vehicles boss Tom Walkinshaw claims most hybrids are less-efficient than petrol engines. Andrew Heasley and Richard Blackburn report.

http://images.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2008/06/20/walkinshaw-head_m_m_m.jpg
Tom Walkinshaw


Diesel cars, alternative powertrains and alternative bio-fuels are not the broad environmental panaceas they are made out to be, Holden Special Vehicles boss Tom Walkinshaw claims.

The performance car expert, whose company is investigating the idea of developing a diesel model (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53909)for its range of high-powered Holdens, claims most hybrids (http://www.drive.com.au/hybrid)are less fuel-efficient than regular petrol-powered vehicles.
Hybrid engines make sense on large commercial vehicles, less so on cars, he says.

"There's a lot of BS at the moment about hybrid cars. If you actually study the fuel consumption of most of the hybrids out there (they) are worse than a petrol-driven car. But it's a nice marketing thing.

''At best they're no better than anything with a conventional powertrain,'' he said.

The comments, made at a press conference to announce the limited edition, VE Commodore-based HSV W427 (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53885), put Walkinshaw at odds with HSV managing director Scott Grant, who regularly spruiked the advantages of hybrid technology in his former role as head of Lexus in Australia.
“Lexus also offers diesel variants, but its long-term view is that hybrid will prevail over all single-fuel sources,” Grant said at the launch of the GS450h in 2006.

In the past, Grant has also refused to rule out a hybrid HSV, while Holden recently announced it should have a hybrid Commodore on Australian roads by 2010.

But Walkinshaw believes diesels are a more logical solution, although he says governmental tax policy on fuel is critical to the environmental debate.

"At the moment you have the answer to fuel consumption by looking at diesel, but governments then charge extra taxes on it so they make that option really unavailable to the public because they chose to put a levy on the fuel.

"Goverments throughout the world have to sort themselves out: are they really serious about cutting down fuel consumption or are they just interested in raising tax?''

"At the moment there is a lot of stuff done under an environmental heading that's only just a veiled cloak for increasing tax revenues.

"Diesels will get you 30 per cent better fuel consumption so if they're interested in cutting down the consumption of fuel, then why not make that fuel the same tax levy as petrol? They don't.

''It's not a genuine attempt to solve the problem,'' he says.

As for so-called bio-fuels (such as ethanol or bio-diesel) derived from crops, their production method raises another set of problems, he says, including robbing poor countries of land for food production.

"I don't know that cutting dowm rainforests to plant soya beans to generate fuel is too good for the planet.

"How can you use ... food production to fuel motor cars without causing a problem for people ... in poor countries.

"Where are they going to get the food to eat? If you're taking millions of acres of food producing land and say that's now going to be fuel producing land, where's the food going to come from?'

Substituting fuel for food production has serious global consequences, he warns.

"We've got a whole lot of social unrest coming down the track at the moment at a million miles an hour if we're not careful.

"I don't see how you can take a whole lot of food production out the chain without having a massive social effect,'' he says.

Despite his scepticism about hybrid cars, Walkinshaw, who heads a group of automotive companies, confirmed his European engineers were developing diesel-electric hybrid technology for commercial use in trucks and buses.

Development is based on a 2.2-litre diesel engine that acts not as a propulsion unit, but a generator for an electric motor. The technology is about a year away from being able to be commercialised.

"I think there's a big opportunity for efficiency in buses and commercial vehicles for hybrid that could make a huge impact,'' he said.

"There's a lot of pollution that comes out of that type of vehicle - so there's a lot of potential for making quite a significant improvement.''

Local governments in European cities are quite interested in the technology to clean up their cities, he says.

"Before we started, we had a lot of sounding out of governments and cities throughout Europe that were all very receptive to the concept of being able to cut down the pollution in the city,'' he says.

Other measures that his companies were investigating include "stop-go'' and cylinder de-activation engine technology to eke out better fuel economy.

"You have to ... be at the forefront of anything that's being developed,'' he says.

Vectracious
30th July 2008, 09:23 PM
The performance car expert, whose company is investigating the idea of developing a diesel model (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=53909)for its range of high-powered Holdens,


Oh dear, imagine firing up your new VF (or whatever the next model will be - they are running out of letters) Clubsport/GTS/Senator and thinking you've started up a tractor.....

But seriously - he has a point - the Prius is a load of crap - built for people to make them feel good about themselves because they reckon they are being kinder to the environment (theres a reason why South Park made that episode about every one buying a Pious) - they should get the diesel fuel quality to what it is in Europe and get the new generation of diesel engines out here - like the Merc Bluetech.

MatsHolden
30th July 2008, 09:35 PM
And we've probably all seen this... lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8XDscWleKw&feature=related
I hate the Prius.

dieselhead
30th July 2008, 11:54 PM
HSV won't do a Diesel because a Commodore is still a Commodore, regardless of the HSV badge. On a such heavy platform you need at least a 200 kW V6 turbo diesel to get some meaningful performance and that cost a lot of money. Much cheaper to keep on shoving in antique V8s and tweak it to get 4 kW more than a run of the mill SS...

Vectracious
31st July 2008, 09:33 AM
HSV won't do a Diesel because a Commodore is still a Commodore, regardless of the HSV badge. On a such heavy platform you need at least a 200 kW V6 turbo diesel to get some meaningful performance and that cost a lot of money. Much cheaper to keep on shoving in antique V8s and tweak it to get 4 kW more than a run of the mill SS...

Do you know if GM has one in their engine family? Maybe one from their truck division from the states?? problem would be it would be heavy which will screw up the handling somewhat.....

MatsHolden
31st July 2008, 12:56 PM
Holden are working on a diesel system to suit the VE...

Calibrated
31st July 2008, 01:27 PM
Bring The Astra 888!!!!!

GodsKnight
31st July 2008, 01:46 PM
Bring on Perpetual Motion!

dieselhead
31st July 2008, 03:48 PM
Bring The Astra 888!!!!!

Amin brother! Even better with the new twin turbo oiler at the front :)

dieselhead
31st July 2008, 03:53 PM
Do you know if GM has one in their engine family?

I do know that, sure I do. However, I also know that a 200 kW diesel cost a bomb. Just look at the prices of an A5 TDI, 335d/535d or any other similar performance car you can think of. Holden/HSV would lose money if they sold you a Commodore with hi-po six diesel engine at V8 petrol prices. A 160 kW diesel Commodore won't match HSV sporty image I'm afraid. Not "manly" enough, would look like a wuss compared with the Euros I mentioned above.

pred8r
31st July 2008, 04:19 PM
Since the 70's holden has been a 'performance' marketed company, think of and commodore and you usually get tyre smoke memories, ford you dont.
HSV learnt this with the coupe4, from all accounts handled great but no smoke, didnt fit their 'hero' image and flopped.

There is NO way holden would even attempt to bring an astra diesel powered commodore to market, they would get lynched. Most people would be "0-100 in 16sec...f**k that" and not give a crap about its cost to run. Thats why a $150k 427kw COMMODORE has sold out.

I'm in 2 minds as to why the diesel astra anyway. My opinion;
They brought it only to be on the diesel bandwagon, theres only one type, its not overly economic (compared to other diesels), but its quick, kinda fitting the GM hero image.
Its basically the UK's diesel SRI without the bodykit but wasnt marketed as 'sport' model as diesels are 'supposed' to be slow.
The cost to buy one vs its economy may shortfall sales, meaning they will then sell more petrols and can control the influx of diesel product.
If they had one of the more economic diesels it would be slow and not fit the overall GM image, media would bag it, it will flop.
I like the idea of it, but it has only been made available for certain unknown reasons otherwise it would be available across the entire range in all shapes ie. a high spec Wagon CDTi, I'd absolutely get one. Reps would love it.

Wonder why they didnt/dont release the combo here in a diesel?

Vectracious
31st July 2008, 04:41 PM
I do know that, sure I do. However, I also know that a 200 kW diesel cost a bomb. .

It's too bad the high performance diesel engines are so expensive - even a 160kW diesel engine would fly in the Commo....

which engine were you thinking of (I'm in the dark when it comes to what diesel engines have in their parts bin apart from the 1.9 they have in teh Astra)

pred8r
31st July 2008, 06:09 PM
which engine were you thinking of (I'm in the dark when it comes to what diesel engines have in their parts bin apart from the 1.9 they have in teh Astra)


Iveco, Isuzu, Fiat......

Vectracious
31st July 2008, 07:55 PM
Iveco, Isuzu, Fiat......

have they got any 6 cylinder blocks or are they all 4's?

MatsHolden
31st July 2008, 08:01 PM
There's a V6 Diesel that GM enveiled last year in Europe. Developed in Italy for Cadillac, iit's being tested in the VE at the moment. 2.9 Litre V6 Diesel. 184kW and 550Nm apparantly. It's a partnership between GM and VM Motori.

EL BURITO
1st August 2008, 12:49 AM
Isnt there a Saab large diesel engine

Dave
1st August 2008, 04:16 AM
This is kinda off topic, but relavent in a way, With the cost of petrol vs diesel vs lpg. Atm i am running a 3.8L V6 in a old VP for $49 per 550 k on lpg.

On the same note, my astra 1.8L 4 poter will return 600-700 per tank for close to 70 each fill.

700 being highway and 600 being very fortunat with stop start normal traffic, but usualy its around the 550 mark.

The 550 in the vp is all traffic work. I havent taken it for a long cruise on the highway yet.


70L of lpg VS 45L of fuel though. But I am fortunat enuff to of found a servo where the LPG has stayed a steady 50c a liter for the last 3 weeks and counting.


I know its kind of like compareing apples and oranges, with one car being a 6 and the other a 4. But for the meantime the 6 is cheaper to run on gas then the 4 is to run on petrol, and performance out of the 6 on gas closely matches it on petrol it still suffers the usual 10-20% loss with the old mixer style lpg systems, but the newer suquental injection systems are suposed to be indentical to petrol, Its been fortunat enuff to have a realy good tune.


While i was reading up on lpg, i came across some page saying the 1.8l astra motor's dont mind lpg at all. the heads stand up ok to it. And there is a sequential injection kit available over sea's for them aswell.

How cheap would that be to run !

pred8r
1st August 2008, 07:32 PM
While i was reading up on lpg, i came across some page saying the 1.8l astra motor's dont mind lpg at all. the heads stand up ok to it. And there is a sequential injection kit available over sea's for them aswell.

How cheap would that be to run !


In the UK the barina (XC/Corsa C) had the option of factory LPG. You could even get it on the SRi, so I cant see why it wouldnt work for the Astra. Not much of a performance hit either.

Consumption vs Cost to run (3 KNOWN, to me, average's)

My cousins LPG V8
1 tank = 400km
400km/60lt=6.66km per lt
100km/6.66km=15.01lt per 100km
15.01lt * 70¢ = $10.51/100km
60lt * 70¢ = $42.00/tank

Wifes 380
1 tank = 480km
480km/58lt = 8.27km per lt
100km/8.27km = 12.09lt per 100km
12.09lt * $1.57 = $18.98/100km
58lt * $1.57 = $91.06/tank

My Van
1 tank = 1100km
1100km/80lt = 13.75km per lt
100km/13.75km = 7.27lt per 100km
7.27lt * $1.78 = $12.94/100km
80lt * $1.78 = $142.40/tank

Kinda makes you think when you break it down like that......

Dave
2nd August 2008, 05:07 AM
The v8 on lpg is the winer by $27.30 That is one thing i never would of thaught possible. And i bet it absolutly slaughters the diesel van


400km out of a v8 on 60L of LPG is dam good, Im not sure what happened with my last tank of LPG bit it only returned a measly 380 for 70L

There was long periods of idleing and flooring it up to the speed limit, and the occasional bit of um circle work in a mates paddoc. ( the benafits of owning a POS commonwhore )

Im not to sure of this, but i heard different mixes of lpg return different performance and km's something about the mix of butane and propane.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject, real info on lpg seems hard to find online.