M5 Twin Turbo

[Wraith]

Looks like BMW are 'maybe' going to up the ante -and it's about bloody time...BornWild will be non stop wet dreams :D

Since both it's new M5 and M3 are getting their respective arses kicked by just about every other new supercar kid on the block, including their own lesser stable mates, ie: the 335i and 135i, it's about time they too turn to forced induction for their flagship performance models...

Like I've noted in the 7 series thread, I predict the next M3 or even a mid-life update of the current vehicle will feature the 4.4ltr twin turbo V8 - how else can possibly compete on a performance standpoint with everything else out there ATM...

Link to M5 TT article:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9070910.004/bmw-m5-twin-turbo-and-m7-prototypes-spied

[Orion_996]

I think the M3 competes quite well against the in class competitors, the AMG and RS4, the AMG sure gets it in straight line, but neither of them got nothing on it in speed balance and agility, from what I've been reading anyway.

But hey if they do it, I'm all for it. But I'm also sure I read about 2 years ago the some head guy of M tech said that M cars will never use turbos. But then again lots of things change in 2 years.

[lithium]

I think the M3 competes quite well against the in class competitors, the AMG and RS4, the AMG sure gets it in straight line, but neither of them got nothing on it in speed balance and agility, from what I've been reading anyway.

But hey if they do it, I'm all for it. But I'm also sure I read about 2 years ago the some head guy of M tech said that M cars will never use turbos. But then again lots of things change in 2 years.

wow, i hope that guy has changed his mind :)

look at the civic type-r to see what sticking an N/A donk in a car does when all its competitors are using turbocharged engines! i read an article once that pointed out that the MPS3 has *twice* the torque of a type-r

anyway not to hijack the thread topic :) i agree that the M5s and M3s are more about being good to drive than massive straight line speed...whats a few tenths of a second when you're already getting to 150km/hr in the time it takes to say 'holy moly'?

[Wraith]

I think the biggest problem for both the M3 and M5 are the 'lesser' stable mates...

Both 335i and especially 135i can match or beat them in a straight line and cost significantly less...and are not too far behind in the handling department.

The 135i is a sales success because of this fact...and we may see an even more potent M1 variant...

These cars a purposely 'less equipped' similar to what Porsche do with the Cayman vs 911 to make sure they don't completely overtake the upper end hi-po models !!!

I think this would be the main reason to up the performance of those 2 to justify the price tags.

I've also read in several reports that M3's are lying idle in German storage yards and not selling one bit as well as they used to, because people are opting for superior performance cars such as the GT-R in similar price brackets or spending more for cars like the Audi R8 instead...

The M3 and M5 havn't had this much competition from outside or within in the past, so they definitely need to either step up, or sell for a lower price, the later will probably never happen, so lets see what BMW do to raise the performance bar :)

[xplosv57]

Am yet to see a 335i or a 135i beat an M5.......

On the TT thing, that test mule has been around for a while now and the next batch of M cars, as well as luxo models will feature turbocharged motors, there's only so much you can pull out of N/A motors and keep the greenie emissions people happy!!!

[Wraith]

Am yet to see a 335i or a 135i beat an M5.......

On the TT thing, that test mule has been around for a while now and the next batch of M cars, as well as luxo models will feature turbocharged motors, there's only so much you can pull out of N/A motors and keep the greenie emissions people happy!!!


135i = 0-100km/h in 4.7sec. (6sp auto) dosn't leave much room in there, in fact that's faster than the M3, the 1/4 is where the M3 and M5 break away a little...

The new DCT (DKG) equipped M3 is a little quicker - but this gearbox is now going to become standard on the 335i (lesser capable version I've read) replacing the 6sp step and hopefully will be offered as an option on the 135i :)

Thanks to your initial influence, I'm keeping a close eye on the 135i, if BMW offer the 7sp DCT option on that car, it'll be an almost perfect package :)

[JohnBu]

Wraith- whats ECU tunes give them 0-100 in 4.7?

[Vectracious]

It's funny watching the posh top german marques getting involved in a horsepower war which is such a low rent pissing contest..... I thought that was only for Ford and GM!! :p

[Apex]

It will be a development mule for something we will see down the line, could even be the prototype for the 2110 5 series.

As stated above, M is about the driving experience, something they do very well, the M5 has been out for 5 years and has sold in massive numbers, I highly doubt BMW are worried that Audi has turned up with a over powered station wagon.

Emissions and fuel costs are the motive behind BMW revisiting Turbo power and anyone who has driven the BMW’s Turbo’s will agree whilst they are fun, they are no match for the N/A M cars.

[lithium]

It will be a development mule for something we will see down the line, could even be the prototype for the 2110 5 series.

As stated above, M is about the driving experience, something they do very well, the M5 has been out for 5 years and has sold in massive numbers, I highly doubt BMW are worried that Audi has turned up with a over powered station wagon.

Emissions and fuel costs are the motive behind BMW revisiting Turbo power and anyone who has driven the BMW’s Turbo’s will agree whilst they are fun, they are no match for the N/A M cars.

i've never had the chance to drive an M car (or a turbo beemer for that matter) - why are the N/As better than the turbos?

[Apex]

Anyone that has heard a new M3 V8 at high RPM will know why…

Comparing a 335i to an M3 is pointless, the M3 has much better suspension, an LSD, wider wheels, sport seats, a body kit, carbon roof..oh the list will just go on and on. Comparing vehicles based purely on paper performance is pointless.

[Wraith]

Wraith- whats ECU tunes give them 0-100 in 4.7?


No ecu tune - that's stock standard, (with the 6sp auto) from the same article that tested it against the Evo 10, which ran a 5.2 think it was :)

The 'slowest' time I've seen from a 135i was a manual on a gravel track that still managed a 0-100km/h in 5.7sec. usually the 0-100km/h times hover around 5.0-5.1 for the manual and 4.7-5.0 for the auto and they average 13.4 for the 1/4 mile run...

With ecu tunes (and there are heaps) Dinan, Juice Box, SSTT, Sharkfin Edit, etc. etc. the 135i's are running mid to low 12's :)

However there are some major issues with the latest production 135i and 335i ecu's - long story short, they feature 'special' detection software that makes BMW aware if you've 'played' with it in any way which will instantly void your warranty, this is still been researched/addressed by tuners, will keep you informed as progress is made...

All info is from the BMW International 1 series forum :)

[Wraith]

Anyone that has heard a new M3 V8 at high RPM will know why…

the M3 has much better suspension, an LSD, wider wheels, sport seats, a body kit, carbon roof..oh the list will just go on and on. Comparing vehicles based purely on paper performance is pointless.

Not knocking the M3 or M5 the above reasons are exactly why they are keeping their respective noses ahead of the 335i and 135i !!!

If you equip a 335i or even better a 135i with all that gear, it will destroy an M3...the 135i dosn't even have a proper LSD !

I've been spending lots of time on BMW forums of late, so I know this to be the case from actual owners of these cars !!!

Lots of 135i owners there are previous owners of both E46 M3's and older M5's and most prefer the new little 135i hands down...

The new M3/M5 is the better and superior car in stock standard trim, but it only takes an ecu tune on a 135i to give it a real scare in a straight line or even on the track...and it costs less than half as much :)

[Apex]

However there are some major issues with the latest production 135i and 335i ecu's - long story short, they feature 'special' detection software that makes BMW aware if you've 'played' with it in any way which will instantly void your warranty, this is still been researched/addressed by tuners, will keep you informed as progress is made...

All info is from the BMW International 1 series forum :)

BMW could always see the flash tune, no flash is invisible. A dealer car access fuel and boost maps when they diagnose a problem. I wouldn’t think they would go searching without suspicion.


I even had my ECU reset by Holden and warned once.


Not knocking the M3 or M5 the above reasons are exactly why they are keeping their respective noses ahead of the 335i and 135i !!!

If you equip a 335i or even better a 135i with all that gear, it will destroy an M3...the 135i dosn't even have a proper LSD !

I've been spending lots of time on BMW forums of late, so I know this to be the case from actual owners of these cars !!!

Lots of 135i owners there are previous owners of both E46 M3's and older M5's and most prefer the new little 135i hands down...

The new M3/M5 is the better and superior car in stock standard trim, but it only takes an ecu tune on a 135i to give it a real scare in a straight line or even on the track...and it costs less than half as much :)


Hold on, A boosted up 1988 Mitsubishi Gallant VR4 can beat a new M3, doesn’t make it a better car? If you were to fit all the parts to a 335i it would cost more than a M3, would be easier to fit the 3lrt turbo to an M3, but then you would have a sad sounding low revving turbo.

M department spend a lot of time tuning their cars to perfection, something a back yard flash company and a set of aftermarket springs cant achieve.. I love the 135i but wouldn’t put it in the same league as the M3.
Might as well compare a worked Toyota MR2 Turbo to a Ferrari F335 :confused:

[Ice]

A close friend of mine works for BMW Development in Munich so ill ask him and see if I can get some inside Info on future developments.

[Apex]

Cool, can you ask him if they are going to build the 135TIi?? That would be nice.

[JohnBu]

No ecu tune - that's stock standard, (with the 6sp auto) from the same article that tested it against the Evo 10, which ran a 5.2 think it was :)

The 'slowest' time I've seen from a 135i was a manual on a gravel track that still managed a 0-100km/h in 5.7sec. usually the 0-100km/h times hover around 5.0-5.1 for the manual and 4.7-5.0 for the auto and they average 13.4 for the 1/4 mile run...


i would of thought that the manual was quicker than the old school auto (non-dsg).

thats in America, so I take the results with a grain of salt.. I always find the same car always gets better 0-60 (or 0-62) numbers in the US than here in Aust with 0-100.

just to back this up, the 1/4 mile times seems 'slow' for a car that apparently does high 4s.

any Aust mags test the performance of the 135i here? easier to compare apples to apples.

also you can't compare the times against the evo x, unless it was same track, same driver and same conditions.

still an awesome little car.. I too, have gone off the E46 M3. For the same price as a 7 yo M3, you can get a new 135i.

Regardless of how quick a 135i is, it still doesn't have the presence of the M3.

[Wraith]

BMW could always see the flash tune, no flash is invisible. A dealer car access fuel and boost maps when they diagnose a problem. I wouldn’t think they would go searching without suspicion.


I even had my ECU reset by Holden and warned once.




Hold on, A boosted up 1988 Mitsubishi Gallant VR4 can beat a new M3, doesn’t make it a better car? If you were to fit all the parts to a 335i it would cost more than a M3, would be easier to fit the 3lrt turbo to an M3, but then you would have a sad sounding low revving turbo.

M department spend a lot of time tuning their cars to perfection, something a back yard flash company and a set of aftermarket springs cant achieve.. I love the 135i but wouldn’t put it in the same league as the M3.
Might as well compare a worked Toyota MR2 Turbo to a Ferrari F335 :confused:

That's true, we can't start comparing moded tunes...and I have repeated in my posts the M3/M5 are superior cars, there's no question about that one too :)

But my main point in my previous posts was to suggest how good the 135i is stock standard with just a 'basic set-up' compared to the full house equipped M cars and it comes aweful close to them at a fraction of the purchase price = excellent bang for buck comparatively speaking when looking at the new Beemer range :) something every new BMW buyer is also looking at and considering judging by the people on the BMW forums ;)

[Wraith]

i would of thought that the manual was quicker than the old school auto (non-dsg).

thats in America, so I take the results with a grain of salt.. I always find the same car always gets better 0-60 (or 0-62) numbers in the US than here in Aust with 0-100.

just to back this up, the 1/4 mile times seems 'slow' for a car that apparently does high 4s.

any Aust mags test the performance of the 135i here? easier to compare apples to apples.

also you can't compare the times against the evo x, unless it was same track, same driver and same conditions.

still an awesome little car.. I too, have gone off the E46 M3. For the same price as a 7 yo M3, you can get a new 135i.

Regardless of how quick a 135i is, it still doesn't have the presence of the M3.

Yes, 135 tii is coming in the near future !!!

Rumour has it being powered by a 2.0ltr. turbo petrol 4 banger !!!

You don't have to ask people in Gernmany (although that would be good) just go to the many BMW car forums :)

[Wraith]

i would of thought that the manual was quicker than the old school auto (non-dsg).

thats in America, so I take the results with a grain of salt.. I always find the same car always gets better 0-60 (or 0-62) numbers in the US than here in Aust with 0-100.

just to back this up, the 1/4 mile times seems 'slow' for a car that apparently does high 4s.

any Aust mags test the performance of the 135i here? easier to compare apples to apples.

also you can't compare the times against the evo x, unless it was same track, same driver and same conditions.

still an awesome little car.. I too, have gone off the E46 M3. For the same price as a 7 yo M3, you can get a new 135i.

Regardless of how quick a 135i is, it still doesn't have the presence of the M3.

:confused:

Not sure what you mean John ??

High 4's usually equate to mid 13's over the 1/4...that same test that produced 'consistant' 4.7's to 100km/h is the same that got the 13.4 over the 1/4 - sounds about right to me...and it was against the Evo 10 on the same day, same track, same driver !!! it's even in one of the threads here, see if you can find it, or I'll try and get a link for you :)

As for auto vs manual - you should know that with certain power/weight ratios and a good auto trans, they start being quicker than manuals !

It's also the case for the XR-6 turbo and VE HSV's too, the 6sp auto is quicker than the manual !!!

The 6sp steptronic auto trans in the 135i and 335i is the same ZF unit used in Fords and other cars...

It has a very high/quick shift rate and has a 'locking' stall converter which locks at 1,200rpm under WOT...it's ratios are also very short all the way to 5th gear, so no surprises it works very well behind the powerful N54 engine (that's the IL6 TT in the Beemers)

What's really interesting and I've also stated this before on my other posts is the 335i will introduce the 7sp DCT as standard and this 'might' become available as an option on the 135i - that will be awesome but you will have to pay around 4k extra for it...

[Wraith]

Cool, can you ask him if they are going to build the 135TIi?? That would be nice.



Yes, 135 tii is coming in the near future !!!

Rumour has it being powered by a 2.0ltr. turbo petrol 4 banger !!!

You don't have to ask people in Gernmany (although that would be good) just go to the many BMW car forums

Sorry for this re-post, but I got the wrong quote above LOL :)

[rjastra]

The new 7 series comes with a 240Kw version of the 3L TT. 10% more power and torque from the same engine from the factory.

[Wraith]

The new 7 series comes with a 240Kw version of the 3L TT. 10% more power and torque from the same engine from the factory.

That's correct rj, but it's all just 'adsvertised' power ratings - they're not all as they seem, just like the 206kw rating going on for decades with the Japanese cars :)

The 135i is advertised as 225kw/400nm, but the dyno tells a different story...the average dyno figures on this car that I've seen on the BMW forums is 181-190kw at the wheels and never under 400nm at the wheels !!!

So the quoted flywheel power/torque numbers by BMW are well under what's really there in stock standard trim...the quoted figures for the new 7 series (240kw/450nm) are more realistic, but it's probably the same state of tune as the N54 IL6 TT in both the 335i and 135i...it's obvious when you look at the cars performance/acceleration capabilty that it's got more than what's quoted :)

With just a few mods, ecu map, intake, DP's only, guys are getting 270-290kw and 540-570nm at the wheels...I can see the 135i becoming a fav. for tuners in future when they become older and cheaper...

[Apex]

Just go and drive one (135i) wraith, you won’t be disappointed!! Saw a lowered black one yesterday running large BBS wheels with a bit of tire stretch.

[Wraith]

Just go and drive one (135i) wraith, you won’t be disappointed!! Saw a lowered black one yesterday running large BBS wheels with a bit of tire stretch.

Thanks TTEETT, already have :)

Steve (exlosiv57) was also trying to organise it for me a while back, but I managed to tee up a session myself 2 weeks ago (135i auto vert) and was back at the BMW dealer this past weekend to take a Sedona red 135i manual for a spin...yes I'm very impressed, the car drives soooo much better than a basic 320i sedan, not just performance wise, but overall feel is just fantastic and I'm happy to learn the 1ers are being built in Germany not abroad :)

I'm trying to get more time behind the wheel though, both test drives I did were too short and I didn't get to really 'open em up' as km's on these 2 demos was getting high and they told me, the test drive would have to be a short one :(

New demos will arrive eventually and "I'll be back" (as Arnie would say :D)

Not making any decisions yet, because with this model, if you buy now, you'll have to wait until about April/May '09 for delivery :eek: hell, I might change my mind by then, I also visited the Benz dealer directly across the road and melted whilst checking out the new SLK aaaarrrrrgggghhhhh :drool: what a sexy piece of machinery !!! (albeit not a very practical one) and boy from what I saw the new 350 variants V6 (224kw/360nm) model goes and sounds just as horny as it looks - absolutely love it, it's a near perfect scaled down SLR Vision, just the stuff wet dreams are made of :drool: :D

[JohnBu]

i keep forgetting that the better autos i.e. ZFs are quicker than the manual from a standing start..

not fair... damn auto drivers! haha..

still any test done in Australia?

[Wraith]

i keep forgetting that the better autos i.e. ZFs are quicker than the manual from a standing start..

not fair... damn auto drivers! haha..

still any test done in Australia?

I hear a rumour that said in Motor Mags coming bang for your buck comparos, the 135i toppled the Evo 10...ie it got a better track time over it...

Don't know if this is the case, but wouldn't surprise me, as I've read numerous comparos between the 135i, Sti and Evo 10 and the 135i has always come out the winner/prefered choice overall :)

I've also read numerous comparos of previous generation M cars (both M3 and M5) from owners themselves and again the majority prefer the 135i, in fact there are numerous new 335i owners who have switched to a 135i - quite a little banger BMW has got themselves there...and 'probably' the 1st BMW with a reasonable price tag (for what you actually get) compared to other BMW models...

It looks certain future models will have the 7spd DCT/DKG trans also (automated manual which will be standard on the 335i from Sept '08) how could you not opt for the auto with that choice (if you can afford the extra ie) stick shifts are slowly becoming extinct ! for all those who think they just can't live without one, well I suppose it's back to bicycles for them :D

[Orion_996]

The 135 is def a great car. And even more so because of the price. And as you said with it being, well maybe faster, but definitely matching the EVO, that is brilliant. Especially considering they cost about the same, if you don't add any options to the BM that is, then I know which I'd choose.

[Wraith]

The 135 is def a great car. And even more so because of the price. And as you said with it being, well maybe faster, but definitely matching the EVO, that is brilliant. Especially considering they cost about the same, if you don't add any options to the BM that is, then I know which I'd choose.


The above is exactly why I like it as well...

It does only cost a little more for the 135i base model with manual trans. than the top MR model Evo 10 with SST, but with the 135i your also getting IMO a much better interior and better long term holding value...

Once you option it up though and if you opt for the auto, you do start getting 10's of thousands more expensive than the Evo 10, then it's an individual choice...each to his own and what you can afford or want...

I still think for those who want a hi-po street car and definitely want to also track and mod their car alot, the Evo 10 would be better, for those looking at having a hi-po street car and not really wanting to mod, or only mod a little, the 135i would be the go :)

[Ice]

A close friend of mine works for BMW Development in Munich so ill ask him and see if I can get some inside Info on future developments.

Well here is what he replied with and bare in mind English is not his first language.




Hola chico!

The actual M versions dont have a turbo or a supercharger. The M3 is only a year old, so it will take at least six years until BMW will bring out a new one.
The new 5 series will come out in 2010 and it normaly takes two more years until they bring out the M model. I cant say if they will bring the new M5 with a turbo.
The former BMW policy was a non turbo policy, but since two years the engineering dept changed its mind (after changing its head of dept) and they now build turbo engines not only as diesel.
The new turbo engines are brilliant!!! I work with the new 7series at the moment and they charged the small engine to 326 hp out of 3 liter capacity (twin turbo). The new V8 has only 4.4 liter capacity and brings 407 hp. It is also a twin turbo engine. Man, those engines are a dream...

The SL65 looks realy bad!! I saw a film of testdrives at the Nürburgring. Fantastic car but unpayable. 310000 € and a consumption of 20 l per 100 km is too much...;-)

I work 14 hours a day. You see I keep myself busy. Makes it a little easier.

I owe you some photos of my M5 adventure. You will see them soon.

Regards from Bavaria

Tom

[JohnBu]

I work 14 hours a day.

Regards from Bavaria



damn Germans work hard

[Wraith]

Well here is what he replied with and bare in mind English is not his first language.




Hola chico!

The actual M versions dont have a turbo or a supercharger. The M3 is only a year old, so it will take at least six years until BMW will bring out a new one.
The new 5 series will come out in 2010 and it normaly takes two more years until they bring out the M model. I cant say if they will bring the new M5 with a turbo.
The former BMW policy was a non turbo policy, but since two years the engineering dept changed its mind (after changing its head of dept) and they now build turbo engines not only as diesel.
The new turbo engines are brilliant!!! I work with the new 7series at the moment and they charged the small engine to 326 hp out of 3 liter capacity (twin turbo). The new V8 has only 4.4 liter capacity and brings 407 hp. It is also a twin turbo engine. Man, those engines are a dream...

The SL65 looks realy bad!! I saw a film of testdrives at the Nürburgring. Fantastic car but unpayable. 310000 € and a consumption of 20 l per 100 km is too much...;-)

I work 14 hours a day. You see I keep myself busy. Makes it a little easier.

I owe you some photos of my M5 adventure. You will see them soon.

Regards from Bavaria Tom


This guy certainly deserves a round of applause for his efforts :clap:

Glad to hear there's a bit of a turn-a-round in thinking on BMW's part and that they're reverting to more forced induction, one would think given the current and future competion, not only in terms of performance, but emmisions as well, they will have to...and that 4.4 TT V8 sounds fantastic indeed...