4 cylinder turbo commodore

[USC]

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=52635

Sounds alrite!!:D

"...The engine would likely be a 2.0-litre four-cylinder turbocharged engine slated for use in the Chevrolet Camaro, which shares its underpinnings with the Holden Commodore...

...Admittedly the engine proposed for the Camaro uses a turbocharger to boost output. It could even produce more power than the current 180kW V6 used in entry-level Commodores... "

[EL BURITO]

Holden’s move to consider a four-cylinder version of the Commodore is in line with a broader strategy to reduce the environmental impact of its vehicles. Holden is also looking at hybrid propulsion as well as a diesel and alternative fuels (http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=52633) such as LPG and compressed natural gas.

interesting

[InsaneAsylum]

lol it's just unaustralian :D

[Wraith]

Agree ^^^^

Bit of a joke IMO but people will come up with all sorts of silly solutions for a given problem - 180kw turbo 4 potter hauling around a 1.8 tonne vehicle makes really good sense in terms of fuel burn and enviromental impact.....yeeeessss well, I reckon they should keep smoking more of that weed they've got there !!!

[USC]

You never know..they could incorporate with some crazy technology like turbo charger with supercharger, direct injection, variable valve timing on inlet and outlet valves, DSG transmission, using an aluminium body for the commodore, etc ..the 4 potter could output more power than the V8 model..lol

[SSS_Hoon]

You never know..they could incorporate with some crazy technology like turbo charger with supercharger, direct injection, variable valve timing on inlet and outlet valves, DSG transmission, using an aluminium body for the commodore, etc ..the 4 potter could output more power than the V8 model..lol


sounds familiar like it already exists.

oh wait it does called VW


LoL


A 4 banger commodore is just wrong and i doubt it will get off.

If anything it will be the Torana if it ever comes out here that will get it.


SSS_Hoon

[Wraith]

You never know..they could incorporate with some crazy technology like turbo charger with supercharger, direct injection, variable valve timing on inlet and outlet valves, DSG transmission, using an aluminium body for the commodore, etc ..the 4 potter could output more power than the V8 model..lol

Yes they could - but what would be the end product cost of something like that above ??? I don't think the regular Commodore buyer would want to spend a small fortune on a hi tech Commodore...I'm sure they'd look elsewhere ;)

The issue here is not about power output...of course you could get a 2.0ltr forced inducted engine to produce huge power...the issue here is fuel usage quantities and emissions ! and of course a total package that's priced to sell in your typical Aust. Commodore market :)

[oneightoo]

ignore this duplicate post :p

[oneightoo]

lol it's just unaustralian :D

it wouldnt be the first time a Commodore had a 4 cylinder engine..

the VC had the Starfire 4 Cyl engine..

[Huhness]

car emissions are not a big contributer the global pollution. Sure it does contribute but not as much as other industries.

http://www.climateprotect.org/files/aa21_piechart1.png

[Apex]

it wouldnt be the first time a Commodore had a 4 cylinder engine..

the VC had the Starfire 4 Cyl engine..

Fail.

Anyone remember the Opel 4-Cylender powered VN Commodore?

[InsaneAsylum]

Fail.

Anyone remember the Opel 4-Cylender powered VN Commodore?

NO!

we never got that here, therefore it never existed. :p

we also never got the 2L VL commo you guys had over there

[InsaneAsylum]

all of this doesn't really matter....

soon under the krudd labor government, we will all be driving the toyota camry hybrid in the standard communist grey colour.

all other cars will be illegal under the regime and will be turned into scrap metal

[Dave]

shhh because of this global warming thing were haveing a good winter :p It hasent been cold at all !

[Wraith]

it wouldnt be the first time a Commodore had a 4 cylinder engine..

the VC had the Starfire 4 Cyl engine..


It started with the VB ! and what a POS they were - seriously, I know from 1st hand experience !!!

[Wraith]

shhh because of this global warming thing were haveing a good winter :p It hasent been cold at all !


Are you kidding ???

Come down to Melb. we're having a real cold and early winter this year :(

[sooty]

Are you kidding ???

Come down to Melb. we're having a real cold and early winter this year :(

I want a storm!!!!!
I want thunder...and lightening! there hasn't been one in years...
Bring on the cold, bring on the rain, bring forth storms!
As for this 4 potter commodore..it won't happen...

[Wraith]

I want a storm!!!!!
I want thunder...and lightening! there hasn't been one in years...
Bring on the cold, bring on the rain, bring forth storms!
As for this 4 potter commodore..it won't happen...

LOL all that may very well come...although hope not :)

[USC]

sounds familiar like it already exists.

oh wait it does called VW


LoL

SSS_Hoon

I never said DSG never existed...I said they could use the technology.

[low astra]

sounds familiar like it already exists.

oh wait it does called VW


LoL


A 4 banger commodore is just wrong and i doubt it will get off.

If anything it will be the Torana if it ever comes out here that will get it.


SSS_Hoon


wasn't there 4cyl comodores in the 80's, like maybe vc or something???

[Roquefort]

if its the turbo i think they are talking about (which is approx 195kw/360nm) it should be successful, just tune it so it would produce more power/torque at lower revs (why does a family car need a 6.5k redline?)

[USC]

if its the turbo i think they are talking about (which is approx 195kw/360nm) it should be successful, just tune it so it would produce more power/torque at lower revs (why does a family car need a 6.5k redline?)

like the wrx sti, u could tune it to produce 400nm..more than the current v6 I think.

[xplosv57]

I think Holden is forgetting how much the VE weighs, surely a 4cyl turbo will use a heck of alot of fuel trying to push all that weight, V6 does it more efficiently!!! Just like the 4 cyl Camry, ridiculous on fuel unless driven by a grandma (as most are)!!!!

V6 turbo, now there's a freakin idea, look how well the XR6T is doing!!!

[Roquefort]

I think Holden is forgetting how much the VE weighs, surely a 4cyl turbo will use a heck of alot of fuel trying to push all that weight, V6 does it more efficiently!!! Just like the 4 cyl Camry, ridiculous on fuel unless driven by a grandma (as most are)!!!!

V6 turbo, now there's a freakin idea, look how well the XR6T is doing!!!


i dont think number of cylinders and capacity has anything to do with it, look at the golf TSFI or what ever it is, same if more power then the standard fsi but better fuel economy, but correct me if im wrong.
hell even if they had a 2.4 turbo with 180 kw and 400nm, i think it would be better then the current boat anchor in the commo.

but what holden really needs to do is cut some weight from the near 1800kg base commo and start investing in some weight saving materials, 1650< kg would a good target

[Wraith]

wasn't there 4cyl comodores in the 80's, like maybe vc or something???

Yes, already mentioned previous page :)

And like I've already said - they were a total piece of shit !!!

[xplosv57]

Yes, already mentioned previous page :)

And like I've already said - they were a total piece of shit !!!

LOL 1.9l powerhouse with that silky smooth 3 spd auto pushing 1400kg, what's so bad???

[carab]

Mazda has done the same stupid thing recently also by sticking the MPS 6 2.3litre turbo and dropping that straight into the CX7. Seemed like all their problems were solved, except for the fact that it had poorer mileage than the Territory, which was one of its direct competitors.

Further proves the point that 4 cylinders don't like pulling fattys

Mazda failed (yet my parents bought one anyway) :doh:
Holden, take note from others and don't do the same stupid stuff as them.

[Wraith]

i dont think number of cylinders and capacity has anything to do with it, look at the golf TSFI or what ever it is, same if more power then the standard fsi but better fuel economy, but correct me if im wrong.
hell even if they had a 2.4 turbo with 180 kw and 400nm, i think it would be better then the current boat anchor in the commo.

but what holden really needs to do is cut some weight from the near 1800kg base commo and start investing in some weight saving materials, 1650< kg would a good target

I don't think the turbo 2.0TSFI has better economy than the N/A...where's the info on that ???

Steve is correct in what he stated in his post !

A very good example is my TS turbo convertible at 1420kg or so, I get "NO WHERE NEAR" the consumption figures the hatch owners get with the same Z20LET with the same mods !!! and that was with the stock wheels when I did my comparisons, whether it be grandma highway cruising or spirited driving...the obvious culprit is the greater weight !!!

Now imagine adding another 3-400kg on top of that !!! starting to get the picture ???

Another good example is the new Evo 10...it weighs in at 1,580kg with the SST trans option, (225kw 2.0ltr DI) from figures I've seen on the U.S Evo 10 forum those guys are struggling to get anywhere over 20mpg whatever way they drive it !!!

If you do the math that's approx. 14.12ltrs/100km - hardly efficient...my HSV VTII R8 250kw 5.7ltr LS1 powered 1,720kg auto Commodore could do alot better than that, I would average 14-16ltrs/100km with quite a bit of spirited driving in there !!!

A car in the size/weight class of the current Commodore would definitely be better off with a highly efficient bigger displacement N/A engine, these proposals of smaller forced inducted engines keep coming up, IMO simply as marketing hype, because the normal Joe Blow out there will simply think or have a perception, that because it's a smaller engine it'll consume less...but it's not necessarily the case :)

[Wraith]

Mazda has done the same stupid thing recently also by sticking the MPS 6 2.3litre turbo and dropping that straight into the CX7. Seemed like all their problems were solved, except for the fact that it had poorer mileage than the Territory, which was one of its direct competitors.

Further proves the point that 4 cylinders don't like pulling fattys

Mazda failed (yet my parents bought one anyway) :doh:
Holden, take note from others and don't do the same stupid stuff as them.

Yet another good example - I can't see why this isn't plainly obvious to people, especially if they've ever owned a turbo car and then compared it to other N/A types - all factors considered... :)

[xplosv57]

If you do the math that's approx. 14.12ltrs/100km - hardly efficient...my HSV VTII R8 250kw 5.7ltr LS1 powered 1,720kg auto Commodore could do alot better than that, I would average 14-16ltrs/100km with quite a bit of spirited driving in there !!!
:)

Yep, i got a similar LS1 powered car and can do 8-9l/100km on the highway and 11-12l/100km in normal city driving, it's currently does 14l/100km because i sit 2 hours each day in stop/start traffic (love the Monash fwy) and once out of that, spends the rest of it's time in very 'sprited' driving!!!

The motor has to match the cars weight and also what it needs to do!!

Good example i have, driven an X3 2.5i for the last week, absolutely babying it and best i could do was 12.7l/100km, was hovering around 14l/100km, same as my V8 being driven hard with 1/3 of the power but similar weight!!!

I doubt Holden will go ahead with a turbo 4 in the Commodore, maybe in a smaller rwd platform aka Torana but not in the big family sedan!!

[Roquefort]

sorry i meant the TSI GT,(im more into V8 commodores then Euro's)

had a quick look on red book for fuel efficiency

http://www.redbookasiapacific.com/au/vehicle/comparespecs.php?id2=411788&id=384207&new=1

the 1.4 TSI has 125kw/240nm whilst the 2.0 N/A has 110kw/200nm, yet the TSI returns better fuel economy.
i know the figues wont really relate to real world conditions but i suppose its good for this comparison.

[Wraith]

I hope they don't even do it in a Torana - if it ever exists - that would be a let down to the name and the previous generation, even though there was the 'Sunbird' model with 4 banger and again from personal experience, that was another total piece of shit !!!

[poita]

piece of shit doesnt even come close ang lol
from what me old mans mate has said about it, he owned one, a piece of shit is an upgrade!

[bornwild]

A 2.0ltr TDi would suffice in a Commonwhore for normal commuting :)

When you consider that a Skoda Superb comes with a 1.6ltr N/A in Europe....(Superb is a Passat sized car, ~1600kg)

[USC]

hmm...why dont they release a supercharged V12 - 10L commodore??now that would be some serious power.

[bornwild]

This 2.0l turbocharged idea is quite good actually :)

[Wraith]

A 2.0ltr TDi would suffice in a Commonwhore for normal commuting :)

When you consider that a Skoda Superb comes with a 1.6ltr N/A in Europe....(Superb is a Passat sized car, ~1600kg)

I would have to agree with you and admit that a turbo diesel 2.0ltr 4 pot powerplant would be a much better choice than a small petrol turbo in a large and heavy vehicle such as a Commodore, if they wanted to offer high efficiency and still have reasonable go...

[USC]

I would have to agree with you and admit that a turbo diesel 2.0ltr 4 pot powerplant would be a much better choice than a small petrol turbo in a large and heavy vehicle such as a Commodore, if they wanted to offer high efficiency and still have reasonable go...

still too weak..imagine how slow that thing would be...just heaps of torque but no speed..like a tractor.

Need at least a 3L 4 cylinder turbo diesel like in the Isuzu Rodeo.

[Wraith]

still too weak..imagine how slow that thing would be...just heaps of torque but no speed..like a tractor.

Need at least a 3L 4 cylinder turbo diesel like in the Isuzu Rodeo.

Agree...

A bigger displacement higher kw TD would be better again...

[Apex]

They simply need smarter big engines and smarter gearboxes, my 545i is consuming under 10ltr/100km at the moment with a claimed average consumption of 10.7 which is pretty good in comparison to the V6/V8 GM product.

[rjastra]

People forget one thing.... a small 2L turbo 4 engine would weigh less than the 3.6L v6 in the current commodore. JUst like the XR6T engine weighs much less than the 5.4 L V8

Less weight = less fuel used

You can tune a turbo engine to have max Nm at very low revs (vw can do it at 1750 rpm!). Meaning you can have taller gearing overall which can lower fuel consumption. Its the reason the LSx V8s have poor city economy but good highway economy.

Less cylinders = less engine friction (less moving parts) and therefore better economy.

Turbo = more bang out of every litre of fuel used.

There is a reason why manufacturers are releasing small engine/turbo combos. Because it works!

People forget one thing about the old VC Commodore 4. It was actually much lighter than the equivalent 6 cylinder version. Less weight = smaller brakes needed. Less performance = smaller wheels needed = less weight.

[Wraith]

People forget one thing.... a small 2L turbo 4 engine would weigh less than the 3.6L v6 in the current commodore. JUst like the XR6T engine weighs much less than the 5.4 L V8

Less weight = less fuel used

You can tune a turbo engine to have max Nm at very low revs (vw can do it at 1750 rpm!). Meaning you can have taller gearing overall which can lower fuel consumption. Its the reason the LSx V8s have poor city economy but good highway economy.

Less cylinders = less engine friction (less moving parts) and therefore better economy.

Turbo = more bang out of every litre of fuel used.

There is a reason why manufacturers are releasing small engine/turbo combos. Because it works!

People forget one thing about the old VC Commodore 4. It was actually much lighter than the equivalent 6 cylinder version. Less weight = smaller brakes needed. Less performance = smaller wheels needed = less weight.


All good points, however we'd need actual figures of what a VE equipped with a 2ltr turbo and running gear package actually would weigh in at, before we can make any accurate assessments...I would take an educated guess that it would be 'at least' 1,600kg if not more, which is still too high to achieve good economy with a forced inducted 2.0ltr 4 pot powerplant, regardless of it's tune.

I actually owned one of those old Commodores mentioned above, as I've stated in previous posts, you literally had to floor the bastard to get anywhere, so it wasn't good on petrol !!! and it's the same story with modern car types fitted with equivalant engines - the bigger/heavier they are, the more fuel they'll burn to move that vehicle over the same distance...

Maybe a specific tune will help, by how much can only be answered by trying it out.

BTW no ones brought up the DOD feature on the V8's yet, which we finally get, albeit a bit too late, but I see the application of this simple technology on the newer V6's (like Honda now does) as a much better step in achieving better fuel burn figures on a vehicle in the Commodore class without compromise on performance, than resorting to a smaller 4 pot forced inducted option, which would also require a complete R&D re-do of the whole car = more money = higher price tag on the end product...

[mr corsa]

a 2ltr turbo commodorewill never happen but if it duz im sure it will be about as popular as the mazda road pacer was in the 70s
a pic of the road pacer
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/mr_corsa/7d92_1.jpg

[xplosv57]

a 2ltr turbo commodorewill never happen but if it duz im sure it will be about as popular as the mazda road pacer was in the 70s
a pic of the road pacer
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/mr_corsa/7d92_1.jpg

LOL yes the rotary powered Kingswood, god what a nightmare!!!!

Rotaries and Kingswoods are great in their own right, but put together, it made a depressing combo!!!!

[rjastra]

AS has been said before. VW does quite well matching a 2L turbo petrol with a large car. The Passat Wagon is going on for 1600kg yet has respectable performance and fuel economy (combined at 9L/100km). THe trick is matching it to a suitable auto transmission.

The engine that has been put forward as a possible candidate in the Commodore has all the latest tech, DI, dual VVT etc etc.

MAx Nm is 350Nm at 2000rpm. That essentially matches the torque of the 3.6L V6. It can be mated to a 5 speed auto and is already found in a RWD platform.

[Wraith]

AS has been said before. VW does quite well matching a 2L turbo petrol with a large car. The Passat Wagon is going on for 1600kg yet has respectable performance and fuel economy (combined at 9L/100km). THe trick is matching it to a suitable auto transmission.

The engine that has been put forward as a possible candidate in the Commodore has all the latest tech, DI, dual VVT etc etc.

MAx Nm is 350Nm at 2000rpm. That essentially matches the torque of the 3.6L V6. It can be mated to a 5 speed auto and is already found in a RWD platform.


That's all well and good, but what are the fuel consumption figures of the current 3.6 V6 - I'm sure it'll be at least 9ltr/100km combined if not better !!! so why resort to a turbo 4 potter ???
I'd still put forward that a DOD V6 would be far superior in this regard and less costly for development and production...

Remember as stated by myself and Steve, who've owned V8 Commodores, you can get under 10ltr/100km combined with a V8 in a recent Commodore and when DOD is introduced it'll be easily achievable to to get under 10ltr/100km with a high power V8 !!!

Again therefore why resort to adopting a turbo 4 potter to replace them for better economy in large vehicles ???

Also looking at some of the latest 2ltr turbo powerplants with DI and dual VVT etc. eg: Mitsu MIVEC of the new Lancer range, the efficiency is not good, nor is it any good with the Mazda 2.3 DI engine.

I've also read that the new GMH 3.6 V6 DI will deliver around 230kw - by the time you boost even a modern high tech 2ltr 4 potter to that power level, it'll consume more fuel than the N/A V6...

[bornwild]

still too weak..imagine how slow that thing would be...just heaps of torque but no speed..like a tractor.

Need at least a 3L 4 cylinder turbo diesel like in the Isuzu Rodeo.

...No, it wouldn't...the Astra CDTi has as much torque as the V6 that's in the commonwhore now :)

[bornwild]

Ange, I think the current V6 has an official figure something like ~11L :)

[xplosv57]

Ange, I think the current V6 has an official figure something like ~11L :)

Yeah you're right, official figures are all round the 11l/100km mark, but with an ecu tune, have seen them in the 9's combined!!!

Personally i think instead of spending time and money on engines, i think more development should be spent in weight saving and downsizing, the VE is a big car, but has not made massive interior space gains from the VZ, extra kg's doesnt seem worth it!!!

Ford was researching this when the BA was first released, they were going to introduce aluminium panels in the mk2 BA's, reducing the weight some 200kg's, but have since seen nothing of it (was hoping for something with the FG update)!!

[rjastra]

I think people have to realise that highway figures mean very little to the average commuter. Any car can be made to give a decent highway figure.

It's city commuting that does the damage. Constant stop start etc. In these situations DOD has very little effect as the cars rarely get to a constant cruise speed for any large amount of time.

The combined economy of the Commodore is 10.8L/100km.
The combined economy of a Passat TSFI is 9L/100km. That's close to 2L/100km difference.

[mr corsa]

bring back mazdas roadpacer :clap:

[xplosv57]

bring back mazdas roadpacer :clap:

LOL even if they turboed, ported and modified that 13b, it'll still struggle to push that big bastard Kingy as well as drinking what's left of the world's oil supply!!!!

[mr corsa]

mazda roadpacer for life
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=150255831014&Category=2030&_trksid=p3907.m29

[rjastra]

LOL even if they turboed, ported and modified that 13b, it'll still struggle to push that big bastard Kingy as well as drinking what's left of the world's oil supply!!!!


That model Kingswood isn't as heavy as you think....

[dieselhead]

Holden should follow Bangle's lead in reducing weight. (http://jalopnik.com/395588/bmw-gina-light-visionary-model-revealed-creepy) Then, and only then, a 4 cylinder Commodore might work ;)

[xplosv57]

That model Kingswood isn't as heavy as you think....

1575kg, i'd say that was pretty damn heavy!!! Especially for an n/a carby 13B which produced 100kW!!!! The only rotary car i can think of with that weight is the Cosmo, and they needed the 20b triple rotor to push that sucker!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Roadpacer

Yep agree with Bangle's weight reduction idea, makes sense to make cars lighter, therefore saving fuel as i previously mentioned!!!

[Orion_996]

1575kg, i'd say that was pretty damn heavy!!! Especially for an n/a carby 13B which produced 100kW!!!! The only rotary car i can think of with that weight is the Cosmo, and they needed the 20b triple rotor to push that sucker!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Roadpacer

Yep agree with Bangle's weight reduction idea, makes sense to make cars lighter, therefore saving fuel as i previously mentioned!!!

Holy crap, 9mpg (26L/100km) now thats bad

[Wraith]

Yeah you're right, official figures are all round the 11l/100km mark, but with an ecu tune, have seen them in the 9's combined!!!

Personally i think instead of spending time and money on engines, i think more development should be spent in weight saving and downsizing, the VE is a big car, but has not made massive interior space gains from the VZ, extra kg's doesnt seem worth it!!!

Ford was researching this when the BA was first released, they were going to introduce aluminium panels in the mk2 BA's, reducing the weight some 200kg's, but have since seen nothing of it (was hoping for something with the FG update)!!

Agree and discussed before that this ever increasing size of model ranges is ridiculous...

GMH should seriously look at downsizing the Commodore, this will reduce weight without resorting to more exotic materials, redesign, or smaller lighter engines, it would also reduce wheels and brake sizes as previously mentioned due to the lower mass and keep all round costs down if not reduce them !

Steve, I think you'll find that the reason nothing's come from the use of aluminium in the Falcon has everything to do with costs !

After all the design/re-design and development costs and procurement of specialised tooling/factory set-ups and the material itself, the end product would be too expensive...like I've said before, not many in the market for a 'basic' Commodore or Falcon want to spend a fortune on it ;)

[Wraith]

LOL even if they turboed, ported and modified that 13b, it'll still struggle to push that big bastard Kingy as well as drinking what's left of the world's oil supply!!!!

Correct !!!

Please don't anyone here try and bring in the rotary engine as a solution to an economical source of powerplant for a big heavy car...

They produce tiny amounts of torque in N/A form and consume fuel like there's no tomorrow !

[rjastra]

1575!! That makes it about 150Kg heavier than a V8 premier of the same vintage!

[xplosv57]

Holy crap, 9mpg (26L/100km) now thats bad

Geez, my old bridgy 13B wasn't that bad, and that thing was only 900kg and it went alright!!!



Steve, I think you'll find that the reason nothing's come from the use of aluminium in the Falcon has everything to do with costs !

After all the design/re-design and development costs and procurement of specialised tooling/factory set-ups and the material itself, the end product would be too expensive...like I've said before, not many in the market for a 'basic' Commodore or Falcon want to spend a fortune on it ;)

Yeah that's what i thought too, development costs must have been too much to justify fitting new lightweight panels to a car which would sell for 30-60k!!!

But imagine if the XR6T had a 200kg weight loss...........:eek:


Correct !!!

Please don't anyone here try and bring in the rotary engine as a solution to an economical source of powerplant for a big heavy car...

They produce tiny amounts of torque in N/A form and consume fuel like there's no tomorrow !

Yeah probably the worst solution to an oil crisis, they drink fuel as well as burning a hell of alot of oil!!!!

Even the sequential injection RX-8 is ridiculous on the juice for such a low powered car!!!

[InsaneAsylum]

Correct !!!

Please don't anyone here try and bring in the rotary engine as a solution to an economical source of powerplant for a big heavy car...

They produce tiny amounts of torque in N/A form and consume fuel like there's no tomorrow !

LOL 2 words

mazda roadpacer :D

[Wraith]

1575!! That makes it about 150Kg heavier than a V8 premier of the same vintage!

Searched for some numbers and came up with similar as above...

Kingswood sedan with V8 = 1,386kg
" Premier " = 1,429kg

If the modern day Commodore weight was similar (as were VN/VP) there might be some reasonable arguement for a 4 pot installation, but I still go against that idea, even at those weights.

A modern V6 with DOD would still be the best option IMHO for the optimum combination of power/performance/economy.

[bornwild]

DOD is just a gimmick...it doesn't actually reduce fuel consumption :)

[xplosv57]

DOD is just a gimmick...it doesn't actually reduce fuel consumption :)

I wanna see real world figures with the Holden V8 before i say anything, but the system on the Chrysler V8's is definetely a gimmick, tests have shown little or no difference in consumption!!!!!

[Wraith]

I wanna see real world figures with the Holden V8 before i say anything, but the system on the Chrysler V8's is definetely a gimmick, tests have shown little or no difference in consumption!!!!!

True it hasn't worked the best on those, mainly because it activates on 'grandma' driving mode only, ie: sitting and cruising at highway speeds, every other time it's running as normal...

I'm interested to see how well the new V6 Hondas will do with their DOD technology, as said before, leave it to the Japanese to get things right ;) the rest can then follow or copy like they usually do !!! :D

[rjastra]

Cadillac had DOD on their models nearly 28yrs ago.... ;)

[Wraith]

Cadillac had DOD on their models nearly 28yrs ago.... ;)

Yes, we know, already mentioned the U.S have had it for aaaaages - we do leave/get so many things way after the fact here in Aust. it just ain't funny :(

[Roquefort]

Cadillac had DOD on their models nearly 28yrs ago.... ;)
but it was a massive failure, reliability problems etc.
hopefully the DOD in the next incarnation of the V8 is not that bad.
i really dont know why holden didnt activate it in the VZ 6ltrs for, all the hardware was there but for some reason they didnt do the software for it.....

[Wraith]

but it was a massive failure, reliability problems etc.
hopefully the DOD in the next incarnation of the V8 is not that bad.
i really dont know why holden didnt activate it in the VZ 6ltrs for, all the hardware was there but for some reason they didnt do the software for it.....

As said, everything here is always so slow to catch on.....bloody hell sometimes we get things after it's already been abandoned by others...

The LS3 has been released and it still dosn't have DOD :rolleyes: maybe VE series II or who knows...

[xplosv57]

The problem with the DoD is that when Holden saw it fail on the Chryslers, they've had to spend alot of time making it work in our conditions, hence why it wasn't released in VZ, nor VE!!!

It does feature in the new Holden ad's so shouldn't be too long till we see DoD activated in the V8 Holdens!!

[Wraith]

The problem with the DoD is that when Holden saw it fail on the Chryslers, they've had to spend alot of time making it work in our conditions, hence why it wasn't released in VZ, nor VE!!!

It does feature in the new Holden ad's so shouldn't be too long till we see DoD activated in the V8 Holdens!!


About bloody time too :)

Could it also be due to the fact that V8's are selling better than ever, over the last few years, so GMH has had that confidence to ride on and not worried about further improving their V8's economy ???

[rjastra]

I don't think the yanks calibrated DOD for manuals. Therefore it wasn't really a goer for the VZ SS that has a split between manual and autos.

I think that is also the reason why there is no manual Pontiac G8 as well (until the GXP version).

[bornwild]

DoD doesn't work at all....just think about the physics of a car. If you want acceleration you need a certain amount of force to keep the car going, no matter how many cylinders are working you still need to burn a certain amount of fuel! DoD doesn't improve the efficiency of the engine nor does it make the engine produce more energy for less fuel.

Only thing it does is cram more fuel into less cylinders, straining the engine more for no reason whatsoever.

DoD is a gimmick that was produced to satisfy those silly yanks...:)

[Wraith]

DoD doesn't work at all....just think about the physics of a car. If you want acceleration you need a certain amount of force to keep the car going, no matter how many cylinders are working you still need to burn a certain amount of fuel! DoD doesn't improve the efficiency of the engine nor does it make the engine produce more energy for less fuel.

Only thing it does is cram more fuel into less cylinders, straining the engine more for no reason whatsoever.

DoD is a gimmick that was produced to satisfy those silly yanks...:)

It dosn't work that way at all BW...it 'shuts off' 2 or 4 cylinders at a time entirely, ie: valve movement and air/fuel feed to those cylinders, it dosn't send the same amount of fuel to the remaining operating ones...when 'coasting' this is more than enough to keep the vehicle moving !!!

I'll bet if the programming was completely sorted out, it'd work wonders !

True it hasn't shown fuel consumption savings as what was expected, (with yank V8's) but IMO it will improve - just wait n see, lets wait and see what the results are on the Japanese cars being released with it ;)

[Tfer]

all of this doesn't really matter....

soon under the krudd labor government, we will all be driving the toyota camry hybrid in the standard communist grey colour.

all other cars will be illegal under the regime and will be turned into scrap metal

It won't be grey.... Rudd's stylist won't agree to that..... but probably some nice shade of paisley pink would do nicely :rolleyes:

[bornwild]

It dosn't work that way at all BW...it 'shuts off' 2 or 4 cylinders at a time entirely, ie: valve movement and air/fuel feed to those cylinders, it dosn't send the same amount of fuel to the remaining operating ones...when 'coasting' this is more than enough to keep the vehicle moving !!!

I'll bet if the programming was completely sorted out, it'd work wonders !

True it hasn't shown fuel consumption savings as what was expected, (with yank V8's) but IMO it will improve - just wait n see, lets wait and see what the results are on the Japanese cars being released with it ;)

Yes I'm familiar with the way it works I was just taking it back to basics...why shut off 2 cylinders when you can just as well keep the RPM low and decrease the amount of fuel you spray into the chambers with all 8 cylinders still working, hence achieving the same thing? :)

That's what I was saying, you still need a certain amount of force to move/accelerate a car. :)

[Wraith]

why shut off 2 cylinders when you can just as well keep the RPM low and decrease the amount of fuel you spray into the chambers with all 8 cylinders still working, hence achieving the same thing? :)


The above is in fact what's been done already !!!

That's what the major advance forward was from carburetor to fuel injection and then a step further again by having an advanced ecu program to regulate the fuel/air feed to the minimum possible amount of fuel required to produce power and with the optimum timing without detonation...

And it's worked !!! my old 5.7ltr HSV with 250kw had far lower fuel consumption than my older 160kw 5.0ltr VH SL/E Commodore !!!

Once you've achieved the most frugul running conditions as listed above, the next obvious step is to ' turn off ' cylinders entirely to further save fuel...that's what the whole basic idea of 'Displacement On Demand' is all about...it just hasn't achieved desired results - but it's not dead in the water yet either :)

[USC]

And it's worked !!! my old 5.7ltr HSV with 250kw had far lower fuel consumption than my older 160kw 5.0ltr VH SL/E Commodore !!!

:)

damn..you have been polluting the earth for a while:D

I dunno what Im gona do if petrol finishes:eek: . Those electric/hybrid cars are so crap...and they sound piss weak. Hydrogen sounds like a good idea but Im yet to hear a hydrogen car.

anyways...turning cyclinders off is a good idea specially when you are cruising at 100/110km/h in 6th gear and dont need any extra power.

[Wraith]

damn..you have been polluting the earth for a while:D




LOL :D yes while most of you were in your nappies and sucking on your thumbs or not even born yet, I was already in the car game :)

Those old carburated V8's were shocking on the juice, but worked up (or tuned) as it's commonly refered to these days, they could really get down and boogie !!!

My old 9sec Torana was a carbie jobbie... :)

[bornwild]

The above is in fact what's been done already !!!

That's what the major advance forward was from carburetor to fuel injection and then a step further again by having an advanced ecu program to regulate the fuel/air feed to the minimum possible amount of fuel required to produce power and with the optimum timing without detonation...

And it's worked !!! my old 5.7ltr HSV with 250kw had far lower fuel consumption than my older 160kw 5.0ltr VH SL/E Commodore !!!

Once you've achieved the most frugul running conditions as listed above, the next obvious step is to ' turn off ' cylinders entirely to further save fuel...that's what the whole basic idea of 'Displacement On Demand' is all about...it just hasn't achieved desired results - but it's not dead in the water yet either :)

Ange!!!!!!! Dammit!!!!!!! :p I'm gonna start speaking Italian soon :p

What I'm meaning to say is, to combat air resistance, friction etc....you need X amount of FORCE, and that amount of FORCE can be provided by a Y amount of FUEL....and you can't change these X and Y no matter what DoD or whatever gimmick you use...understand what I'm saying now? :p :D

[USC]

Ange!!!!!!! Dammit!!!!!!! :p I'm gonna start speaking Italian soon :p

What I'm meaning to say is, to combat air resistance, friction etc....you need X amount of FORCE, and that amount of FORCE can be provided by a Y amount of FUEL....and you can't change these X and Y no matter what DoD or whatever gimmick you use...understand what I'm saying now? :p :D

Here you go:

Ciò che sto per dire significato è, di lotta contro la resistenza dell'aria, attrito, ecc ... avete bisogno di X importo della forza, e che la quantità di forza può essere fornita da una Y quantità di carburante .... e non è possibile modificare queste X e Y non importa quale DoD gimmick o qualunque cosa si usa ... capire ciò che sto dicendo ora?

[Wraith]

Hahahahaha LOL guys....USC that's an excellent translation - did you do that yourself or with assistance ??? I'm impressed :)

BW I still don't understand you :D

Can you write it up in German for me :p :D

[bornwild]

You didn't translate gimmick into italian :D truchetto :D

[USC]

Can you write it up in German for me :p :D

In German:

Was ich bin Sinne zu sagen ist, zur Bek&#228;mpfung von Luft-Widerstand, Reibung usw. ... Sie brauchen X Betrag von Gewalt, und dass die H&#246;he der Kraft kann auch durch einen Y Menge Kraftstoff .... und man kann nicht &#196;ndern Sie diese X-und Y-egal, was DoD Spielerei oder was auch immer Sie ... verstehen, was ich jetzt sagen?

[Wraith]

LOL well done again, your using a translating package arn't you :p

Yeh, BW not every word was picked up, but stil a very accurate translation :)

[bornwild]

That german translation is very bad...:p

[USC]

lol!! Nothing is better than translate.google.com

:D :D

[Wraith]

Back on topic, there was a very similar article in last weeks Cars Guide and according to that report, it suggested GMH will seriously be looking at diesel and LPG alternatives for the Commodore in coming years with specialised versions of their V6 for this !!! a V6 TD would be very interesting indeed as would a specially made factory 'full time' LPG powered car - I and others did suggest that idea previously, looks like people at GMH may think it's a good idea too ;)

It mentions that LPG will be looked at more favorably than diesel in the future !

No mention at all of petrol turbo 4 potters which in my mind is still a ludicrous idea for a big family car like the Commodore...and I still think that will never happen...

The article also confirms the existence of a twin turbo reduced capacity variant of GMH's new V6 which is already in production and used in China !!!

So definitely there's a TTV6 Commodore just over the horizon :)

[bornwild]

I still think the 2.0ltr turbocharged is a great idea, much better than the current crop of NA V6s

[xplosv57]

Back on topic, there was a very similar article in last weeks Cars Guide and according to that report, it suggested GMH will seriously be looking at diesel and LPG alternatives for the Commodore in coming years with specialised versions of their V6 for this !!! a V6 TD would be very interesting indeed as would a specially made factory 'full time' LPG powered car - I and others did suggest that idea previously, looks like people at GMH may think it's a good idea too ;)

It mentions that LPG will be looked at more favorably than diesel in the future !

The article also confirms the existence of a twin turbo reduced capacity variant of GMH's new V6 which is already in production and used in China !!!

So definitely there's a TTV6 Commodore just over the horizon :)

That TT horizon has been coming up for ages now, was originally discussed for release with VZ, that Torana concept motor would be awesome, and would finally give a competitor to the XR6T!!

Turbo diesel would be a good thing, would cope with the VE weight and have decent performance and economy figures!!!

LPG though i'm not so sure of, gas is for barbecues lol!!!

The Falcon e-gas system is very good, but you do lose on a few kW's!!!

[USC]

LPG is rubbish. It is a natural gas and is still sourced from the ground.... it also produces less kws and stinks like hell.

Turbo diesel commodore would be fantastic but Im not against say a 5 cylinder turbo petrol engine like in the xr5T but tuned to produce much more power and torque.

hmm..twin turbo v6 used in china..there must be a reason why its the only place they have that engine...:p ..dodgy as.

[rjastra]

Natural gas isn't the same as LPG. I think LPG is a byproduct of oil refining.
Natural gas is what we use for hot water and cooking in the home. Comes from inland sources usually associated with coal seams etc.

There is already a TT version of the GM V6... it's found in a SAAB! 2.8L.

[InsaneAsylum]

i'm a big fan of turbo diesels, i hope to see more of them on the market

[Wraith]

Natural gas isn't the same as LPG. I think LPG is a byproduct of oil refining.
Natural gas is what we use for hot water and cooking in the home. Comes from inland sources usually associated with coal seams etc.

There is already a TT version of the GM V6... it's found in a SAAB! 2.8L.

Correct...

I already mentioned the reduced capacity GMH V6TT used in China, the one used by SAAB is yet another variant !!!

It is also used by Alfa Romeo and many others in Europe in N/A form - yep that's GMH's good ol V6 in there LOL, but in some cases, Alfa being one, they use their own intake, ecu, appendages etc.

All you guys knocking LPG - go read up on it 1st ;)

The newer systems will deliver equal performance to petrol and actually make the engine run smoother and are much safer in terms of detonation !!! LPG loves compression and you would have no trouble running comp ratios of up to and over 16:1 !!!

My Bro has one of these new tech LPG systems on his sport Magna - he hasn't had it on the dyno, but just by the 'seat of the pants meter' it feels just as strong as when running on petrol...unlike the older systems which had a very noticeable loss of power...

The down side is the consumption, approx. half the range of petrol using the same volumes of either...

I'll have to look into exhaust emissions, but I believe toxic levels etc. are lower with LPG than with petrol or diesel...

[USC]

Alfas, Saabs are not renowned for having good engines... They are stylish, comfortable...quality is so so...