The future of Holden in Australia, future products\direction

[jch75]

Hello All,

Indirectly this topic has sparked a lot of diverse commenting from various people as seen in the below topics in this forum:

("General Discussion") Is the Adventura a poor excuse for a SUV?

[there was one other thread but i'll add it here later]

Please read all of these threads and the links before commenting.......

What are your thoughts?

[rjastra]

hmmmm let me see

I predict Holden will sell

1. small sized cars
2. medium sized cars
3. large sized cars
4. A people mover of some type
5. Ute/commerical vehicles
6. A SUV of some sort
7. A luxury car

In fact, pretty much what they (and others) are doing now.

Vehicles they should bring out.
- Chevy Equinox mated to the 3.6L V6, that could be a big seller for Holden.
- Meriva to combat the JAzz/MAzda 2.
- A commercial van of some sort

What they need to fix.... VECTRA. It's dead in the water. Making it cheaper hasn't worked. Ditch the 4 cylinder version and just go with V6 models.

While they are at they could bring out the Meriva to combat the JAzz/MAzda 2.

[frankie9fingers]

I read in the paper today Holden are dropping Daewoo Australia.

[Jass]

Holden are going to down size it, and finish selling them off, all current Daewoo's will be serviced at Holden dealerships.

[anicorsa]

Making the Vectra V6, will just eat into Commodores sales.

I dont think there needs to be any competition to the Jazz/Mazda2, Both arent that popular, and Barina fills that market anyway.

But they definitely need something to go up against Kleuger(sp?) and the Mazda Tribute. Chevy Equinox is a good idea.

My 2c

[Dee]

yeha go the meriva, i would love to see one of those in the flesh :D

[anicorsa]

How big is the Meriva??? I thought it was large like Tarago size.

[rjastra]

I dont think there needs to be any competition to the Jazz/Mazda2, Both arent that popular,

Go do some research and get back to me 8)


Making the Vectra V6, will just eat into Commodores sales.


Again, go do some research.... the V6 Vectra is a better seller than the 4 cylinder model.

[anicorsa]

:oops:


I shouldnt speak off the top of my head...



But isnt commodore an even bigger seller??

[anicorsa]

OK, did a bit of research...

Carpoint.com.au

Top 5 in April
LIGHT PASSENGER
1386 Toyota Echo
1251 Hyundai Getz
753 Kia Rio
544 Holden Barina
516 Honda Jazz

Jazz is doin well, but beaten by Barina. Mazda2 nowhere...

[Anonymous]

The Meriva Would be Good here.
To answer ya Questions, Its a Barina Sized Zafira.
Same Concept as The Astra and Zafira Family.
http://www.meriva.ch/opel_de/img/home/main_image.jpg

[01CDsedan]

I think the only thing that would really get Vectra sales moving would be to introduce a cheaper four, something like the old Vectra B GL spec. Put it on the market at say $27,990 and you'd do some business.

I wouldn't be too surprised though if the Vectra is not sold here once the VE comes out in 2006 - I hear they're working on a hatchback ("Torana"?) along the lines of the SSX, which would make the Vectra a bit pointless.

[Mr T]

Making the Vectra V6, will just eat into Commodores sales.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would seriously compare these two cars, for starters the Commodore is a cheap and nasty and the Vectra is a quality European Vehicle. Maybe the VE (2006) might be a bit better as promised.

[Seus]

vectra is european and quality but i think suffers from bad image from holden as a company and the past vectra being abit lower market

[01CDsedan]

Making the Vectra V6, will just eat into Commodores sales.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would seriously compare these two cars, for starters the Commodore is a cheap and nasty and the Vectra is a quality European Vehicle. Maybe the VE (2006) might be a bit better as promised.

There are plenty of things the Commodore does well that the Vectra is very poor at...especially at the Vectra CD/Commo Exec level.

[Mr T]

There are plenty of things the Commodore does well that the Vectra is very poor at...especially at the Vectra CD/Commo Exec level.


CD is four cyl, not exactly apples with apples.
aswell as owning an SRi-T, my company car is a VY Exec, it doesn't do many things good except it is more than capable of consuming fuel, rattling, and sweaking.
what exactly were you referring to?

[01CDsedan]

CD is four cyl, not exactly apples with apples.
aswell as owning an SRi-T, my company car is a VY Exec, it doesn't do many things good except it is more than capable of consuming fuel, rattling, and sweaking.
what exactly were you referring to?

When they're selling for about the same price and they're both family sized cars, I'd say a direct comparison is fair.

The Commodore has better performance, would make a better tow car, has more space, cheaper parts, and doesn't have the Vectra's visibility/ergonomics problems. But it has a very low-tech engine, albeit a reliable and very effective one.

The Vectra, on the other hand, has a better interior, is possibly marginally better built, and almost certainly has superior handling. It's better looking in some ways, and worse in others.

Which would I buy? Neither, quite frankly. Not when the far superior BA Falcon and the interesting Magna AWD are available for the same price.

[jch75]

[quote="01CDsedan"][quote="onenutsbigger"]

The Vectra, on the other hand, has a better interior, is possibly marginally better built, and almost certainly has superior handling. It's better looking in some ways, and worse in others.

quote]
Dude, the Vectra is very nice and has plenty of power. The handling is good however I need a cough a little when you say superior handling. Being a front wheel drive, the Vectra does suffer from Torque Steer and Tram Lining which is god damn dangerous when you are booting along. I own a Vectra CDXi, great car, great drive but I can help but think FWD is a major let down. After owning a Commodore previously and appreciating how good RWD drive is, I don't think I'll ever buy a FWD again. In any case, all news cars after say 2006 should be AWD drive anyway............
I don't see the point in FWD. RWD is far more acceptable and possibly a little bit more fun then AWD even. Cheers.

[jch75]

When they're selling for about the same price and they're both family sized cars, I'd say a direct comparison is fair.

The Commodore has better performance, would make a better tow car, has more space, cheaper parts, and doesn't have the Vectra's visibility/ergonomics problems. But it has a very low-tech engine, albeit a reliable and very effective one.

The Vectra, on the other hand, has a better interior, is possibly marginally better built, and almost certainly has superior handling. It's better looking in some ways, and worse in others.

Which would I buy? Neither, quite frankly. Not when the far superior BA Falcon and the interesting Magna AWD are available for the same price.

I think you need to look at the vectra from two perspectives............a small sports sedan or a smaller luxury car.

I think the built quality of the Vectra is far better than the Commodore. Feature wise, only electric seats are missing.

Performance wise, the Vectra kicks the Commodore - considering that it is 155kw doing low 7s to 100 which is better than the VT V8 5.0Ltr. I'm not saying the Vectra is faster than an SS but Opel has got crap loads more out of its 3.2ltr than Holden has down with its 3.8ltr or 5.0ltr. The SS wouldn't be worth buying without the 300kw 5.7ltr and that configuration is far from perfect. Nissan for example, get far better performance with just over 200kw in the Z. Holden for some reason, can't get the power down to the wheels. I am not an engineer but I think they need to look abit harder at engineering their product rather than relying on big engines.

To be fair though, I don't think Australian cars are seriously built to be fast unlike say, in japan where they build purpose built race cars - noticeable by turbos (some times 2), slick low drag body profiles and evident performance. Enough said.

I am sure Holden will address some of the engineering issues with the VE and the new engine that is coming.......................and I hope the SSX or Torana does go into production and yes that could be the end of the Vectra. I would like to see an AWD SSX 5.7 Ltr taking on the EVOs and WRX in rally and the like. Those RS32 Golfs are a classic - small car, exceptional build quaility, awesome performance - only a little costly but the same impact and attraction is there.

I am really hoping Holden blow us away with the new VE and SSX - I think they need to make sure the quaility is there and that they don't cut short on any thing. I would expect the VE SS should be at least a second quicker than say the current model. It should have just about every interior feature available. The new body - hmmmmm not like any commodore we currently know - at this stage it is not set to disappoint. Ford did a great job with the XR6T and XR8 and have won a lot of favouritism from people out in the mix. I think Holden now have a great opportunity to outgun Ford for the long haul and they shouldn't hold back in doing so....................................

[jch75]

What do you think of Holdens and 4WDs? The Jackeroo and Frontera are flops sort of, aren't they? I don't really think Holden will ever be able to successfully dominate this part of the market. Not that the Holden products are bad, the Nissans, Toyotas and Mitsubishis have far too much credability now..............

[01CDsedan]

Dude, the Vectra is very nice and has plenty of power. The handling is good however I need a cough a little when you say superior handling. Being a front wheel drive, the Vectra does suffer from Torque Steer and Tram Lining which is god damn dangerous when you are booting along. I own a Vectra CDXi, great car, great drive but I can help but think FWD is a major let down.


When we say 'plenty of power' I can only hope we're not talking about the four-pot Vectra CD, which is what I have been comparing to the Commodore as they start at about the same money. CDX is a different story on performance, my parents bought one of those last year after considering a Berlina and a few other things.

I don't personally find the Vectra suffers from torque steer or tram lining, and I generally prefer its firmer suspension tune to that of non-sporting Commodores.

[01CDsedan]

I think you need to look at the vectra from two perspectives............a small sports sedan or a smaller luxury car.


(big snip)

Just need to make the point here once again that we're talking about the Vectra CD in relation to the Commodore Exec, as they sit at about the same price. When we're at the CDX/Berlina and CDXi/Calais levels, the Vectra has the edge in my opinion.

The performance equation will be shifted come October or November with the new V6 in the Commodore, which will put the four-cylinder Vectra CD at an even greater disadvantage. Frankly, I can't understand how they're selling any at all, at that price. Have you had a look inside one recently? The interior is pretty drab, plain, and looks and feels featureless and maybe even a little cheap - it's a real let down in comparison to how good the CDX and CDXi interiors are.

I too hope the VE will be an absolute ripper, because my current thinking is that I will replace my Astra with a VE/VF SS depending on how I am placed in a few years from now. So obviously it's of great interest to me. The current V8 may not be the greatest in terms of kW/litre, but I've always found that to be a pretty meaningless figure. Better to look at power output and fuel consumed, and on that score the 5.7 V8 does very well indeed. Apparently the Gen IV is even better.

[OPL-20T]

this is the last of the verctra models, its getting replaced by the XU1 or XU6 Torana, the torana project has fallen behind and it will be out around 2006 or 2007 as a mid size car with either a V8 or a V6 twin turbo.

[jch75]

this is the last of the verctra models, its getting replaced by the XU1 or XU6 Torana, the torana project has fallen behind and it will be out around 2006 or 2007 as a mid size car with either a V8 or a V6 twin turbo.

Sick............

Yeah well when i first saw the SSX, I thought Torana straight away. Thats gonna be pretty damn cool. I assume AWD hatch........................V8 or V6TT.

Where did you get that info?

[Mr T]

With reference to everything that has been said.

Holden 4WD's are fairly ordinary, the frontera (an Opel assembled by Isuzu) was pathetic, the Jackeroo (Isuzu), absolutely awesome off road, but didn't quite make the cut for on road usability. But I think that if anyone believes that the Adventurer is an off-road 4WD, you have serious issues that you need to resolve, and I think that Holden should stop marketing it as such, they are not doing them selves any favours.

Holden’s new V6, which is actually due in VZ, will be here in August this year, 194KW 3.8L twin overhead cam multivalve with design allowing for a Turbo in the future, with a 5 speed auto. Also word is that the VE will have AWD across the range, with the base V8 Punching out 280KW ranging up to 380KW for the top HSV. They may be 20 years behind in engine technology now but wait for 18 months, Holden will gain some credibility again.

A lot of people bag the Gen III, but it is not all bad, the reason GM have not developed an overhead cam design (and still wont for Gen IV) is because it will make the heads bigger and wont fit in a sedan (i.e. Commodore and Cadillac). In standard trim it produces 235KW, the reason for this is so that from taking over from the 308 there wasn't much of a jump and it left them room for improvement in future models (watch them give it to Ford in VZ). That engine in unrestricted factory form produces 256KW on 92RON, they have plenty of room for improvement. When I was working for a Holden Dealer we used to sell 300KW upgrades for Holden spec engines, it consisted of: extractors, twin 2 1/4 pipes, cold air, and a removal of the engine cover (to keep it cool), that’s bugger all effort for bucket loads of gain, what other engine produces that sort of gain with after market mods costing $2,500.

Also I hear that torana has been canned, now that Hanenburger has gone I don’t think we will see it. But isn't Vectra coming out in AWD in the next model with a 220KW Turbo V6 (2006-7). I heard that about 2 years ago, but haven't heard anything since.

[jch75]

The new Holden engines:
http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,10144132%255E21822,00.html

Yeah I bagged out the Adventra here:
http://opelaus.com/phpBB2-3/viewtopic.php?t=1637

Vectra - yep heard AWD is coming and in TT diesel.

In either this months Wheels or Motor magazine, they test drive the Holden Concepts - Monaro Convert, 427 and SSX. The SSX does look very similar to the current model Vectra only it has the V8, AWD & a different front end. If the AWD Vectra does come on board (which i have read is in development), maybe Holden can do what Pontiac did with the GTO, just change the front end styling to suit. I'll try and dig up some info on the new Vectra - I have seen some interesting reads on the net (I have the ZC so I have been researching).

Here is a start:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=1803

[ultim8DTM5]

Oooh, TT diesel Veccy even if it wasn't AWD I'd still lust for one.
We need a drool icon

[Jass]

I love that Vectra looks awsome. They love there diesel engines over in the UK dont they?

[ultim8DTM5]

All over Europe actually, I drove a X5 TT diesel here when it first came out. There isn't much on the road that can beat you from 0-60kph, torque is insane (in da membrane)