Australians - Worst Polluters

[bornwild]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

Hello reality! This should be on all our agenda's for the coming decade. Reducing emissions. What's the reason behind us producing more CO2 per capita than bloody Germany or the US...or anyone else for that matter!?

edit: this should be in off-topic.....my bad!!

[dieselhead]

Guess who's laughing now? The French, with 77% of power generation from nuclear plants, can make easily the transition to electric cars for even less overall CO2 emissions. They are ready to face drastic emission reductions. Us here down under? We're basically stuffed, with 85% of our power generation still in the 19th century... Boy, are we going to pay through our noses the transition to clean power... What's pissing me off is that no politician would tell us how much is going to hurt!

[Wraith]

I thought this was car related.....

Was going to otherwise say, collectively all the diesel heads on this forum are the cause :p (joke) :)

Looks like our power stations are on Al Gore' hit list LOL :D

Seriously, I'm kinda surprised at that result, I would've certainly thought other countires would be worse than Australia with that sort of thing :confused:

[cbrmale]

Victorian power stations are a big problem, lignite is 80% water! I've heard stories about struggling to light boilers after maintenance etc etc (they actually use 'coal' to get a fire going, and then gradually feed lignite once the temperature builds - but this is tricky because the water in the lignite puts the fire out).

A major issue with Australia is our high per-capita power consumption (despite France being nuclear, we consume 50% more kilowatt hours per head). I am guessing that we have some power-rich industries like aluminium smelting, and our houses are extremely shabby and energy inefficient as well. Double glazing is still extremely rare, while many houses don't have adequate insulation. Given our generally mild climate compared to Europe and the US, it is a disgrace we use so much power and produce so much carbon dioxide.

[rjastra]

And it's a reason why we didn't ratify Kyoto. It's far easier for euro countries with access to nuclear or large hydro power plants to meet there targets (which they AREN'T!!) than for us to. It's an advantage to THEM economically if the USA and us are dragged into Kyoto.

Its costing countries like NZ/Canada (who ratified Kyoto) huge $$$$ in carbon offsets that in the end make not one zot of difference to C02 reduction.

Maybe Johnnie and Bush aren't as stupid as they seem.

I noticed that NEITHER party deemed it in the country's interest to invest much in "clean" energy during this election. How many windfarms/solar plants could AUD1Billion build. I think Labor put up some money for bring ideas to market.. whatever that means. I could have sworn we knew how to build windmills, dams and solar cells ;)

[blueraven]

i am astonished that in this country we dont have fields of solar panels feeding our small towns let alone our major cities. Serious advances have been made in solar technology inthe last few years, a solar panel can now produce 7 times more energy than it did 3 years ago.

My next house will be fitted with a solar unit capable of providing/storing all the electricity i need, as weel as pumping power back into the grid during the day (which i will be paid for :) ), it only costs 10k for the system fully installed, and it will pay for itself in less than 5 years. 10k on top of a house price is nothing, and now more power bills....ever.

[Tfer]

i am astonished that in this country we dont have fields of solar panels feeding our small towns let alone our major cities. Serious advances have been made in solar technology inthe last few years, a solar panel can now produce 7 times more energy than it did 3 years ago.

My next house will be fitted with a solar unit capable of providing/storing all the electricity i need, as weel as pumping power back into the grid during the day (which i will be paid for :) ), it only costs 10k for the system fully installed, and it will pay for itself in less than 5 years. 10k on top of a house price is nothing, and now more power bills....ever.

Agreed..... :)

[digifish]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

Hello reality! This should be on all our agenda's for the coming decade. Reducing emissions. What's the reason behind us producing more CO2 per capita than bloody Germany or the US...or anyone else for that matter!?

edit: this should be in off-topic.....my bad!!

Be that as it may, Australia is responsible for less ~2% of world CO2 emissions. What we do is irrelevant. That is a statement of fact not a moral judgement.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/FTPROOT/presentations/ieo2000/img010.gif

Please also note what Australasia represents in that graph...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationAustralasia.png

[Black Nugget]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

Hello reality! This should be on all our agenda's for the coming decade. Reducing emissions. What's the reason behind us producing more CO2 per capita than bloody Germany or the US...or anyone else for that matter!?

edit: this should be in off-topic.....my bad!!

Absolutely we need to change but I don't think you can compare countries directly.

For starters we have a significant distance between major cities which leads to transportation emissions and furthermore we have one of the lowest populations for an industrilaised country...i.e many industrial works such as our mining industires, and manufacturing industires, the co2 output cant be shared amongst as many people.

[digifish]

Guess who's laughing now? The French, with 77% of power generation from nuclear plants, can make easily the transition to electric cars for even less overall CO2 emissions. They are ready to face drastic emission reductions. Us here down under? We're basically stuffed, with 85% of our power generation still in the 19th century... Boy, are we going to pay through our noses the transition to clean power... What's pissing me off is that no politician would tell us how much is going to hurt!

And nuclear waste is not a problem?

digifish

[digifish]

Absolutely we need to change but I don't think you can compare countries directly.

For starters we have a significant distance between major cities which leads to transportation emissions and furthermore we have one of the lowest populations for an industrilaised country...i.e many industrial works such as our mining industires, and manufacturing industires, the co2 output cant be shared amongst as many people.

Actually, as hard as it is to deal with on an emotional level, we don't need to change. What we do is irrelevant.

digifish

[Jackson]

so then why are you always craping on about diesel and how much better it is for the environment ??

if everyone thought that n o one would do anything !!

[dieselhead]

And nuclear waste is not a problem?

digifish

Not nearly as big as the CO2 emissions. Or is it global warming just a hoax? Your choice :)

Stop saying that we need big cars because we do big trips because the country is big, blablabla... Transport related emissions account for only 11%, even our cattle and fart more than we release through exhaust pipes! The big problem is power generation, with about 70% of the emissions. That's why an electric car here would rather pollute more than a petrol equivalent.
What worries me the most is not the coal we burn here, but the massive amounts that we send to China and India. What do you think they do with it there? So, on the top of our own dirty business, we help others doing it at a much larger scale. Is worrying because our prosperity is based on coal exports, used to generate cheap enough energy for steel and other industries to prosper over there so they need other resources that we are so keen to sell and so on... Why on earth would any Aussie official sign Kyoto, ever?!

[digifish]

so then why are you always craping on about diesel and how much better it is for the environment ??

if everyone thought that n o one would do anything !!

Specious reasoning. Australian emissions are not the problem.

[xplosv57]

Was going to otherwise say, collectively all the diesel heads on this forum are the cause :p (joke) :)


ROFL!!!!!!!!! Comment of the day!!!!!!!!!! :clap:

[bornwild]

My opinion is that, even though we may only account for 2% of Total emissions we have to rectify our situation. It doesn't matter how much everyone else is putting out, we have to do our best!

As for transportation, as someone pointed out; it causes little amount of the Australian greenhouse gas emissions however this does not mean we don't have to improve technology and our culture. The culture of driving around in a V8 to Safeway is very bad. If everyone drove Diesels we would cut the emissions from transportation by up to 50%!!!!!!

The biggest issue is, like many have already said, energy production! In my opinion, Solar Energy and Wave Energy is the way to go. As Blueraven said, solar panels have improved drastically and every single household should have one. This way they can lower their electricity bill and perhaps even earn money from it. There is also always Geothermal energy and Biomass, which we have plenty of, thanks to a healthy agricultural industry.

This is the way I see priorities in this country:
1. Increase efficiency of housing, nation-wide, drastically.(solar panels, design of houses etc.)
2. Increase use of renewable energy source electric generation
3.Change people's mentality

[dieselhead]

I couldn't agree more with what you just wrote bornwild. Problem is, who is going to pay for all that? Starting when?
I am not worried about transport emissions, the price of oil will take care of that for us. In a few years, driving a V8 will be a sign of having deep pockets rather than being a resident of Bogania :)

[digifish]

My opinion is that, even though we may only account for 2% of Total emissions we have to rectify our situation. It doesn't matter how much everyone else is putting out, we have to do our best!



No. What we do will be irrelevant to total global emissions. It is a smple fact. Even if we drop to 0% it will be meaningless. What Australia does or doesn't do will have no effect.

digifish

[bornwild]

The hundreds of millions of dollars we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice...as well as the money from selling all this Uranium to India and co. :)

Our economy makes a large profit, I am sure that a slice of that can be handed over to making things better here. We can start right now by introducing tax on all large cars. Diesel cars and Hybrids receive discounts. A little diesel Smart should be exempt from Tax. A Hummer should pay huge tax, despite being diesel. May common sense prevail on this issue.

We can also start by measuring the output of CO2 from each and every business in Australia. Pay tax per tonne of CO2 emitted. I'm sure this will encourage the Industry to do something about it.

And why not introduce huge rebates on Solar panels and water tanks. The government should also invest money into the design of eco-friendly homes that don't require air-conditioning nor heating. Then they can sell these designs to all those little builders who are currently building crap houses.

There's plenty of ways of financing this, if only someone had the passion to do it in our government. And the people need to back it also...

[bornwild]

No. What we do will be irrelevant to total global emissions. It is a smple fact. Even if we drop to 0% it will be meaningless. What Australia does or doesn't do will have no effect.

digifish

But we may pave the way! The worst thing that can happen if we improve our situation is that we will breathe in clean air and feel less guilt.

Thomas Edison didn't say 'Oh who cares if I invent the light-bulb, I am only one person amongst billions'...Get my drift? :)

[Vectracious]

And why not introduce huge rebates on Solar panels and water tanks.

Because then everyone will buy some... then not only does the government have to shell out for all these rebates, but the GST collected is also lower because you are not using as much electricity or mains water - ie lose lose situation for them.

[bornwild]

Because then everyone will buy some... then not only does the government have to shell out for all these rebates, but the GST collected is also lower because you are not using as much electricity or mains water - ie lose lose situation for them.

Well that is the problem. The Government is not a non-profit organisation. Although, I do believe there is other ways of using this situation to buffer that loss in GST.

[dieselhead]

See, that's a problem. Who cashes in the GST? The states. Who regulates the power generation? The states again. Why is then Rudd pointing fingers at Howard for not being green enough? What did Labor do in the last 10 years for reducing our dependency on dirty coal?

[Vectracious]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21056772-5010020,00.html

One of the stories that appeared at the start of the year about some leaked email that suggested they would impose a tax on water tanks.

The government (whichever party) will continue to have a hand in everything - its the only way they can maintain these substantial surpluses - after all now that Telstra is basically gone, where are they going to get the money from?

[bornwild]

"If 1000 homes were to install 5000-litre tanks with an annual yield of 57,000 litres, this is 57 million litres that would not have reached a river or ground water system, or -- viewed another way -- is taken from either the environment's entitlement or another productive use."

That's just ridiculous...that's like taxing the air you breathe in. This will never become reality.

[dieselhead]

that's simply rubbish; how much of the runoff in in city like Sydney or Adelaide would end on a farm if everybody installs rainwater tanks? not a drop, it all ends in the ocean anyway.
I find highly amusing how politicians use large figures to impress the audience. 57 million litres is exactly 57,000 kilolitres, worth about $55,000. that makes $55/house. considering you spend $3,000 on the tank and on the plumbing, it doesn't look like a very feasible investment to start with... oh shite, there's some tax to pay then, too :D

[Vectracious]

but its the kind of theory they can use to get this through... It never will, but its what you're up against...

[cbrmale]

Australia is suffering near-continuous drought for ten years, so we need to do something globally and somehting locally! Where I live, de-salination is not an option (it shouldn't be an option anyway-massive increase in greenhouse gases). We are running out of water! In decades to come, much of inland Australia could be uninhabitable.

Coal-fired power stations produce the majority of greenhouse gases, so a two-pronged approach would be to reduce our total consumption of electricity and implement other forms of power generation. However, short of nuclear, the majority of our electicity will be from coal for a long time to come as neither wind nor solar can fill the breach.

An ironic situation is (for example) is a Melbourne tram produces seven times more greenhouse gas per passenger-seat-kilometre than a bus (I used to work for the Public Transport Corporation). Not saying scrap trams, but sometimes the problems are not where we expect to find them.

We could do a lot for transport - especially rail freight transport. Trucks burn ten times as much fuel and produce ten times as much greenhouse gas per tonne-kilometre compared a freight train. For interstate freight, it is criminal we carry so much by truck. Instead of the Alice Springs - Darwin rail line (a John Howard white elephant to buy some votes in a marginal seat - surprise), money should have been spent on an inland rail link from Melbourne to Brisbane, bypassing Sydney. For the price of Alice Springs to Darwin we could have done that, or we could have eased the tight curves from Cootamundra to Sydney and Sydney to Kyogle, making freight transit times competitive with road. The rail alignment from Cootamundra to Sydney was relaid in the 1940s by adding tight curves to ease grades, to enable low-powered steam locos to haul heavier weights. Diesel locos can pull straight up a grade, so the track should (must) be straightened.

The criminality of the last ten years is we have squandered one of the most prosperous times in Australia's history on war and middle-class welfare and not done anything to improve and upgrade our national infrastructure. Not only would a rail freight improvement cut greenhouse gases, it would cut freight costs, making goods cheaper for all of us and helping Australia's manufacturing competitiveness in future years.

[Black Nugget]

lol at the water run off issue. As digfish points out we don't contribute much but I agree as a relatively affluent nation we should lead the way on climate chnage rathr than sticking our heads in the sand.

I reckon more needs to be done like in Germany where they have made producing alternative energy a proper business. Rather than simple subsidies the government pay's for energy produced to be put into the grid, thus farmers use their feilds for livestock as well as energy creation and it contributes to their overall income. If the government helpds offset costs so that it becomes a profitable/viable source of income for others, more are likely to be involved.

Furthermore I see that current alternative enrgy sources are still relatively undevloiped. Apparently the avergae solar panel only runs at 15% eficiency and that windmills are inconsistent.

Finally I think we need to end this green image bullshit. A prius does not save the planet...its is likely to cause just as much damage due to the environmentla implications of their battery packs.

[Wraith]

i am astonished that in this country we dont have fields of solar panels feeding our small towns let alone our major cities. Serious advances have been made in solar technology inthe last few years, a solar panel can now produce 7 times more energy than it did 3 years ago.

My next house will be fitted with a solar unit capable of providing/storing all the electricity i need, as weel as pumping power back into the grid during the day (which i will be paid for :) ), it only costs 10k for the system fully installed, and it will pay for itself in less than 5 years. 10k on top of a house price is nothing, and now more power bills....ever.

I like this idea too...but it's still in its infancy, no doubt over time it'll become more widespread and cost alot less - just with a quick calculation of my electricity charges on my place over the past 13 years, (average of $110 o/a per quarter) shows it'll take alot longer than 5 years to recoupe 10k.....more like over 20 years.

Sounds like a good option, if given in time this kind of domestic solar installation becomes much cheaper :)

[cbrmale]

Finally I think we need to end this green image bullshit. A prius does not save the planet...its is likely to cause just as much damage due to the environmentla implications of their battery packs.

How true that is! From what I've been able to find out, the main reason for hybrids is the Japanese regard diesel engines as dirty, noisy and truck-like. So their manufacturers develop hybrids to give diesel-like fuel economy without a diesel engine.

Maybe one other problem with diesel engines (one that stopped me from buying one) is that conventional automatic gearboxes cannot handle the torque of high-performance turbo-diesel engines. Fixing this issue should be a priority for car manufacturers; if so I would buy a diesel myself.

[btm]

World greenhouse gas emissions rising faster

WORLD greenhouse gas emissions are rising faster and impacts on oceans and the atmosphere are worse than scientists thought.

A review of scientific papers by Graeme Pearman and the Climate Adaptation Science and Policy Initiative at the University of Melbourne has found worst-case scenarios produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change may have been too conservative.

Emissions accelerating

Dr Pearman, former head of the CSIRO Division of Atmospheric Research, released a report yesterday showing carbon dioxide emissions are accelerating as is the melting of Arctic and Antarctic ice.

He told a Sydney conference organised by the Centre for Economic Development Australia that carbon dioxide emissions growth exceeded IPCC's most intensive scenarios.

Gases already at dangerous levels

Dr Pearman and the university were asked by the Climate Institute to review papers not included in the latest IPCC reports.

Their report says greenhouse gases are already at a dangerous level and increasing at such an extent they would impact on the Earth's biogeophysical systems, animals and plants.

Dr Pearman said yesterday he did not want to scaremonger but governments were not reacting quickly enough to the situation.

"They talk about climate change being on the radar. But it's not, it's right outside the window," Dr Pearman said.

"It's already happening. It's a story we didn't really want to hear and we don't have decades to respond."

It comes as governments are due to discuss climate change at next month's United Nations climate conference in Bali.

Warming up by 0.8C per century

The report found average global warming was 0.8C over the past century, with recent warming growing at 0.2C per decade.

If continued, such a trend would lead to a temperature rise of about 3C by the end of this century relative to pre-industrial temperatures.

Latest observations show decreases in Arctic sea ice are occurring faster than any climate model projections.

Ice-free Arctic Ocean by 2050

Models had suggested that in a business-as-usual scenario, an ice-free Arctic Ocean might occur from 2050 to 2100 or beyond.

"But observation, if extrapolated on the basis of current trends, suggests a much earlier ice-free Arctic," the report says.

Warming in the Antarctic - one of the most rapidly warming regions of the planet - is about 0.5C per decade, compared to the global rate of 0.2C.

Sea level rises revised

IPCC projections may also have underestimated sea level rises.

One prediction is for a rise of 0.5m to 1.4m by 2100, much higher than the IPCC expects.

Projected warming of 2C to 3C "could yield sea level rise of several metres per century with eventual rise of tens of metres, enough to transform global coastlines".

Dr Pearman said, although people might see it as alarmist, warming and cooling had occurred regularly in the Earth's history.

An example of how radical change could be was that sea levels had changed 80m since the last ice age 25,000 years ago when ice covered nearly half the planet.

[btm]

but on the flip side...

Ozone hole shrinking - scientists

THE ozone layer is on track to a full recovery, with the latest sets of satellite images showing the hole is shrinking, scientists say.

"Apart from the (unusual) 2002 hole, this is the smallest hole for at least a decade," CSIRO marine and atmospheric scientist Paul Fraser said.

The hole in the ozone layer has been progressively shrinking since the phase-out of chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and halon gases in the 1990s.

"I think our long term prediction is still basically out to 2060 before we'll get long-term recovery," Dr Fraser said.

The delay is due to the long life of CFCs and halons, which can remain in the atmosphere for several decades.

"We've got this large reservoir of CFCs and halons sitting in the atmosphere, slowly leaking into the stratosphere where it does the ozone destruction," Dr Fraser said.

"The slow leakage means it will around for a long time. We're paying for the sins of the past."

Increased levels of greenhouse gases were likely to delay an ozone recovery by a few decades, he said.

"One of the less obvious impacts (of increased greenhouse gases) is the cooling in the stratosphere, which leads to much more efficient ozone destruction processes," Dr Fraser said.

"We think that the good work we've done might be delayed by 10 to 20 years," Dr Fraser said.

[Dave]

Dont we have a big arsed desert not that far away that would be good for a couple of solar farm's ? They may not do any good for the coastal city's but im sure they could be used for inland towns and such.

[blueraven]

I like this idea too...but it's still in its infancy, no doubt over time it'll become more widespread and cost alot less - just with a quick calculation of my electricity charges on my place over the past 13 years, (average of $110 o/a per quarter) shows it'll take alot longer than 5 years to recoupe 10k.....more like over 20 years.

Sounds like a good option, if given in time this kind of domestic solar installation becomes much cheaper :)

You think your power bills are going to remain the same? a little birdie (at least a litlle western australian birdie, may not apply to other states) told me that within 18 months electricity prices are going to increase by 80%. And you dont just recoup the cost by not paying a bill, the energy companies pay you for the electricity generated by your house that you do not use, since its pumping 70% of its generated power back into the grid during the day :) at current generation levels and current price, the system i am looking at will give you back $55-60 per month.

Wanna re-do your sums? ;)

Also, imagine when it comes to selling your house, what a selling point!! you will make back far more than a measly 10k when you say "oh by the way, you will never have to pay a powerbill, in fact the power companies will pay you $600+ each year....". It would work on me!

[Snotty]

Direct Exhaust Injection cars would solve emissions problem...
exhaust recirculated = no emissions :D

[dieselhead]

Um, will direct exhaust injection work for coal fired power stations, too? Now that would be nice indeed!

[Misguidedangel]

Direct Exhaust Injection cars would solve emissions problem...
exhaust recirculated = no emissions :D

bahahaha