Slight oversteer - too easy

[jsantos]

Had it happen on two occasions now, One with a full load of people once with just myself, Both on right hand turns, one on a slight incline and one a slight decline.
Basically the back has just slid around a little bit to easily I hadn't been pushing particularly hard, traction control didn't come on and i easily caught it. Just a bit concerned about why it would do it, possibly without knowing it i got of the throttle to quick or something before turning. Tyres are only 6000k's.
Basically i'm just after anyone's opinion to make sure it was a driver error and not that it's not something wrong with the car
It a stock MY07 SRIT btw

[MatsHolden]

Probably just got on the brakes to aggresively. I know the Corsa has a tendancy to want to swap ends if you are too aggressive.

[blueraven]

when i try hard to get the rear to step out i can...but normally it sticks like hell.

TS model tho, not the AH.

[rusole21]

Maybe check your tyre pressures. could be too high. Maybe just goin over a bump whilst backing off the throttle. Or it could be a rare RWD version.:D lol. how good would that be!

[low astra]

i was running 45psi in my astra g, it was easy to drift, my thoughts are backed off to fast, and perhaps didnt turn the wheels smoothly, will let go very quickly, if you had of hit the brake it would have gone even further

[Vectracious]

I know the Corsa has a tendancy to want to swap ends if you are too aggressive.

:rolleyes: :boohoo: :p :D

[USC]

can I buy your car?

[bornwild]

Let's hope they ****ed up in Belgium and put a RWD drivetrain in yours :D

[MatsHolden]

:rolleyes: :boohoo: :p :D

hahahahahaha

[luvpsi]

Had it happen on two occasions now, One with a full load of people once with just myself, Both on right hand turns, one on a slight incline and one a slight decline.
Basically the back has just slid around a little bit to easily I hadn't been pushing particularly hard, traction control didn't come on and i easily caught it. Just a bit concerned about why it would do it, possibly without knowing it i got of the throttle to quick or something before turning. Tyres are only 6000k's.
Basically i'm just after anyone's opinion to make sure it was a driver error and not that it's not something wrong with the car
It a stock MY07 SRIT btw

it is understandable if its doing it on incline/decline type of turns due to loss of traction (and possible lift off) to one or both the rear wheels when rapidly changing directions... best thing you can do is fit a rear sway bar if the AH doesnt already have one

[SKM_87]

fwd cars with loads in the back of the tend to do that. had it happen to me, and friends. it really ecentuates the effect of lift-off. tc won't come on unless u plant it trying to pull out of it.

[jsantos]

Maybe check your tyre pressures. could be too high. Maybe just goin over a bump whilst backing off the throttle. Or it could be a rare RWD version.:D lol. how good would that be!

Yeah i'm runnign 37 on the backs i think, pretty standard stuff

i wish it was ay that'd be awesome, Unfortunatly i know with alot of certainty it isn't due to the tyre wear on the fronts vs the back :onot that i slip the fronts a bit when taking off sometimes or anything like that

Thanks everyone for the advice, sounds like it was just me ****ing up, was just a bit un nerving as i wasn't doing it intentionally as i said easily caught and straightend so wasn't a problem or even near to being a problem just don't like the fact it happend with out me wanting it to. I think i need to get the car out to an advanced driving course to figure it's limits out properly. Sounds like the best modification for the car at the moment is a driver one :P

[rjastra]

Don't you have ESP on the SriT? If so, then you really shouldn't experience too much trailing throttle oversteer.

Have you checked the rear tyre pressures since the incidents? Maybe a slow leak in the left rear tyre?

[SKM_87]

oh, where you driving reasonbly hard at the time. a rear leak or a fkd rear shock will cause that too. hard 2 see you having a fkd shock thou

[cbrmale]

People think that because a car is a front wheel drive, it must understeer. Generally this is the case because of weight distribution and torque steer (putting power through the front wheels pulls the steering straight, leading to the car running wide). However, other factors come to play, including different degrees of camber change front to rear under roll, as well as relative roll stiffness front to rear (if the front has more roll stiffness than the rear, the car will be more prone to oversteer).

To minimise front wheel drive understeer, manufacturers sometimes make the front stiffer than the rear, which gives good front-end grip up to the point where the rear breaks away. I suspect the Astra is set-up this way.

My previous car (a 2000 Hyundai Elantra) had generally good handling grip and balance, but it oversteered in the tight stuff, especially in the wet (clearly more roll-stiffness on the front than the rear). My wife complained her Barina - Corsa was 'twitchy' in the wet, which I assumed to mean oversteer. I researched the tyres it came with (Pirelli P6000), and they were regarded as being poor in the wet. My research discovered the best performing tyre in the Barina's size in Australia was the Hankook Optima, which cured her twitchy wet-weather oversteer.

So any front wheel drive car can oversteer. ESP (which my AH SRi has) can help, but all ESP does is cut power and apply a brake on the sliding wheel. If you are really pushing very hard, ESP will not be able to compensate. I have deliberately tossed my SRi 2.2 into momentary oversteer just to see what it would do, ESP or no. I personally prefer oversteer on the limit, as I can keep steering the front wheels.

[GreyRex]

Had it happen on two occasions now, One with a full load of people once with just myself, Both on right hand turns, one on a slight incline and one a slight decline.
Basically the back has just slid around a little bit to easily I hadn't been pushing particularly hard, traction control didn't come on and i easily caught it. Just a bit concerned about why it would do it, possibly without knowing it i got of the throttle to quick or something before turning. Tyres are only 6000k's.
Basically i'm just after anyone's opinion to make sure it was a driver error and not that it's not something wrong with the car
It a stock MY07 SRIT btw

I 100% agree with the question you have asked. Mine's done about 5000kms now and it has happened twice to me as well. Both times I had been going quickly around a corner in the dry (but not overly so) and the back end has decided to come loose on me, with me having to apply slight opposite lock to correct it. I've thought to myself, that is crap!! I understand what people say about what manufacturers 'build' into their cars in terms of handling of oversteer and understeer, but I feel as though I cannot trust the car. I'm used to front end push in a FWD car, not rear end oversteer. I'm not sure what the combination is of driver error and manufacturer input, but it's interesting that someone else has experienced it

[rjastra]

To increase a FWD cars tendency to oversteer you increase the roll stiffness in the REAR not the front. Why else would people fit aftermarket rear anti-roll bars to FWD cars (it has been covered on here with the TS Astra)?

The ESP on an Astra H SriT should be able to quite easily handle any untoward oversteer (or understeer) in dry road conditions. It will just apply pressure on one of the brakes to control understeer or oversteer.

The other factor is driver perception. If you come from a car that displays very little rear steer (eg Corolla) into one that does it can be confused with fullblown traction loss at the rear when it does occur. All you usually have to do is wind off a bit of lock or reapply a bit of throttle. Jumping off the throttle or onto the brakes mid corner will make the weight transfer forwards, unload the rear and make any trailing throttle oversteer worse!
Once you figure out how it all works it make the car much nicer to drive (less plough understeer etc). All the best hot hatches in history have had a healthy dose of rear end steerability (306 Gti6, 205gti, ClioSport)

Another scenario we haven't discussed is that it could have been the ESP responding to a understeer situation (sharp turnin) and has try to counter this by inducing a bit of oversteer to bring the car around.

Other than that all you could do is go get the rear alignment checked. You could have some incorrect toe-in. Hard to fix on a beam axle rear end though.

[Wraith]

Had it happen on two occasions now, One with a full load of people once with just myself, Both on right hand turns, one on a slight incline and one a slight decline.
Basically the back has just slid around a little bit to easily I hadn't been pushing particularly hard, traction control didn't come on and i easily caught it. Just a bit concerned about why it would do it, possibly without knowing it i got of the throttle to quick or something before turning. Tyres are only 6000k's.
Basically i'm just after anyone's opinion to make sure it was a driver error and not that it's not something wrong with the car
It a stock MY07 SRIT btw

This is very interesting indeed and I actually had the same thing happen to me when I test drove the VXR and remember commenting to a couple of other people about it at that time, as it was one of many things that really put me off about the car, ie: the rear end was all over the place when I pushed/drove the car hard.....I'm not surprised it also occurs in the 'softer' Sri t.

[cbrmale]

To increase a FWD cars tendency to oversteer you increase the roll stiffness in the REAR not the front. Why else would people fit aftermarket rear anti-roll bars to FWD cars (it has been covered on here with the TS Astra)?

Yes, quite right, my brain must have been unplugged when I posted. My Elantra (and probably Astras and Corsas) had a relatively stiffer rear suspension compared to the front (although softer in an absolute sense because of relative weight distribution).



The ESP on an Astra H SriT should be able to quite easily handle any untoward oversteer (or understeer) in dry road conditions. It will just apply pressure on one of the brakes to control understeer or oversteer.

To a point, but if the momentum of the car is beyond that which ESP can control, then the car will slide. Accident statistics show that ESP reduces run off the road crashes, but cars fitted with ESP have bigger crashes when they happen. In other words, respect ESP, 'cause if you have a moment with it, it will be big and possibly beyond that which an average driver can manage.



The other factor is driver perception. If you come from a car that displays very little rear steer (eg Corolla) into one that does it can be confused with fullblown traction loss at the rear when it does occur. All you usually have to do is wind off a bit of lock or reapply a bit of throttle. Jumping off the throttle or onto the brakes mid corner will make the weight transfer forwards, unload the rear and make any trailing throttle oversteer worse!
Once you figure out how it all works it make the car much nicer to drive (less plough understeer etc). All the best hot hatches in history have had a healthy dose of rear end steerability (306 Gti6, 205gti, ClioSport)

I agree with you on this. As I posted my previous car had a fair degree of in-built oversteer, and it was quite well-balanced as a result. Because of this, I felt comfortable throwing my Astra into oversteer. And you are quite correct on what to do: gently reduce steering lock and DO NOT lift off the throttle or hit the brakes! With the Elantra in the wet, it was quite normal to be turning right on one of Canberra's many off-camber roundabouts with the steering wheel point straight ahead.

An early car of mine (R31 Skyline) was a viscious oversteerer, it would effortlessly go sideways anytime, and it was a nightmare in the wet. The first time I drove it was memorable: a left-curving freeway on-ramp, a wet road, gentle acceleration and a power-slide at 90 km/h! Tyres still slippery 'cause it only had delivery kilometres, but it set the scene. So for me, driving around oversteer is a natural thing.

Later versions of the R31 had the rear suspension softened to reduce oversteer.

[GreyRex]

I also got the VXR I drove by myself for an hour or so to oversteer once as well. When it happens you tend to go WHOA and just take everything off. I know people say to keep the power on, but for some that's not a natural reaction the first few times

[rjastra]

I also got the VXR I drove by myself for an hour or so to oversteer once as well. When it happens you tend to go WHOA and just take everything off. I know people say to keep the power on, but for some that's not a natural reaction the first few times

It's the sudden power off or braking while cornering that causes the big slides. So big in fact that its virtually impossible to save (without ESP).

Practise will allow you to moderate the throttle/steering smoothly to control the trailing throttle oversteer.

I think that ESP allows manufacturers to setup suspension to be a little more "unstable". Meaning the car feels more dynamic and tossable in corners, with the ESP safety net there to catch you if necessary. As I said before all the great hot hatches have a had loose feeling rear ends.

[cbrmale]

To drive a car on or over the limit, you have to take your mind out of the equation and go with natural reactions. I suspect I have it easier, as much of my early driving was with rear-drive cars with crude live-axle rear suspensions and lots of power oversteer. I also rode high performance motorcycles, which also power oversteer.

With oversteer: panic and lifting-off could cause a car to spin. Similarly, rough (not smooth) steering correction can also cause a car to spin.

Understeer is easy: lift-off and the front will bite (and maybe the rear might come around a bit). Oversteer: correct the slide and maintain momentum, but if the car still slides out of control then stand on the brakes so if you hit something, you hit it as slow as possible.

If you are driving within your capabilities, it should all happen like a slow-motion film - the slide and correction seem to take ages, you can even watch your hands (like me watching the steering wheel on my Elantra while sideways in the wet). If it isn't slow motion, you are driving beyond your capabilities.

[MatsHolden]

As I said before all the great hot hatches have a had loose feeling rear ends.

True. I think it's a good think to have a little bit of. Interesting though, driving my car back to back with an AH SRi-T on track and the SRi-T didn't feel at all like it wanted to swap ends, felt very stable. The Corsa kept me on my toes a bit more.