Is the Adventra a poor excuse for a SUV?

[jch75]

Is the Adventra a poor excuse for a SUV? A Commodore wagon with bigger wheels.....I don't think it really compares with the Toyato Kluger or Ford Territory.

Any goss on a real SUV to be produced?

[JP Dyno]

Personally i think its silly comparing them (Even though the magazines think otherwise). Very different cars overall. The Adventras closest rivals
are the XC70, Audi Allroad and maybe the Subaru outback.
The Adventra -IS- a jack up, All-Wheel drive commodore wagon, and i dont think it was ever meant to be anything more, and if anyone thinks the territory is anything more than a modified Falcon, your dreaming.

if you want a real Offroader (which is what im assuming you mean by SUV), Buy a landcruiser.

[FlySri]

I've heard that the Adventra comes from the states as a part wagon. All they do here is bolt the dash and front ends on !!!

[Nem]

No the Cruz is though! Like a suzuki Jimny IMHO.
http://www.holden.com.au//images/colourandtrim/cruze/img_SpiritedSilver.jpg
Cheers
Ben

[FlySri]

I didn't think so !!!!
Never listen to friends on the turps !!!! :oops:

[JP Dyno]

FlySri > I dont work on the line, but i seriously doubt that *LOL*

Nem > its actually a Suzuki Ignis. All Holden did was modify the drivetrain to a kindof shoddy AWD (its 2wd until it loses traction and the rest kick in until it gains it again) and modified the tail lights
check it out :
Ignis (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/roadtests/roadtest_828_1.html)

[rjastra]

I've heard that the Adventra comes from the states as a part wagon. All they do here is bolt the dash and front ends on !!!


All i can say is.... :roll:

[jch75]

Personally i think its silly comparing them (Even though the magazines think otherwise). Very different cars overall. The Adventras closest rivals
are the XC70, Audi Allroad and maybe the Subaru outback.
The Adventra -IS- a jack up, All-Wheel drive commodore wagon, and i dont think it was ever meant to be anything more, and if anyone thinks the territory is anything more than a modified Falcon, your dreaming.

if you want a real Offroader (which is what im assuming you mean by SUV), Buy a landcruiser.

Good points.......................! But like you say, all the reviews compare the Holden, Toyota & Ford. I might say though, Toyota and Ford have shown a lot more effort than Holden for the SUV market. I do agree the Territory is very much based on a Falcon, but it still resembles a small version 4WD truckster as with the Kluger.

I think this does highlight a big underlying problem for Holden.........once again they are relying on the Commodore platform for everything. We have a Monaro that looks good but is a two door Commodore - if you don't like Commodore, you probably won't like Monaro. The Adventra - a jacked up Commodore. I think Holden need to think long and hard because a better option maybe importable or maybe they need to spend some $$$ to get a second production line going. The Commodore is the backbone of Holden, all these imported barinas and astra etc merely build up a product range but I think it is really time for Holden to come out, take a leap forward and stop glorifying the Commodore. I think it reflects poorly on the company.

[Anonymous]

Pretty Much all SUV apart from the Adventura and Terrority are Around the Same Size as a Holden Frontera/Isuzu MU Wizard.
http://www3.alpha-net.ne.jp/users/toki/200404100444.jpg
But due to our Crumbling $AUD Holden couldn't afford to Import them From Japan due to sales and Price per Unit.
Thats Why Holden designed the Cross8 Concept and waited for Public Interest.

And as Rjastra Said, Your thinking of the Chevrolet Suburban, They Came here as PKD(Partial Knock Down). Then the RHD Dash from the Brazil C1500 and Silverado was installed and Holden added a Extra 45cm of Dash to the End due to the C1500 is a Narrower Vehicle.

[jch75]

I think the Cross8 is a good thing along with the SSX........................thats what they need to do - start diversifying.

[SmellyTofu]

From what I've read, the software for the Cross8 system comes out of the Hummer.

What's SUV? I think even my Forester could out-do an Adventra off road. None of these traction control fang dangly bits. Just a viscous centre diff + rear LSD and we're set.

[SmellyTofu]

And as Rjastra Said, Your thinking of the Chevrolet Suburban, They Came here as PKD(Partial Knock Down). Then the RHD Dash from the Brazil C1500 and Silverado was installed and Holden added a Extra 45cm of Dash to the End due to the C1500 is a Narrower Vehicle.

That's so dodgy and expected with Holdens.. anything that's not a Dunnydore they will try to skimp on cost. I've never been in a Suburban except looking at it from the outside and the looks says it all.

[Rhino]

What do you mean 'even my Forester' Smelly?
It's not like Foresters are crap!

jch75 - Ford and Toyota NEED to make an effort. Their product range is very limited compared to Holden.

Holden in my opinion are like Sony and the PS2. It isn't the latest and greatest, but it is solid and reliable, and every now and then they make a small change to get on top of the market again - then everyone else plays catch up to try and keep some of the market share.

[dazza015]

My opinion is and always has been is that the Adventura was a hastily deveoloped Jacked up wagon with AWD to compete against the Ford Territory, Ford didnt keep many secrets about the vehicle, Ie most of us new what the territory looked like and what features it would have ages ago. Early on I saw the information on the Territory and I knew then Ford were on a winner, also not a secret was the large amount of money Ford poured into the Territory project, spearheaded by then Ford australia president Geoff Polities. Holden had to do something and quick, so they slapped together the Adventura and presto! released it before the Territory!

But in reality we are comparing Chalk and cheese, The Territory being a genuine crossover vehicle, Part Car, Part four wheel drive, part people mover using technology from the succesful BA falcon platform. Whereas the Adventura is a jacked up Commodore Wagon with AWD full stop, Granted they chucked in a V8 but that was to appeal to the masses,(maybe to make up for power deficiencies with thier V6 through the AWD drivetrain maybe??)

Thats my 2 cents anyway

In the end its only my opinon but I think my opinon is backed up by magazines such as wheels who said things like "Australia builds an (BMW) X5" Big compliment, plus the Territory was winning awards before it was released.

[SmellyTofu]

But reading the test online of all those "cross overs" is that they aren't all that capable offroad. Not that majority of the owners care coz all the dirt they'll see is the dirt on Parramatta Rd.

I haven't tested my Forester off road full. I've done dirt roads and maybe a tiny bit of beachwork but I'd love to get it on the beach and just drive. I'll get it on snow this weekend. See how that goes.

[agent69]

My opinion is and always has been is that the Adventura was a hastily deveoloped Jacked up wagon with AWD to compete against the Ford Territory

Agree with that one, dazza015. It's a big war between Holden and Ford. Holden has to do something to make itself visible. Whatever Ford is going to do, Holden has to do it first and it can afford to do it. This campaign will give Holden the perception of being the first and better than Ford, IMHO. :)

IMO, I think Holden has done a pretty good job on delivering the Commodore since the VT.

[Molky]

Putting this all into perspective what Holden has done in the last few years is pretty incredible. Holden is a small company operating in a small market, it is GM's most successful brand, and continually returns good profits and excellent market share.

jch75: you say that holden relies on the 'commodore' for everything, that is true but it's a GM platform, the platform for the next new commodore is the sigma platform, which will be widely used by GM, feature in Holdens line as the commodore, Cadilac as the CTS, Saab, Opel etc. A car platform is not a cheap thing to develop, and it is usually used by a few car manufacturers to save $$$.

You know the Porsche Cayenne and VW Toureg share the same? Or the Audi A3 and VW Golf? Or the Mazda 2 and Ford Fiesta just to name a couple.

You say the Adventra is a jacked up Commodore, and on the outside it is, there are basically no sheet metal changes (read dollars saved) but I think you will find that under it's skin there was a fair amount of work done to get the AWD happening, but how is that really different to the SSX and Cross 8, because the Cross 8 is mechanically the same as the Adventra, just a dual cab ute instead of a wagon.

Im not trying to start a war here its just I feel we have to put it into perspective of what Holden does with it's money and resources is pretty incredible

[jch75]

Putting this all into perspective what Holden has done in the last few years is pretty incredible. Holden is a small company operating in a small market, it is GM's most successful brand, and continually returns good profits and excellent market share.

jch75: you say that holden relies on the 'commodore' for everything, that is true but it's a GM platform, the platform for the next new commodore is the sigma platform, which will be widely used by GM, feature in Holdens line as the commodore, Cadilac as the CTS, Saab, Opel etc. A car platform is not a cheap thing to develop, and it is usually used by a few car manufacturers to save $$$.

You know the Porsche Cayenne and VW Toureg share the same? Or the Audi A3 and VW Golf? Or the Mazda 2 and Ford Fiesta just to name a couple.

You say the Adventra is a jacked up Commodore, and on the outside it is, there are basically no sheet metal changes (read dollars saved) but I think you will find that under it's skin there was a fair amount of work done to get the AWD happening, but how is that really different to the SSX and Cross 8, because the Cross 8 is mechanically the same as the Adventra, just a dual cab ute instead of a wagon.

Im not trying to start a war here its just I feel we have to put it into perspective of what Holden does with it's money and resources is pretty incredible

Dude - stop defending the company and start encouraging them to provide more to its customers. I like Holdens and I want to see more!

If Holden is GMs greatest bread winner then surely they can splurge to produce some more innovative products. I have owned a Commodore - a very good product, some what conservative, however they need to diversify the product range............Commodore is getting a bit boring on its own. I understand that Holden will be producing a new platform that will be used for other brands as well as the VE. The new 190kw V6 engine will also been seen in other vehicle brands. That is saying alot for the great work that has been done here in Australia. However, as a consumer, I want to see products other than Commodore and its varients. I want to see some innovation. The new VE shape will be innovative - thats for sure. It's going to be EURO. The VE may even be a good time to give the Commodore name the flick and come up with something new. A change of image. I am sure the VE is going to be of great quality - far better than any Commodore we have already seen.

The SSX is something different because it would be the first locally built Holden hatch for a long time. The Cross8 is something different because it is a ute with 4 doors. Sure - still based on Commodore but at least these are new concepts................its a small step forward.

I'm just saying, Holden should take some risks. I just want to be blown away by some new locally made products that reflect our engineering capabilities and use those capabilities to their fullest. I want to see something that show cases what we can do here in Australia. To be a market leader, you need to be first in, you need to take risks, you need to go to extreme measures. I don't want to hear Germany or Japan produce the best cars.......................

Couple of mild examples of companys doing something different: Ford XR6T & Cadilac Sixteen................ There are entire markets that Holden has refused to enter. Take rally for example....................there is not one Holden in the Australian Rally Championship......(apart from when Brock does Targa Tasmania in a Monaro).........and I think that is pretty poor.........perhaps they could develop the SSX, supercharge the V8 and whoop some butt in their AWD hatch in the Aussie Rally Champ and then perhaps start to look at the International exposure. Thats basically what Subaru did - they were building ordinary cars and then they came out with this world better WRX and have never looked back................ People around the world won't buy a Holden GTS, people are buying Mitsubishi EVOs and Subaru WRX because they are the fastest going around in that market. If you bring out a new, better product the market will turn especially if on the track you actually perform. It would be tough because obviously Holden has concentrated on V8 Supercars (which doesnt reflect the production car anyway) so they would need to hire some rally bred expertise but this is just one instance of how Holden should be opening the gates and going full on. But it takes BALLS.

[Molky]

Holden have taken risks, the Monaro was a huge risk, but it certainly paid off. I believe Holden have got the market pretty well covered, they supply a vehicle to most of the relevant markets in Australia.

You say people around the world wont buy a GTS, well the UK just recieved their latest shipments and they were pretty much all accounted for, the Yanks want them pretty bad.

Commodore boring? You haven't driven a VY2 SS im guessing, because they are certainly a pretty exciting drive. Ok an executive or an Acclaim isn't the most exciting thing around but look at what it's marketed for, I love my work VY wagon because it does a fantastic job for what it's designed for. It's not the quickest thing on the planet or the most refined or the most handling orientated thing, but it does what it's designed for. Look at the Acclaim, it's not designed to be a sporty car, it's aimed at families and it's main aim is safety.

You seem to be looking at this only from a "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" point of view and the fact of the matter is that the people who buy these cars only make up a very small percentage of Holden's sales, so it would be silly to alienate the people who are buying the majority of the products.

How is the XR6T an entirely different market?? Last time I checked it was under the "Family sport sedan" class just like the SS and XR8, just because it has a turbo on it doesn't make it in it's own "entire market" With that logic, the Astra SRiT is an "entire different market" to its little brother SRi, doesn't make sense does it?

Holden has played with forced induction on their V6, remember the Supercharged V6 currently available in the Commodore range, the technology is dated yes, but the HFV6 will have a forced induction option to compete with Fords Turbo 6.

Oh and expect big things from Holden in the next few years, things like the rebirth of the Torana, all is not lost

[JP Dyno]

Holden are doing incredible things with the commodore platform. The amount of variants that have grown from a platform that was originally meant only for sedans is almost insane, and doing this all on minimal finances. This is the sort of thing that has made the entire car industry around the world look up, and why Holden is playing such a big part in the Zeta platform. They cant afford to have a new platform for every car market they produce. Ford Australia is exactly the same, The only Aussie stuff is falcon-based, the rest is imported.

I wouldnt call the XR6 Turbo a risk. Its a good car with a great new engine (Holden will have a great new engine soon too) that they managed to build and sell at an awesome price. Any car company would jump at the chance to release a car like that, It hasnt opened any new doors. Infact, if anything the entire BA falcon range was the most un-risky thing Ford could have done. They took a risk with the styling of the AU and fell flat on their face and they had to release something alot more conservative. something that would DEFINATLY sell, or else they would have been in a very very sticky position. Risk-taking wasnt an option.

And the Cadillac Sixteen, awesome concept, (Think its going into production later this decade??), But Holden could never afford to produce a car like that on its budget. The concept however cost about the same as the SSX....which for us is just as groundbreaking.

As for markets holden 'refuse' to enter, i seriously doubt it. They just built a $10 million innovation center to find new markets to go into. When they have the right car to compete in Rally i have no doubts they will, But Christ almighty they are a mighty small fish in a huge ocean, you can expect them to develop a new platform to be used in cars all over the world as well as make a big money-concept car with a ground-break 20 cylinder engine, a new low budget turbo'd sports sedan, a dedicated tough-as-nails 4WD, an AWD supercharged V8 rally car all ready to go into production on a platform that is going to be in the dumpster in less than 2 years.

Give Holden $100 million, and Any other car company $100 million dollars and see who gets more out of it. I know who I'll be betting on.

[Anonymous]

I wouldnt call the XR6 Turbo a risk. Its a good car with a great new engine (Holden will have a great new engine soon too) that they managed to build and sell at an awesome price. Any car company would jump at the chance to release a car like that, It hasnt opened any new doors. Infact, if anything the entire BA falcon range was the most un-risky thing Ford could have done. They took a risk with the styling of the AU and fell flat on their face and they had to release something alot more conservative. something that would DEFINATLY sell, or else they would have been in a very very sticky position. Risk-taking wasnt an option.

The BA Falcon was a Deliberate Backflip by Ford. In 2001 Ford contacted nearly every AU,AUII,AUIII Owner by Phone or Mail, And Asked them to fill out a Detailed Pros & Cons Questionare of the AU. Then Ford took all that Info on Board to design the BA. The XR6 Turbo was going to Be released in the AUII XR Series, But Ford had to sort out a Few Bugs and the Main one was ADR Rules. The 1st Turbo Engine assembled by Cosworth Jaguar for Tickford was a Bee Dick over 320kw at the Flywheel and it wasn't going pass ADR and Our Fuel was Crap. So thats why it was Released in the BA Series.

[JP Dyno]

i figured it would've originally been ticked off for AUIII or something, that makes sense. Still hardly a risk,

[jch75]

Holden have taken risks, the Monaro was a huge risk, but it certainly paid off. I believe Holden have got the market pretty well covered, they supply a vehicle to most of the relevant markets in Australia.

You say people around the world wont buy a GTS, well the UK just recieved their latest shipments and they were pretty much all accounted for, the Yanks want them pretty bad.

Commodore boring? You haven't driven a VY2 SS im guessing, because they are certainly a pretty exciting drive. Ok an executive or an Acclaim isn't the most exciting thing around but look at what it's marketed for, I love my work VY wagon because it does a fantastic job for what it's designed for. It's not the quickest thing on the planet or the most refined or the most handling orientated thing, but it does what it's designed for. Look at the Acclaim, it's not designed to be a sporty car, it's aimed at families and it's main aim is safety.

You seem to be looking at this only from a "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" point of view and the fact of the matter is that the people who buy these cars only make up a very small percentage of Holden's sales, so it would be silly to alienate the people who are buying the majority of the products.

How is the XR6T an entirely different market?? Last time I checked it was under the "Family sport sedan" class just like the SS and XR8, just because it has a turbo on it doesn't make it in it's own "entire market" With that logic, the Astra SRiT is an "entire different market" to its little brother SRi, doesn't make sense does it?

Holden has played with forced induction on their V6, remember the Supercharged V6 currently available in the Commodore range, the technology is dated yes, but the HFV6 will have a forced induction option to compete with Fords Turbo 6.

Oh and expect big things from Holden in the next few years, things like the rebirth of the Torana, all is not lost

Just to follow on from your comments. Firstly - I am not bagging the current product range. Secondly, I think you are totally missing my point.

I don't call a two door Commodore (Monaro) a huge risk. If ever you were going to play safe with a new product, that would be it. It was very cost effective because of its heritage. How much safer could you play?

I know that Vauxhall have just taken on Monaro and Pontiac are using it for their GTO. Pretty good - tells me the product is obviously impressing people. BUT it's still a Commdore variant. I am sure other countries will love our roomy powerful Commdore - but they haven't had them on their roads for the past 15 years. Just another point, the overseas markets are going for our premium products - over our $65000 mark which is not particularly affordable hence alienating (as you like to say) who can buy your brand. You aren't going to see too many on the roads, unlike say a WRX which is a only $42000 - maybe thats why Rexs are just a common as Commodores these days. Having said that a WRX doesnt stack up against Holden premium products - not in my opinion anyway. I do realise that the middle-east & alike are buying the budget Commodores too.

Have I driven a VYSS - yep taken one for an overnight test drive. Very nice BUT still a Commdore.

In relation to this comment:
You seem to be looking at this only from a "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" point of view and the fact of the matter is that the people who buy these cars only make up a very small percentage of Holden's sales, so it would be silly to alienate the people who are buying the majority of the products.

Who is being alientated when I am talking about ADDing to a product range? Also, are you telling me people who are looking for "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" are a small share of Holden buyers? No joke - because Holden doesn't actually have a product that is "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" so why would you buy a Holden (other than if you are a mullett wearing v8 lover - they do (Im being sarcastic), but u should see my point)? Holden only supply modified Commodores.......BORING. VERY NICE CARS - especially your Calais up etc..........but still BORING after how many years? AND I'm not saying get rid of the family Car range (maybe drop the Commodore name from the VE) - I'm saying ONCE AGAIN..........they need to add to their product base. People who want "exciting, sporting, adrenaline" are buying other cars. Sure Holden can plod along doing what it is doing but it is currently a good time for them to take a real strangle hold and boost their range and image (whilst they are in the process of developing new products ie VE).

How is the XR6T an entirely different market?? When did I say XR6T was a risk? I never said it was a entirely different market............ All I said was they have mildly added to their product range. Now that XR6T is a kick arse car - with $500 worth a tweaking, I'm pretty sure the SS wouldn't get close. Personally, I don't like that because I don't particularly like Ford but it would be true & the XR6T is near enough to 10 grand cheaper. Its a terrific product. The point I was making, no other Aussie Car is a V6 Turbo - so yes they have done something different because most traditional Aussies are into V8s (& blowers) and Ford have looked for people wanting performance out of their family car without a Petrol Chomping V8 and lead the way in this instance. The XR6T wasnt a risk becos it is a damn good product and so it was always gonna be a winner................but it is a first for a long time. I gather u can see that when u r out on the road - there are far more XR6T than XR8s. BUT LETS NOT DWELL ON THIS POINT.

The Commdore S - what a joke. A whimpy 20kw more than the stock car (around 170kw) - surely they could have whacked in a decent supercharger to get to 200+ kw from stock 152kw. They should have done that years ago. The Commodore S makes me laugh. Magnas are running a 180kw V6 with no forced induction. Thats the same as the bloody VT Senators with the 5.0ltr V8. Surely that is saying something. When they get this new 190kw engine - they should be able to get somewhere near 300kw with some decent supercharging on the v6 and if they dont do that, they need a kick up that backside. No point bringing out a Commdore S they just sits under the SS. To be honest, they should supercharge the future V8s too. But if they dont, wouldn't it be better anyway if the force induction 6 offered better performance (more buyers) than the 8 since the 8 is a Chevy import and the 6 will be built by Holden in Victoria. $$$ spin off.

Ur last comment - "Oh and expect big things from Holden in the next few years, things like the rebirth of the Torana, all is not lost". I was going to say originally that the SSX could be the rebirth of the Torana. And yes i agree, i do expect big things from Holden in the next few years starting with the VE.

My point is, SS, SENATORS, GTS & MONARO are all GREAT cars - but they are all basically the same car and Holden should be looking to add to that product range by perhaps building a second midsize platform for cars such as SSX and any other possibilities. Then maybe Opel will import SSX instead of Holden importing Vectras \ Calibras and the like - providing the product is better than what is currently being offered.

Forget why Holden have concentrated on the family car for 20 years - its time for change and now is the prime time to add to their range. Whilst they are ahead, the should be looking to rub their competitors heads in the sand. Not wait for others to take the initiative.

Holden has proved it can produce great products - look at the 427 Coupe - but why didnt they deliver? If they built 100 (or whatever the number was), they would have been bought. Anything that goes 0 - 100 in 4 something seconds will attract buyers. Do you think the Yanks wouldn't have a super GTO - yeah right. They would love it. This is an example of Holden being too conservative.

Holden is part of GM, number 1 Car Manufacturer in the world.............it can leverage off of that to build better products at reduced cost.......like Holden have by borrowing the 5.7ltr engine..........what do u think the new VE platford is all about......................well, they should be doing that on multiple platforms. The platform can come from elsewhere as long as they whack on their own shell and other Holden bits.

I dont see the point about Ford Australia only producing Falcons, Mitsubishi producing Magnas - good. That is another reason Holden should branch out - to be the first in, be innovative, lead the way, be proactive.................and produce its own midsize car borrowing bits here and there. A new car, with a new image can still work along side cars like Commodore using the same platform, but just using a different shell.

Don't get me wrong, the new direction doesnt have to be performance cars - rally and competing with wrx / evos was just an example.

[JP Dyno]

sorry, doublepost

[JP Dyno]

well, they should be doing that on multiple platforms. The platform can come from elsewhere as long as they whack on their own shell and other Holden bits.
So, in essence, what your saying is instead of selling lots of variants of the cars designed and built in australia (because your obviously sick of commodores and monaros), import more stuff, like the opels, and re-badge them as holdens? (maybe ad some sheet metal changes, and mechanical bits ala Cruze?)


surely they could have whacked in a decent supercharger to get to 200+ kw from stock 152kw
That would have been far to expensive to engineer on such an old engine. simple as that.


A new car, with a new image can still work along side cars like Commodore using the same platform, but just using a different shell.
That sounds like your describing what they ARE doing. The current platform Holden works with makes it very difficult to change the look and shape of the car (which its why its so amazing they have done what they have done), Thats where VE comes in - a platform so versatile that they can build sedans, LWB and SWB, hatchbacks, utes, coupes, convertibles, wagons and whatever else they can think of all AWD or RWD and they can make them look so different they can be made into cars from any other manufacturer and still look the part.
What else do you want them to do?

[Molky]

The Monaro was a risk, but not a business critical risk. It was an emotional risk with a car that captured the imagination of the nation. If the car wasn't received the way it was, it would have really hurt Holden's reputation.

How much power will you get for $500 with an XR6 turbo? I know that with the LS1 you can get a Mafless tune using the LS1edit tuning tool for about a $1000 and will be good for about 300kw.

" and Ford have looked for people wanting performance out of their family car without a Petrol Chomping V8" - I highly doubt that was their aim when they created the XR6T or they failed(which I doubt), because the XR6T uses as much if not more fuel than the LS1!

"I gather u can see that when u r out on the road - there are far more XR6T than XR8s." - Yes that is certainly correct, but it isn't just because it's got that magical turbo on it, but because it is an all round better package. The XR8 is heavier, more expensive, doesnt handle as well and uses more fuel.


"the XR6T is near enough to 10 grand cheaper" - XR6T auto - $46005, SS - $50490- I could be wrong here but that isn't near 10 grand difference.

"Holden has proved it can produce great products - look at the 427 Coupe - but why didnt they deliver? If they built 100 (or whatever the number was), they would have been bought. Anything that goes 0 - 100 in 4 something seconds will attract buyers. Do you think the Yanks wouldn't have a super GTO - yeah right. They would love it. This is an example of Holden being too conservative." - an example of Holden being conservative? You couldn't be any futher from the truth, firstly Holden had nothing to do with the decision, it was HSV's, they are two seperate companies, and once again HSV is a very small company.

To make the 427 financially viable (ie not to make a loss) they had to either make 100 of them opposed to the 50 originally slated for production, or sell them for $300,000 instead of the original price of $215000. Now option one was out as HSV didnt want to make any more than 50 as it detracts from its exclusiveness. And finding 50 people to pay that extra money wasn't something they wanted to ask of their loyal customers. But dont worry HSV will make a supercar one day.

[jch75]

You guys obviously love your Holdens...................................

[jch75]

well, they should be doing that on multiple platforms. The platform can come from elsewhere as long as they whack on their own shell and other Holden bits.
So, in essence, what your saying is instead of selling lots of variants of the cars designed and built in australia (because your obviously sick of commodores and monaros), import more stuff, like the opels, and re-badge them as holdens? (maybe ad some sheet metal changes, and mechanical bits ala Cruze?)

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! I am saying that they can share components etc. The car should still be a Holden. If you can't see a Barina is a poor degrading excuse for a Holden.....................I want a locally produced product that is much better than the imported crap. Astras are getting much better - they weren't always a decent car, the Vectra is very nice (BUT AN SSX SHOULD REPLACE IT) .......................but Barina..............needs to be decommissioned. PLEASE.


surely they could have whacked in a decent supercharger to get to 200+ kw from stock 152kw
That would have been far to expensive to engineer on such an old engine. simple as that.

EXCUSES EXCUSES.


A new car, with a new image can still work along side cars like Commodore using the same platform, but just using a different shell.
That sounds like your describing what they ARE doing. The current platform Holden works with makes it very difficult to change the look and shape of the car (which its why its so amazing they have done what they have done), Thats where VE comes in - a platform so versatile that they can build sedans, LWB and SWB, hatchbacks, utes, coupes, convertibles, wagons and whatever else they can think of all AWD or RWD and they can make them look so different they can be made into cars from any other manufacturer and still look the part.
What else do you want them to do?

YEP - THAT WOULD BE RIGHT.......................IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. BUT THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING. ONLY THAT APART FROM A LOCALLY PRODUCED FAMILY CAR, THEY SHOULD ALSO BE PUMPING OUT ANOTHER PRODUCT FROM OZ TO REPLACE THE IMPORTS OR ONE OF.

[JP Dyno]

'excuses excuses'??

i could build a reliable twin turbo v12 commodore in my backyard if i had the money to do it. call me when it starts rainging cash.

[jch75]

I see your point mate, but ur looking at this from a conservative business perspective. As a Holden client, I like home grown product and want to see more of the home grown stuff.

As I said above, cars like barina, cruze don't do Holden any image favours. Its a bit like when Holden were selling Toyotas as Novas and Toyota were selling Holdens as Lexcen - obviously they were trying to fill a gap in their line up but most people on the road thought "twin cam" Holden ???? what a joke.

[JP Dyno]

Well you really have to look at it in a business perspective, As much as we all wish otherwise, Holden doesnt have an endless supply of money from GM. I wouldnt say the past few years from Holden have been conservative, far from it. Look what happened with the GTR-X, It crippled the whole company. We all want good new Australian products but just getting up, designing and building your entire product base from scratch isnt that simple.

Im sorry if i sound biased or something, but i refuse to listen to Holden being badmouthed for not doing something that is financially impossible for them to do, especially since they are doing such a good job with what money they do have.

[Anonymous]

is this thread going backwards and forwards like a ping pong game? :bang:

[dug74]

Is this thread about the Adventra or are we just car bashin holden....

I think you all should rethink and wonder why Holden are the #1 car company in Australia.....and they didnt get that way selling imports <OPEL> or exporting o/seas...

So....in other words... Commodores = sales = profit = new products

We have a big country and travel heaps due to our laid back life style and most Australians want a comfortable family car that is reliable and cheap...if you want power and other options then you pay more and get a upmarket commodore variant....i dont think holden personally care if consumers wanna rush off and buy a WRX or EVO lancer....becoz that is only a small minority or mitsashiti wouldnt be going broke in Oz

[dazza015]

Some facts relating to comments above

(Taken from www.airpowersystems.com.au (http://www.airpowersystems.com.au)& Wheels Magazine)

HSV GTS 300 $94,750.00
300kw, 240 Rear wheel kw, Qtr Mile 13.9

XR6 Turbo + Phase 1 APS Kit ($1590.00 Fitted)$46,900.00 (inc APS Kit)
295kw, 235 Rear Wheel kw, Qtr Mile 13.61

XR6 Turbo + Phase 2 APS Kit ($5650.00 Fitted) $50,370.00 (inc APS Kit)
330kw, 283 Rear Wheel Kw, Qtr Mile 13.3

XR6 Turbo + Phase 3 APS Kit ($9500.00 Fitted Approx) $54,535.00 (inc APS kit)
400kw, 350 Rear Wheel Kw, Qtr Mile 10.98
(Top speed runs in this car have reached 307kph!) This car has also run some 140 dyno runs, numerous qtr mile runs as well as copping a thrashing from motoring journo's Aps reports that the standard drivetrain has held up and as yet has had no problems whatsoever.

From Air Power Systems

The Next Phases
Psssst. Wanna hear about Phase IV, and even Phase IV?

Among the Phase IV’s numerous tweaks, the top half of the inlet manifold has been replaced with a custom-designed plenum to house an additional six injectors that supply fuel for more than 500kW of crankshaft power.

APS’s Peter Luxon also reveals that, in testing, the Phase IV system has produced over 400kW of rear-wheel power, and there’s plenty left.

Phase V is on the drawing board, says Luxon, but the engine’s innards will need serious beefing-up. Pistons and conrods will be replaced with heavy duty items, with the turbocharger upgraded to a much larger 700kW-capable compressor.

With the right set-up and tuning, says Luxon, “One thousand horsepower, in the old money, shouldn’t be out of the question.” Gulp.


Saw an APS tweaked XR6T the other day with a sticker "HSV I just beat one!!"

After reading that and hearing some of the things the XR6T boys say I have no trouble believing it! That aside, bang for your buck wise this is the best value bang for you buck in an aussie car. Period.

[Jass]

The XR6 is a beast, bottom line.

[JP Dyno]

i dont think anyone denied that the XR6-T is a car modifiers wet dream...

[dazza015]

Sorry..... My Post was in relation to Molkys Statement below



How much power will you get for $500 with an XR6 turbo? I know that with the LS1 you can get a Mafless tune using the LS1edit tuning tool for about a $1000 and will be good for about 300kw.

[JP Dyno]

oh yeah, i remember thinking a similar thing when i read that too

[Molky]

I dont deny the XR6T has huge mod potential at all, I was just asking the question of what you can get for $500

[jch75]

Nah - this isn't Holden bashing. This is praising them up and saying that they do such a good job they should bring out more products to whoop the imports.

Toyota is now number 1 car for Aussie Sales because of its midsize range and affordability. Holdens Commodore is the # 1 family car.

I have just suggested that from the VE, Holden should look to produce its own midsize car as well as the Commodore (because the Commodore is such a good product and some of the imports [Barina & Cruze] are questionable). With the VE, they should look to shake the common image and perhaps lose the Commodore name. I am also suggesting that they avoid basing all non-family car products on the Commodore. Adventura is based on Commodore where as all competitor produced a new product for the SUV market.

[jch75]

Just reading Saturdays Advertiser (Adelaide) - a day late of course. In the Cars Guide section there are to interesting articles relevant to this thread. One is about MG-Rover stating they are importing the ZR-X V8 Hatch to Australia............to take on WRX, Renault Clio Sport, Peugeot 180 GTi.........hmmmmmmmmmmmm sounds just like the car I said Holden should bring out, a V8 AWD Hatch called SSX or Torana..........

The other article was about AWD Kluger, Territory & Adventra. It says that Adventra is far more than a glorified SS Wagon but said it wasnt very refined and bashed and crashed over the tougher terrain where as theother cars cruised on over. They took all three cars for a test, commented on them but didnt rate them or put together a conclusion which makes it a pretty meaningless article - obviously as a reader or buyer, u want to know which one is best as they are all very close in price, just in case of couse u were look to buy a car. Anyway, the most interesting point I found was that Ford spent $500 million to develop the Territory where as Holden spent $125 million in development. Also interestingly, the Kluger uses the same engine as the Lexus RX330....................who says Toyota and Lexus aren't the same thing............

[jch75]

Someone mentioned Monaro being exported to the UK & US.............well read this..........http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,9869627%255E21822,00.html . Monaro is missing its mark - sales for the Pontiac GTO are not as grand as expected. Hmmmmmmmm.

Also an article about Torana
http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,9870632%255E21822,00.html - quite interesting and relevant to this thread also. Torana won the 1971 Australian Rally Championship.

[jch75]

Having read these articles - I think a few people who have commented should have a little rethink, particluarly the articles in the Saturday Advertiser re: AWD comparisons and the MG ZR-X V8 Hatch.

[JP Dyno]

i think you'll find the fact that the SSX was built was to guage customer reaction to a V8 AWD hatch, and the reaction seemed pretty good. Its probably on the mark for VE sometime in the future.

[jch75]

i think you'll find the fact that the SSX was built was to guage customer reaction to a V8 AWD hatch, and the reaction seemed pretty good. Its probably on the mark for VE sometime in the future.

Agreed mate. There is definately a spot there for someone who wants to take it. I wouldn't mind seeing an SSX Torana or a Torana SSX...........does that go? That would be awesome. 300KW V8 AWD Hatch ...............................yep................ .. that would be awesome. Not to mention on the track in the likes of Procar etc...............it would be a hit. Peter Floyd in that big arse GTS would love to be in the hatch, those RS32 Golfs would have no chance..................the Golfs are nice though too.............

[jch75]

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,9939816%255E21822,00.html

Yep - sales are down, because the product isn't up to spec................for a SUV anyway. Maybe they should have spent the $500 million as Ford did on the Territory to create that better or more suitable product. Obviously saving on development costs ($125m) is starting to hurt them. Once again - too conservative. Didn't want to risk pumping out a product that were uneasy about and hence have done a half arsed job and are now suffering. HOLDEN - if u want be around in 50 years...................LIFT UR GAME!