Heel and toe downshifting?

[Mainframe_Module]

just wondering how many people here use this technique? ive been reading up on it and it sounds interesting, i dont get to drive a manual again until this friday so i might try it then.
though im assuming its not as easy as it looks and sounds.

comments? tips?

[Vectracious]

No, its not as easy as it sounds and takes a lot of practice, even the placement of the pedals in the car can affect how well you can heel and toe - eg much easier to do it in the WRX than it is in the Astra.

I heel/toe when pushing hard on a windy road somewhere, however in day to day driving I only ocassionally use it just to smooth out the downshift more than anything else....

[R3N]

I heel-toe most of the time, esp on windy roads or when i go into a turn really late. On the G, the accelerator pedal sits a little too low compared to the brake pedal for my liking. some people fix this by fitting an aftermarket (eg. Sparco, MoMo) on just the accelerator pedal to sort of bring it up higher. Anywho, if you get used to it you won't have a problem. I've been playing around with it heaps and its so smooth when you get it right.

Tips are to brake late and brake hard, that way the car won't jerk (as I have found when easing onto the brakes rather than braking hard) and then it will bring the brake pedal down to the accelerator pedal. An easier way would be to put the clutch in, rev up the engine, then engage a lower gear. Same theory, except without the braking.

[entice]

Is dead easy on teh STI, and teh MX5.. even on the 30+yr old 124... makes for a much nicer/smoother downshift, and "mesh-in" of the gears.

once you master it.. try flatshifting :)

[TonyfromOz]

I first learned how to do this with my first Corolla back in 1969/70.
It took a little practice to get used to it, but I found that doing it just slowing down without actually braking helped, and then once you got used to it, then add the braking. It takes practice, but I found myself doing it all the time right up to getting my first Automatic, our Astra, last year.
Once I got used to it, it proved beneficial, because getting it right, the engine itself could then assist in the slowing process. Another distinct advantage was that, correctly used, upon arrival at the turning point, you are now in the optimum gear in the correct power range to accelerate out of the corner, without losing fractions changing gear, easing the clutch, and then getting back on the 'loud'.
On that original Corolla, I had a small round after market Smiths tacho mounted in the middle and on top of the dash, just off eye line, so a quick glance at the revs going into the lower gear got it as close as possible, and after practice, you can almost judge by the sound, but with tachos in the cluster these days, looking down might be a problem.
Practice first without the braking.
It's a confidence thing.

Tony.

[Poogene2001]

Unless you are spending a fair part of your day on "maximum attack" or working part time as a V8 super car test driver, theres no real chance in the day to day driving world to use this technique.
It essentially is designed to solve the problem of having 3 pedals and only 2 feet. If you watch V8 super cars (they show the in car camera of the driver's feet) you notice that they only perform heel-toe shifts when on full brakes, going into a 2nd/1st gear corner because they need the assistance of engine braking to slow the car down enough to make the apex of a turn.
Flat shifting is something you can try if you are brave and want to maximise you straight line speed. Simply bury the accelerator, when the tacho approaches the red line (or your nominated shift point), jab the clutch without releasing the accelerator and smash the box into 2nd (all within less than second). Repeat into 3rd and 4th and you will find yourself going quite quickly. Mind you, I have a feeling this will not be doing your clutch or gear box any big favours in the long term!
:)

[xplosv57]

Isn't flatshifting when you don't use the clutch at all and change gears at high rpm, correct me if im wrong????

Ive tried to learn heel/toe, more for taking off, was never any good at it, either ended up stalling or turned into a big smokeshow, although the second one was kinda fun!!!!!!!

[AF1R]

So wats the proper technique?

Ive never tried the heel toe when downshifting, I just shitf to gear and step on the gas without braking

EDIT: I mean after i down shift to gear, i put pressure on the gas as i slowly lift my foot off the clutch

[platypus]

xplosv - heel and toe on up shift?? so you braked while trying to go faster? but correct on the flatshifting - tis bizarre to do this on a road car though!!!

heel and toe braking is something you don't really need to do to much anymore, unless your synchros are gone - if not done right you'll actually chew your gearbox!!

for those who don't know heel and toe is done to match revs while downshifting, which was essential with older gearboxes without synchros - try double de-clutching first - when down shifting, shift neutral, clutch up, revs up (to match the lower gear) clutch in select gear, clutch out - done


also reduces the strain on the engine by not suddenly jumping 2000rpm on down shift!!

from there try the down shifts by heel and toe - braking with your toe and bringing the revs up with your heel - takes a little while to get the movement co-ordinated - then move on to doing it on corners...

all in all not too useful - BUT if you are racing (or even just taking a spirited run) is a good way to keep movement in the drivetrain! (or those with clutches on the way out)

also uses a bucket more fuel doing this!!

[jsantos]

Pretty much what platypus said.

I havn't mastered it either,i'll give it a go time-to-time if i feel like f-king around a bit, however if i just want a smoother downshift i just break till i'm about 10Km\ph above where i want to be for the cornor get off the break clutch in shift down jab the throttle abit and ease the clutch up, Wouldn't be any good in a race, does stop any jerking though, and it would use more fuel so i don't bother all the time.

I watched a Skip barber DVD a while back when i wanted to laern it that explained how to do it etc. The main advantage froma racing perspective isn't really the engine breaking, whilst it may help the advantage comes from the fact that you are doing things more smoothly, this means your cars balance isn't upset mid-cornor so you get more control over the car and are ready to accelerate out of the cornor.

It really became out dated as a "must do" when synchro's came in.

[Alfonzo]

I taught myself to do it in the Vectra. Given the Vec has a particularly *slow* response to sudden stomps on the accelerator, it took a bit of coordination to get the timing right. I do it a fair bit in the Foz, it makes slowing for corners smoother and sounds nice alright too :D

To learn, I can only recommend that you find a quiet street, and be aware of your surroundings. When you're starting out, you'll tend to really jump on the brake while trying to blip the accelerator with your heel - it's natural to do so, because you're trying to work a second movement into the first one with the same foot. Keep at it, and you get it eventually.

[Vectracious]

Isn't flatshifting when you don't use the clutch at all and change gears at high rpm, correct me if im wrong????



Flat shifting is something you can try if you are brave and want to maximise you straight line speed. Simply bury the accelerator, when the tacho approaches the red line (or your nominated shift point), jab the clutch without releasing the accelerator and smash the box into 2nd (all within less than second). Repeat into 3rd and 4th and you will find yourself going quite quickly. Mind you, I have a feeling this will not be doing your clutch or gear box any big favours in the long term!
:)

AF1R - google heel toe and theres about a million pages with pics on how to do it. But a rough guide is....

1. Start braking with right foot
2. Clutch in and take car out of gear
3. While still braking, pivot right foot so heel is above accelerator.
4. Blip accelerator so as to raise revs to what they would be if car was in the gear you want.
5. At the same time you are doing that, select gear you want.
6. Release clutch - car in lower gear.

Basically - from clutch in to clutch out all that should take about 1 second.

[xplosv57]

But heel and toe is different to flat shifting isn't it??

[Vectracious]

But heel and toe is different to flat shifting isn't it??

Yes, very different.

Heel and toe you use while slowing down/downshifting

Flat shifting you use while accelerating/shifting up.

[Mainframe_Module]

hmmm i dont want to do it for racing or anything.

but fromw hat ive read they say its BETTER for your clutch and gearbox and that its alot smoother, which is the main reason im interested....making it alot smoother :)

though im thinking you could probably do it just without the brakes? giving a bit of throttle while bringing the clutch up without braking?

hmmm

[MatsHolden]

But heel and toe is different to flat shifting isn't it??

Yeh mate. Heal and toe is for down shifts. Main reason is to avoid compression lock ups more than anything else. With the blip of the throttle it prevents a compression lock up. If you just changed down the gear and let the clutch out with no blip of the throttle you'll just lock the fronts (FWD) or rears (RWD).

Flat shifting is purely shifting into gear without the use of the clutch, just a matter of getting the timing correct. Wouldn't do it on your own car though, but hire cars give it a go... Don't even have to be agressive and slam it in, just have to lightly push and the stick will just slide in nicely (if you have the timing right). But yeh only used in race cars (eg. V8 Supercars) as they have purpose built boxes that are rebuilt after each race.

[Vectracious]

Mat, you do you use the clutch in flat shifting - you but you have to be quick while depressing it and releasing it.

EDIT NOTE: OK have looked around and people are divided in whether you use the clutch or not, however, from videos I have seen (Mainly jap videos where they take stock cars out on a track) the drivers have pressed and depressed the clutch very quickly while changing gear and holding the accelerator down...

[MatsHolden]

hmmm i dont want to do it for racing or anything.

but fromw hat ive read they say its BETTER for your clutch and gearbox and that its alot smoother, which is the main reason im interested....making it alot smoother :)

though im thinking you could probably do it just without the brakes? giving a bit of throttle while bringing the clutch up without braking?

hmmm

Yes you can just blip the throttle with no brakes, if you are not needing to pull up quickly. Really as everyone's said Heel and Toe technique was developed for racing.. no real benefit on the road unless you're having a good spirited run. Having said that I'm in the habit of always doing heal toeing, basically because I like listening to the exhaust note and the popping on the over run. And I use it for more spirited driving for it's intended purpose. (to prevent compression lockups)

[MatsHolden]

Mat, you do you use the clutch in flat shifting - you but you have to be quick while depressing it and releasing it.

Don't have to... Watch the V8's next time. They just have the foot flat and don't even touch the clutch on up shifts and foot flat on the throttle. It does vary from driver to driver. Some don't like being that hard on the equipment.

[MatsHolden]

Watch this video of mark skaife's technique. Shows both heal toeing and flat shifting.

He uses the clutch on the lower gears for up shifts but in the higher gears it's no clutch and throttle flat to the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I

[Dave]

I taught my self how to do it, mainly from watching vids and practice and error, i can match it perfectly 90% of the time and it makes down shifts so smooth its not funny.

Also usefull for mountin runs ;)

I do it more out of habbit now then anything else.......

[xplosv57]

Yeah im with Mat on the flat shifting part, i always thought it was without the clutch and also learned that from watching the V8 supercars, gotta love pedal cam!!!!!!!!!!!

[xplosv57]

But who wants to prevent compression lock-up, its so much fun, especially coming into a corner in a RWD, ohhh yeah, tail happy!!!!!!!!

[auzvectra]

i drive pretty much any and every car with a heel toe, but i use the ball of my foot, 1 side to each pedal, more effetive this way, as long as the pedals arent too far apart.

[Mainframe_Module]

i drive pretty much any and every car with a heel toe, but i use the ball of my foot, 1 side to each pedal, more effetive this way, as long as the pedals arent too far apart.

frm what i can see, thats actually how its sposed to be done, they usually just CALL it heel and toe, but its not usually involving the actual heel.

[Shaun]

I see the point of it in a V8 Supercar as they are running 9/10ths on the track. Pluss there Gearboxes run Straight cut gears meaning they are much harder to come back through the gears and the engine speed needs to be matched with the gear box speed. (like a non syncro box on a Truck need to be doubled clutch to bring the speed up to match)
And Flat changing in a V8 is fine they dont run syncro i believe. But flatt changing in your Astra Barina or Vecta isnt going to do the box any good. In the end you will end up with ablown Gear Box.. And if you guys notice they only flat change up through the gears not back down. this is so the engine speed and the gear speed is matched to stop compression lock up.

I dont see any advantage in " Heel Toe" to every day road car drivers using this method unless they are on a track day. Everyone ive ever known to use this method have ran up someones ass at some point.

[Shaun]

Yeh mate. Heal and toe is for down shifts. Main reason is to avoid compression lock ups more than anything else. With the blip of the throttle it prevents a compression lock up. If you just changed down the gear and let the clutch out with no blip of the throttle you'll just lock the fronts (FWD) or rears (RWD).

Flat shifting is purely shifting into gear without the use of the clutch, just a matter of getting the timing correct. Wouldn't do it on your own car though, but hire cars give it a go... Don't even have to be agressive and slam it in, just have to lightly push and the stick will just slide in nicely (if you have the timing right). But yeh only used in race cars (eg. V8 Supercars) as they have purpose built boxes that are rebuilt after each race.

Totally Agree with you on not doing it on your own car...

[Dave]

Im with auz and shaun ive never had that problem, i do it more out of habit now, which is pretty much all the time......... i do belive in one of 2 cases its helped, by preventing lock up. though the handbrake did lock up.

[oneightoo]

never felt the need to heel and toe, tho i spose it could be fun every now and then..

i always thought flatshifting didnt use the clutch also.. if it's just using the clutch and shifting quickly, then i must flat shift every time..

[MatsHolden]

Just a note.. you do have to be driving very hard and letting the clutch out very quickly to experience compression lock up.

[Shaun]

Flat changing is when you dont use your clutch.

[JasonGilholme]

I started learnin how to heel toe a while ago. at forst o fpimd ot easier to do in the barina cause the pedals were closer together but once you've got the technique down it should be easy to do it between different cars. Might get a bit bumpy though lol.

I can do it in the barina by just using the the balls of my feet but in the honda i need to use my toes on the brake and my heel on the acc. cause of the bigger difference in pedal travel. (the acc goes real deep in the honda compared to the barina)

I good way to practice is try and rev the engine with your foot on the brake while your stationary. (and in neutral :P)

Once thats ok you can try to do the same thing as you brake for a set of lights. When you can smoothly brake and rev the engine freely you can start incorporating the clutch and gears. ;)

[Dee]

good tips there jason, i'll be trying that later.. i've tried before.. but it never seems to work for me.... that might just be the thing to make it work ;)

[JasonGilholme]

Good luck. You'll be surprised how easy it is once you've got the basics down.

You'll soon be doing it without even thinking about it.

[JasonGilholme]

Heres a good vid that shows how its done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkYDMPyycoo

Uses heel toe, and sometimes only straight forward rev matching.

FYI: NSX @ nurburg

[vectraguy01]

my interpretation of flat changing is when u change gears with having full throttle on, never taking ur foot off the accelerator, only works for me when im near or in red line, havent done it for ages.

[vectraguy01]

havent tried heel toe, but i do match revs when down changing.

[MatsHolden]

my interpretation of flat changing is when u change gears with having full throttle on, never taking ur foot off the accelerator, only works for me when im near or in red line, havent done it for ages.

That's sort of half flat changing. Real flat changing as stated earlier is foot flat on the throttle and no clutch.

[nigelh]

It is very hard to flat change with no clutch in a road car because you have to work against the dove tails, (the part of the selector sleeve that holds the gear in drive or overunn) detent spring (holds the gear on cruise)and the interlocker pin(stops you selecting two gear at once)and the sycro/baulk ring for the next gear. a race gearbox has none of these parts. what some people do is keep there foot flat and just before the engine hits the rev limiter they dip the clutch and slam the next gear and just let the engine bounce of the rev limiter. This is very hard on the gearbox and clutch.

Heel toe is good when your driving hard and helps to stop wearing the sycro rings out to fast.

p.s. can post some pictures of the parts I was talking about if anyone is intrested.

[MatsHolden]

Clutchless changes can be done though on a road car box. Yes not as easy as on a race box but can be done. You'd be stupid though to do true flat shifting in your own car. lol

[auzvectra]

allthough i true flat shifting is with the clutch not used and the accel flat, this seem not possible as the revs would be too high???
i did always think that it was with the clutch but with full accell.
i used to do it this way in my n13 years ago (only if i was getting beaten).

[Greggy]

You'd be stupid though to do true flat shifting in your own car. lol

A trip to Hertz it is then ;)

Used to heel and toe in my 1999 Ford focus all the time - pedals I found to be just right in the spacing & height dept....the vec B i find the gas pedal a little too low and making it a bit more tricky, but still possible :D Living in the middle of no where there are plenty of winding roads so H&T is quite common place for me (when wearing right shoes - I cant do it do well in trainers, has to be smooth bottomed work shoes)

when you get it right its cool as a cucumber, slighty off and its bumpy as hell.....

[Tfer]

Interesting thread...... :)

I cannot see the relevance in day to day driving, and with a long throw, slowish gearbox of the Veccy C, not something I would even contemplate trying. :o

Used to do it in my '84 Corolla though, but it was also built to rally specs :D

Each to their own, but could imagine being in the passenger seat with someone capable behind in the wheel..... *hmmm*... that could be fun :)

[entice]

I know of a certain car that was used on teh track at every meet the owner could get to.... That car was constantly being flatshifted, and over-revved on downchanges...

The clutch did last, teh g'box and engine did not (repeated downshifting from redline will do that). I think in total it needed an engine and box rebuild by 19,000Km's.

Oh, and if thinking that makes you wonder.. it was all repaired under warranty.

Thankfully for the community, that car is no longer on the "available" list

I guess some cars are built to take the punishment, some cars arent. Being friendly with service personelle tends to help.

If I wanted to try something like that, I'd scour the Mitsu dealers for a friendly service manager...
then, I'd sign up for an Evo...

with it's 5/10yr warranty (powertrain 10yrs I think).

tow it to the track (plates off) drive for teh day/weekend meet, tow back home.

any issues? plates go back on, and off to the friendly dealer we go....

these cars dont cost so much money cos they go quick (oh, and yes you can mod any car to go quick).. there's a fair bit more to durability and performance than just an airfilter, exhaust, and chip gets you!

[Dee]

ok... back reporting my findings on trying this technique....


my feet arent wide enough to be able to reach the brake and accelerator at the same time... and my legs are too short to be able to use my heel and toe (ie. toes on brake, heel on accelerator)... :( seems i wont be doing it in the barina.
come to think of it, the pedals in the corolla were further apart... no chance in that either....

[JasonGilholme]

Its more to do with the length of your foot.

What size shoe are you???

You pretty much have to turn your foot on a 45 - 90 degree angle in some cars to reach both pedals.

[Dee]

ladies size 7 (or 8 in heels)

and as mentioned before - my legs are too short to turn my foot on the side... well to do it comfortably... it was too uncomfortable to try, let alone do it while driving.

[JasonGilholme]

i urge you to keep tryin cause it felt uncomfortable for me at first.

But if your legs are too short theres nothing you can do. :(

[auzvectra]

just a sujestion, you can also do it this way, more the way i do it.
rather then trying to use your foot across both pedals, put you foot so the edge of your shoe is touching the side of the accel pedal, while sitting on the brake, then to blip the accel, just roll ur foot towards the accel.
this is how i do it.

[JasonGilholme]

Thats how i do it in the barina.

Depends on pedal distance tho, and personal preference.