new Astra = Lacetti, new Barina = Kalos ?

[fob_sri]

from SMH:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/01/1086058855450.html?from=storylhs

The decade-long small-car price war claimed its first big scalp yesterday when the Korean brand Daewoo announced it would close its doors in Australia by the end of the year after being "absolutely squeezed" by cheaper competition from Japan.
...
In another twist, future Daewoos may be sold in Australia wearing Holden
badges. Holden recently transferred two senior Australian designers to
Daewoo's head office in Korea and is looking to source its small cars
from Asia rather than Europe, because of unfavourable exchange rates.

Holden's small cars are sourced from General Motors' German subsidiary,
Opel, and their sales have suffered over the past two years because of
exchange rate-driven price rises.

[anicorsa]

NOOOOOO!!!!! :screwy: = Holden

[fob_sri]

To reply to myself, I *think* by "small" cars they are referring to the Barina, whose sales may well be down since the heyday of Best Small Car, umm 2001? It's tough in that segment, you have some fairly decent Hyundai's, and of course the Echo, Mazda 2 (for a bit more $$), Jazz etc.

However, they did say "cars", not car. Could the Astra also come from Daewoo? Personally I think Daewoo may have suffered by not offering a good enough product for the price. If this is true, then Holden not only dropping Daewoo brand but also its current (Opel) product, while taking on the Daewoos as its own, is tripling, not doubling the bet.

I'm not so much a die hard Opel fan (I bought my first Astra this week, used to own a Hyundai!) and can understand the economic sense of changing source to a price point, but the product has to be actually competitive on features as well as price.

Holden need to note that Daewoo are not the only casualties in this segment. Check out Pulsar and Lancer. Do you think Nissan and Mitsubishi (current issues aside) suffer from the same brand name problem as Daewoo? Are their products not selling simply because people prefer to drive a "Toyota" rather than a Nissan/Mitsu ? There are many factors that affect a buyer's decision, for example driveability, dynamics, perceived build quality, handling, creature comforts, safety etc etc.

Last time I checked the Astra is Australia's 5th selling car behind Falcon, Commodore, Camry, Corolla and Magna (I think). Would it still be if it becomes a rebadged Lacetti? Depends on the buyers' perception of the car. On the plus side, the 1.8 would remain the same (but on the down side that engine needs an update).

Of course there are examples of good product not selling because of price (Mazda2, Vectra, Focus) but what would Holden be trading in return for short term profit pushing high volume cheap cars on the market for a few years?

[anicorsa]

Well if all that goes ahead, my next car will be a Toyota.

[Dee]

wtf are they thinking.. they cant go wrong with the opels..... now the daewoos... i've heard nothing but trouble from ppl that have owned them... holdens small - medium car range is gonna cop a hiding....

[dazza015]

I can see their point from a exchange rate issue, but cannot see the point in decreasing quality just to save a few bucks, I mean I for one would not / WILL NOT ever buy a Daewoo that has been rebadged a Holden, The Opel sourced cars are fairly spirited cars to drive as we all know, whereas the Daewoo's I have driven have been boring and unspririted to say the least. Drivers such as us would notice this in an instant and would leave the brand in droves I would think. I would be the first! and if I still wanted a small car next car I would be marching straight to a Ford Dealer and Demanding they order me a Fiesta RS!!

[fob_sri]

Here's another angle. The Jazz is a pretty funky small car that's priced well despite the fact that it's a Honda. It's made in Thailand (I think- anyway its not Japan!) Hence the price.
A better option might be to convert the Daewoo factory in Korea to spit out Opel designed cars... or whichever GM subsiduary is currently producing good cars. That gets you the product and the price. Back it with a longer warranty to overcome people's negative assumptions about the origin, and you're still in business.... ;)

[Jass]

I will never purchase and astra if it has a daewoo engine in it. pffft forget it.

In regards to the mitsu, i can uderstand why the heck they have jacked up the prices on the new lancers, without improving the engine itself. The new 2.0L SOHC gives the same power as the previous 1.8L SOHC bth coming in at 98kw i think.
Crap i tells ya.

For the price you pay on a new lancer you can get a decent astra

[anicorsa]

Not to mention that this forum may not get any new members since there are no opels for say in Aust. Maybe just Vectras and Zafiras. :?

[XXX-1.8T]

I dont think Holden will make daewoos into Astra's

They may do it with Barina....

But Holden know they are on a good thing with the Opels and now Ford have copied them bringing in German Fords ;)

Dont think Holdens that stupid :shock:

[fob_sri]

XXX I am sure you are right, all the journos have reported the new Astra coming and won't be very kind if there was a switch anyway. I presume the new Astra will be more expensive to buy, not just because of the exhange rate. One possible strategy might be to confine the new Astra to the "luxury" market segment (competing against A3, Golfs, Focus (?!) etc) while introducing a new "small/medium" size car with a different brand name to take over where the current Astra City currently struggles and won't be able to compete with a price increase.

But yeah, if you believe the story, the Corsa's days in Aus. might be numbered :( I can well imagine Holden dealers dreaming of a $13,990 driveaway Barina (Kalos). :( But like I said before, the market has moved on from the bargain basement days where you could move anything as long as its cheap. Look at Daihatsu. Now *that's* cheap motoring.. but what are the sales like? And on the other hand, Hyundai thought they were smart- their products improved greatly with only a slight increase in price. Despite that, they are really struggling in Australia. Fewer dealers than ever. People want good *and* cheap, and if even one brand gives it (Toyota), they'll buy it. There's no hero status in being different.

The important thing for Holden is not to panic. They are not the only ones hurting in that market segment. I suppose what they are worried about is a repeat of the Vectra slump where the new model was so much more expensive than the previous that people wouldn't make the step up, despite Holden's assertions that the competition was really meant to be Saabs and BMW 3s (!), not Camrys...

The Focus might get the benefit of being the only affordable sub $25000 Euro car until its new model comes too... And where is the Fiesta being manufactured?

[em]

I went passed hunter holden near RNS hospital on monday, they have the promotional signs up....

"new HOLDEN daewoo in store now"

[Dee]

ohh what so they have already done it.... bugger.... there goes the value of our cars....

[dan_kind]

Hey Guys, according to motor or wheels magazine this month there is a discussion on this topic.
Effectively as GM either owns or has a majority share of 'woo they have decided to rebrand as Holden.

-however-

the article went on to say that the cars werent going to fit into the current model line up, other than the lacetti being middle man between Barina and Astra if the Astra faced a higher cost much like the vectra..

The Kalos is currently on hold, until they find a place to squeeze it in. No chance they are going to move from the current line up, it would be suicidal

I might see if i can scan the article

[DrDevil]

i heard that the Lacetti is going to replace the Astra, because the new Astra will be moving up to a higher price bracket (like fob_sri said above).

Havent heard anything about the Barina/Corsa tho. I dont think they will be getting rid of it tho, it is still heaps better selling than the Kalos.

Apparently GM-Daewoo was only selling 2000 or so cars a year, so thats why they are decontinuing the brand.

[dan_kind]

From a marketing and product positioning point of view, it is going overboard to introduce another two vehicles into the line up.

I think we will see the Lacetti drop in between Barina and 'astra' and the Kalos well, it is cheaper than the barina, but no where near the type of sales

[jch75]

In my opinion, Holden can do what it likes with Daewoo - what ever, I think it's a bad thing. A known cheap and nasty brand won't help Holden. BUT................what General Motors needs to do, is start selling its brands globally. I don't see any value calling an Opel Vectra a Holden. What they need to do is use Opel as General Motors prestige brand..................like Lexus is to Toyota, Acura is to Honda..........so on and so on. If they want to sell budget cars, they can use GM Daewoo but if they want to sell prestige in Australia, they should sell premium Opels - the top cars Opel Vectra GSi \ Opel Astra SRi (not the base models). Then perhaps rather than going to a Holden Dealer, you go to a General Motors Dealer and you have a choice of Premium Opels small to mid for $$$, you have the local brand Holden in the larger size and then you have the Daewoos for the budget buyer under 20 Gdogs. I think that makes sense and it doesn't degrade quality products by calling them some other brand name. What do you think about that?

[dan_kind]

Well, in my totally uneducated opinion i would say that the branding would be a total disaster.

I doubt holden fans (board) would like GM making any noise over here...

[jch75]

Dan_kind,
Do you think Holden fans would want people to buy a shitty Daewoo badged as a Holden? Then when the wheels fall off - Holden is given a bad name. This way at very least, each brand is responsible for its own image and is accountable. This way there is a total product range.....................image then if they decided to incorportate a Chevy Corvette as a real Sports Car for the GM Australia range. I wouldn't see that impacting Monaro sales................it just gives greater buyer choice.

[anicorsa]

I dont think Opel is seen as Prestigious in Europe. So making it so globally would be difficult.

And if they do that in just Australia, i wouldnt like GM Australia calling Opels prestigious if it isnt in other countries.

[rjastra]

LIsten to you guys... ranting and raving.

Holden engines go into the Lacetti (the same engine as the Astra 1.8L) and export versions of the Kalos that goes to the USA.
Yes... the Kalos in the USA get the 1.6L DOHC 75kw engine and is sold as a Chevrolet!!

The Lacetti has been given resounding above average reports by the Australian press and it is not the typical ugly Korean car. In fact the styling has overtones of the current/new astra. Only the grill is tad off putting.
The 5 door hatch is a better fit to our market

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ae_roadtest_pics/224111.jpg?5664

I didn't see many Holden people complain about the first Holden Barina (aka Suzuki). They did complain about the subsequent OPEL model.

The Austalian built Vectra was better built than the Imported model.

To think that OPEL has any image in Australia is laughable. It has ZERO image.

Holden will do what is required to maintain profitability in the Australian market.

The Lacetti (and its hatchback equivalent) would make a great $19990 vehicle in the Holden lineup once the exxy new Astra is released. The Kalos may replace the Barina. Who knows. The Kalos main failing is its lack of power. something that has been rectified for other markets.

Holden's main focus must be to get a new SUV onto the market to match the Territory/Kluger. This is reportedly a Daewoo version of the Chevrolet Equinox.
A mid-weight 4wd would be good too (prado competitor).

[dan_kind]

Will be interesting to see what they do with the SUV range...
might go have a drive of the lacetti, have heard mixed reports..

give us a Kalos SRi already :p

[astra_city]

well this is the first I've heard of all this...must say quite suprised to hear it. I don't really mind, since I've got my Astra now and will be keeping it for quite a few years yet! I don't think that it is a good idea though really...but I guess it probably would sell in the $19990 price. Holden should just price the new Astra from abotu $22k like the Mazda 3, then they won't need Daewoo's to fill the line up.

All I know is, the Lacetti isn't a bad car for sure, but I'd much rather drive my Astra City for the same price!

[__Smudge__]

Daewoo in the Uk is known as a brand that buys/uses blueprints to models who's sales are on the decline..........none of thier models have the same name or spec as the Vaux/Opel models on which they are based. In my opinion any Vaux/Opel vehicle onsale in AUS is as safe as houses..Uk are just introducing a new VXR range that is based on Opels OPC motors.......these cars are here to stay! :wink:

[jch75]

Can I just point out whilst Opel isn't prestige in Europe, look at its german competitors - the best in the world....................Audi, Porsche, BMW, M-Benz, Volks............any german car is better than our local product and Daewoo. Look at the new Omega and current Vectra. QUALITY.

[rjastra]

buys/uses blueprints to models who's sales are on the decline

Huh? You mean superceded OPELS - lol
The current Kalos and Lacetti are not.


Look at the new Omega and current Vectra. QUALITY.

What new OMEGA? they have stopped making it haven't they? And there is no firm replacement lined up for it.

If you think that the current Vectra 2.2L is competitive with the likes of the Accord Euro or MAzda 6 then you are nuts :lol: It doesn't have the performance, handling or equipment to match either of these cars. If it did it would sell in far greater numbers.


Uk are just introducing a new VXR range that is based on Opels OPC motors

The big drawcards are the VXR220 and the MOnaro VXR. Can't remember an OPC engine based on the 5.7L Corvette engine :lol: Is there a current opel fitted with the same 220hp spec engine fitted to the VXR220?

[jch75]

The Vectra 3.2L goes 0 - 100km in 7.2 - 7.5......(7.2 according to Vauxhall)................................that is faster than ur mazda6 or honda accord ...........................hmmm yep. We are talk Aussie models. The OPC twinturbo deisel, that hits 100 in 6.3 (that's WRX quick - refer to redbook).......I dont think the OPC TT will make it here though............

On the Omega, refer to:
http://www.germancarfans.com/spyphotos.cfm/SpyPhotoID/6040505.001/opel/1.html

Note that the Omega isn't in production yet but it will be - based on the VE Commodore..............funny enough the VE will look very EURO itself. But they wont be the same car, only similar.

V8 power....................mmmmmmmmmmmmmm nice.

[01CDsedan]

A few thoughts here.

Firstly, I think the reason the Daewoo brand isn't selling at the moment is the combination of the whole "is the company going under" disaster of a few years back, and the wrong marketing strategy. Daewoos were selling by the boatload when the ads were all about the dog and the deal. People knew they were cheap and packed with features for the price like air con and free servicing or whatever, and they bought them. Lately it's been all about making them into some sort of classy car, and people aren't interested in 'classy' cars from Korea when they can get them from Europe instead.

Now, onto Daewoo Holdens. You won't see the Astra replaced anytime soon. I think the Barina will stay too, although they have almost priced the thing out of the market. The Kalos is too close in size and price to the Barina - people won't get the difference and sales of one or the other would suffer, so I'd say for now they'll stick with Barina. Later, who knows.

The Lacetti, though, has the same engine as the Astra, is not a bad car, and comes in a sedan and a hatchback (but the hatch isn't sold here). There is no Astra sedan in the new model. I'll predict here today that in a year from now, there will be a Holden version of the sedan, probably wearing the front end from the hatchback photo posted elsewhere in this thread, to replace the Astra Sedan and hit the market at about $20k. And they'll sell a fair few.

The Matiz will probably go, but when there's a new model I wouldn't be surprised to see it turn up as a Holden. Plenty of people would be interested in a new Holden for $11,990...

And the Tacuma, well that's a bloody stupid idea and it will go. And that's the whole Daewoo range.

[rjastra]

The Vectra 3.2L goes 0 - 100km in 7.2 - 7.5......(7.2 according to Vauxhall)................................that is faster than ur mazda6 or honda accord ...........................hmmm yep.

And your point is exactly what? The Vectra is sold as both a sedan and hatch in both 4 and 6 cylinder versions and can't get within coo-eee of the Sedan only 4 cylinder Accord Euro sales. Not even close.


Note that the Omega is in production yet but it will be - based on the VE Commodore

Conjecture only at this stage. That is pure photoshopped.
That story is sooo full of inaccuracies.

5L corvette engine? never heard of that one.
Using the out of date 3.2L V6 when the new all alloy V6 from Holden is available? The use of a inline 4 diesel, inline 5 diesel and a V6 diesel... umm why? All it says is certain showcar items will be replaced by "conventional" items. Well duh.


Lately it's been all about making them into some sort of classy car, and people aren't interested in 'classy' cars from Korea when they can get them from Europe instead.


Huh? seems to me people are now moving back to Japan for mid sized cars.
Golf, Focus and Astra sales are all now dropping in Australia.

[fob_sri]

01CD, personally I think Daewoo is failing because its an overcrowded marketplace and you really need a good deal. When you have the Echo on the one hand, and the COTY twins Accent and Getz on the other, there's not much room in between. But I agree the whiff of failure tips it over the edge. I also believe there is a big difference in quality between all brands, even amongst those from the same country, eg. Korea. I'm at least partially talking from experience ;)

I totally agree that a new ~$11990 Holden will be a major coup and take a chunk of the market.

I just hope the next time I buy a car there will be a choice that is as right for me (for the money I'm willing to spend) as the Astra (SRi) was this time around.

[PRC33Y]

Here's how it is IMHO


Daewoo's are SH#%#$

I would never buy a Daewoo Rice Eater Car

Long Live OPEL!!!!!!!!!!! :mrgreen:

[extralarge]

Astra = Lacetti? No. Barina = Kalos - Maybe.

The astra would and should remain. The lacetti would slot in between the now astra and barina. consider it as a cheaper alternative to the astra.

by the way, when is the new astra h due to arrive and be released in australia?

[jch75]

I think the new Astra is due in November...................not 100% but late in the year.

Rjastra - you said the vectra doesnt have the performance to match the mazda6 or Honda Accord. 0 - 100 in 7.2 sec is better performance than most cars in its category. What equipment features would the Vectra be missing apart from satnav for the Aussie model? The Vectra engine - yes is a little dated but if u have performance, does it really matter ??? When the new 190kw holden engine is available and if the Vectra gets it, it will be a very fast car for a naturally aspirated 6. IN REGARDS TO SALE - WHO GIVES A DAMN. IF I LIKE A CAR, I WOULD PREFER I DRIVE IT AND NOT SEE EVERY OTHER DRIVER IN ONE. I wouldn't want to be just another Commodore driver or just another Falcon or WRX driver. I'd like to be just a little unique........................but of course, when ur on a good thing it doesnt always stay that way.

I have driven a mazda6 and like all previous non-turbo mazdas, it was pretty damn poor in response. I don't think you can say it has performance until the turbo model hit our shores sometime next year (i think).

And Concept Cars - they're just proof that any car marker can just about do anything it wants when it comes to producing a cool car - they can make the best car or fastest car (or whatever) BUT whether it makes production is more dependant on the business issues such as market climate, competitors and niche products.

[__Smudge__]

rjastra............I just telling you how it is in UK. Daewoo are pants. Even Skoda and seat are turning out some nice sports models.

[anicorsa]

AHhh Seat... How quickly did they die in Australia.... :shock:

I actually quite liked the Ibiza.. Shame..

[Jass]

Yeah, but there actually good cars in europe arent they?

[rjastra]

Rjastra - you said the vectra doesnt have the performance to match the mazda6 or Honda Accord. 0 - 100 in 7.2 sec is better performance than most cars in its category. What

Because to get that performance you have to spend $46K + ORC for a manual CDXi (the CDX is auto only).

The car that competes with the MAzda6/Accord is the 2.2L version which is much slower than its mid $30K competitors. And the equiopment level is less.
Go sit in one... they feel like a poverty pack.. Even the base V6 CDX is extremely spartan inside. Last one I looked at didn't even have climate control!! (on a $42K+ car!!)

Even the fully specced Accord Euro Luxury is $6000 cheaper than a CDXi.

The truth is that Vectra is just too bloody expensive for what you get. And the customer knows this so they don't buy it!! You could get a V6 Vectra for low $30K in the last model!


Even Skoda and seat are turning out some nice sports models.


Yeah, I suppose... just generic VW platforms pumped out with the same yawnful 1.8T engine in various tunes. The diesel models are more interesting.

Interesting to see that europeans are shunning the "quality" "classy" new VW GOlf for the Renault Megane.

[dug74]

The following was a news article @GoAuto.com.au on 01/06/2004

The highlighted parts may be of some interest...

Daewoo deceased in Australia
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/EED3B08E91C3AAC9CA256EA60029EC5A/$file/2004.06.01_Daewoo_Lacetto.jpg
No future: Lacetti sedan was the last model to be launched by GM Daewoo in Australia.
Holden gives up the struggle and kills off GM Daewoo

By BRUCE NEWTON 1 June 2004


DAEWOO is dead in Australia. :lol: :lol:

Holden, the owner of the distributorship, announced today its decision to kill off the South Korean brand here by December 31, 2004.

The decision, made by the Holden board with the approval of GM Daewoo and GM, directly affects 37 staff employed by GM Daewoo Australia, who will either be retrenched or absorbed into the Holden organisation.

The 110-strong dealer network - including 39 with Holden franchises - was notified of the decision today.

Holden says it is confident it will not face the same sort of legal strife parent General Motors encountered when it withdrew Daewoo from the US market.

All dealers were placed on a temporary agreement last year by Holden that terminated on December 31, 2004. This was the first public sign of Holden’s struggle with the brand.

Since Daewoo was first retailed in Australia in 1994, more than 140,000 examples have been sold.

Holden says the existing Daewoo network will continue servicing responsibilities until December and Daewoo owners will then be supported by participating Holden dealers.

Holden will also make arrangements to cover warranty obligations, including any applicable warranty offered by the previous distributor, as well as roadside assistance.

Holden set-up GMDA as part of parent General Motors’ purchase of elements of the bankrupt Daewoo Motor Company and became the reconstituted GM Daewoo and Technology’s largest individual shareholder.

When Holden announced GMDA in August 2002, Holden executive director sales and marketing Ross McKenzie confidently predicted 15,000 sales in 2003 and 20,000 in 2004.
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story/EED3B08E91C3AAC9CA256EA60029EC5A/$file/2004.06.01_Daewoo_Kalos.jpg
Instead - despite the arrival of the Kalos mini-car and Lacetti sedan – Daewoo finished 2003 at 8143 sales.

That was well behind the old Daewoo Automotive Australia’s final full year of sales and miles away from the heady volumes of 1998 and 1999, when DAA sold more than 21,000 cars each year.

Mr McKenzie, a GMDA board member, said yesterday that Holden saw little chance of improvement in Daewoo’s market position, citing increasing competition from Japanese and South Korean rivals in the light and small segments in which Daewoo mainly competes.

He said GM Daewoo had been hit on two fronts - unable to match the massive economies of scale of Hyundai/Kia, while the Japanese led by Toyota have exploited favourable moves in the Yen-Aussie dollar exchange rate to bring prices down.

“Looking forward, we see no possibility of the environment shifting in any way other than becoming even more competitive and even more crowded,” Mr McKenzie said.

“There is nothing tangible to suggest that GM Daewoo’s fortunes as a brand in this country will significantly change in the coming years."

Although unwilling to talk specifics, Mr McKenzie left no doubt that Holden had lost a significant amount of money - “in the order of millions” - on the Daewoo business, falling well short of the initial break-even target.

“The performance of the GM Daewoo brand has been below our hopes and expectations,” he said.

“This is a matter of brand value and strength and certainly not a reflection on the products themselves.”

That endorsement and Mr McKenzie’s refusal to answer any future product questions will certainly raise speculation about whether there is already a plan to rebadge Daewoo cars as Holdens for the local market.

Certainly, the Lacetti and Kalos model could be the answer to Holden’s long-term concern about the increasing expense of the European-sourced Astra and Barina.
Internationally, Daewoo prospers in its own right in few markets outside South Korea. But its products are sold successfully via a variety of GM nameplates in more than 120 countries globally.

Suzuki also retails rebadged Daewoos in some markets, and the potential for that to happen here must now be a possibility too.

In Australia, Holden is already set to take a version of a mid-size cross-over wagon being developed at Daewoo which is codenamed C-100.

That project – and many others including a Daewoo version of the Statesman – is being overseen by Australian Michael Simcoe, GM executive director Asia Pacific Design, and highly-rated young former Holden designer Max Wolff.

[blackSRi]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. The debate is interesting but it should be noted that Australia is such a small fraction of GM/Opel car purchases world wide. (so we 'take' models rather than have the huge sales clout to make supply mandatory on our terms).
If Australia stopped taking Astras and Corsas, do you think it will make a large dent in the behemoth that is the Europe production house/megalithic market? Would Opel/GM worldwide really care if they can slip another vehicle in the niche instead?
I'm sure they don't care (for sales) if we take the Astra/Corsa cars or not, they have home markets to sell too, basically there due to very large demand base. The Astra and the Corsa are produced for a very competitive maket with many small/medium brands/marques to of course the vehicles must be good and quality and have high safety stanadards to compete there. The fact that these Opels sell well in Europe is because of this and the overall consumer preference for small cars, ie: easy to park, lower use of costly fuel etc.
Basically we are importing the Europe grade/version of "Commodores". (vehicle relative to main line sold in both continents).
A vehicle made for Europe, not far-off Australia.

Now compare Europe to the giant market of the US, where there the preference is largely for largish US-made cars, non-US imports in the low to mid range don't go down there well.
GM watch this market carefully as it can so easily break them profit-wise - that's why they go for common world platform, parts and engine technology- working in the global economy to their economic advantage.
Also, US$ to Euro is fine for parts imported.
US know that there, the small/med car segment is growing largely fueled by consumer demand for cheaper-to-run, well outfitted "compacts", rather than cheap finish Asian cars produced and imported outside the US (they would not be popular and consumer would vote with their wallets). So no Daewoos there, so where can GM sell them?

In Oz, we got Astras and Corsas simply because they met a niche for sales (and were affordable to import at that exchange rate at the time).
Now the exchange rate is out the window, economic factors mean they (GMAustralia) would be mad (for their profit line) not to look at a small/medium car that is cheaper to produce and from Asia.
It's just that we're being lumped in with Asia by GM/Opel worldwide for their ease and consideration of countries of supply for us ("Hey Daewoo, now that's Asian, cheap cars, should be fine for Asian countries like Australia"..etc).

Producing hatches in Asia would be good/better for Holden Australia as cost, freight and labour are all cheaper as nearer to home than in expensive (transport cost, labour etc) Europe.
I am sure though that Holden in Australia would love to sell everyone in Oz a Commodore if they could as it's best for them (being set up to produce them here and sales are not fab for these cars when exported overseas - large motor sales overseas are always negatively affected by major oil shocks - price hikes).
So there you go, we get two quality Euro car models largely to meet a sales niche, and we are just lucky they happened to be Euro cars rather than Asian-produced Daewoos.

Now GM Australia will only care about sales - selling a local sedan and SUV are expected to be its main sales in Oz (still even with fuel hikes). The other vehicle niches will be affected by economic factors and bottom line, as marketing will persuade average Joes to buy a Holden small/medium produced in Asia as it's features for price/fuel economy that drives this segment.
Most people in Oz aren't Opel fans (or even know what that brand is!) and most don't know (or care) where the Astra/Corsa comes from. For them, if the price is right it's right.

Do I see Euro designed and Euro produced parts for Astra/Corsa being done in Asia? Naah, too expensive and not effective to ship them half way around the world before assembly (or re-equip parts producers and produce in Asia with same high quality/design. Yes they can bang out great quantities of copies, but of patented designs or high quality? naah, look ok - not up close though, and not last long!).
Look at the Astra, it's German design and German parts by the tonne - eg headlights, Bosch sensors, ABS, safety pyro seat belts etc etc, all would not be cost effective done in Asia, needs to be designed in Asia, with parts from Asia (with local parts suppliers brought into the design etc).

Anyway, the new H will be interesting, especially for sales and if the Euro stays strong (will there be price hikes?).
Lets see if Daewoo is such a basket case that it's not viable to produce small cars for Oz (and then they may make it just produce for other Asian markets wanting cheap small vehicles), anyway Daewoo small cars will always be sold on cheap low price, not quality so that's the line for them.

Long live Opel imports to Oz I say, viva la difference - it's nice to have a choice of 'affordable' Euro cars rather than questionable-quality, lack-lustre unimaginitively-designed mainstream Aussie cars or "Jap" (owned) brands banged out in Malaysia/Indonesia/Korea etc...
Maybe Daewoo (GM's 'Asia brand') can be flogged off to Proton or Lotus (Indonesia)? There's always hope lol.

my 2 cents...thanks for listening

[__Smudge__]

Nice one Black SRi, a lot of thought went into that post.

just for rjastra......seat leon cupra is a good looking quality car, that has touches of other major companies but who would turn their noses up at a standard 210bhp (156.6 Kw) at an affordable price??

[rjastra]

US - So no Daewoos there, so where can GM sell them?


Oh really :) have a look --> http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/gallery.htm
Looks like a Kalos to me (and it is)

Of course if we could get our Astras/Barinas from some place like Thailand or South Africa they would be alot more cost effective


seat leon cupra is a good looking quality car, that has touches of other major companies but who would turn their noses up at a standard 210bhp (156.6 Kw) at an affordable price??


Touches of VW you mean :) A capable car no doubt. But I'd rather have a Clio Sport 182 :D

[blackSRi]

Thanks Smudge, I was on a roll, I'm in essay mode at the moment in Uni, can you tell? lol (Finance/economics is my bag).
You guys are lucky you are part of the quality European producers market, and Jap cars are a novelty there, but for all the good Japanese models, theres a tonne of crap. (what Asian car brand/models do you see in UK BTW)?
How do you guys go on Astra? they aren't cheap there are they?, like on exchange rates I worked out that a $28,000 AUS SRi went for over $40,000AUS in UK on AUS-to-pound conversion!

RJastra, I would be interested if the Astra could be made elsewhere - would they be made from all-imported parts or local-made? They would have to consist of local parts to be worth it.
I would surmise that those like our Astra and Corsa model range in SE Asia, South America or Sth Africa are still fully imported from Europe (maybe - correct me if I am wrong anyone...)

[XXX-1.8T]

Yeah, I suppose... just generic VW platforms pumped out with the same yawnful 1.8T engine in various tunes. The diesel models are more interesting.



Hey i got one of those and not yawnful about mine

BTW Seat make a 165kw hatch that weighs around 1100kg's dont see anything yawnful about that either 8)

[ultim8DTM5]

Seat Cupra Sport GTi was the best, I wish we got the Leon here!

[rjastra]

BTW Seat make a 165kw hatch that weighs around 1100kg's dont see anything yawnful about that either

Is that the Leon Cupra R?? If so it's 1300+kg. Hardly lightweight.
Maybe there is a smaller model?

[dug74]

BTW Seat make a 165kw hatch that weighs around 1100kg's dont see anything yawnful about that either

Is that the Leon Cupra R?? If so it's 1300+kg. Hardly lightweight.
Maybe there is a smaller model?

Weights
Kerb-side weight without driver (kg) 1366-1386
Max. allowed (kg) 1811

For more Cupra R Fast Facts....click link

1.8 20VT Cupra R (http://www.seat.com/su/com/leon/site/facts/techtables/techtables-1/main.html)

[__Smudge__]

Black SRi,

Here is a link to the new vauxhall astra......price for the SRi Turbo equates to $45,532.50

http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/configure/index.jhtml?driveCode=TS48&driveCodePack=MV6T&description=SRi+2.0i+16v+Turbo&vehicleType=Car&newSearch=true&_requestid=10121

As for Asian models, here is a link to the UK's top new and used car advertisers.....Be careful you could spend hours on this site, I know i do :P

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/

[jch75]

Rjastra - you said the vectra doesnt have the performance to match the mazda6 or Honda Accord. 0 - 100 in 7.2 sec is better performance than most cars in its category. What

Because to get that performance you have to spend $46K + ORC for a manual CDXi (the CDX is auto only).

The car that competes with the MAzda6/Accord is the 2.2L version which is much slower than its mid $30K competitors. And the equiopment level is less.
Go sit in one... they feel like a poverty pack.. Even the base V6 CDX is extremely spartan inside. Last one I looked at didn't even have climate control!! (on a $42K+ car!!)

Even the fully specced Accord Euro Luxury is $6000 cheaper than a CDXi.

The truth is that Vectra is just too bloody expensive for what you get. And the customer knows this so they don't buy it!! You could get a V6 Vectra for low $30K in the last model!


Even Skoda and seat are turning out some nice sports models.


Yeah, I suppose... just generic VW platforms pumped out with the same yawnful 1.8T engine in various tunes. The diesel models are more interesting.

Interesting to see that europeans are shunning the "quality" "classy" new VW GOlf for the Renault Megane.

Well obviously it depends on ur taste. I just bought a CDXi and I like the interior & it has plenty of features. What features are missing - tell me, apart from satnav? It actually has more features that the mazda and honda according to THEIR websites. YES they have dual climate control, heated seats. Some say the interior is a little plain but I like that as compared to say the Accord - that fake woodgrain look is dated and looks a bit cheap and nasty in my opinion (unless it is done right, it looks crap). A bit like my friends $70000 lexus RX330 - the woodgrain in that looks appalling. Who wants to pay anything over say $35k and not get decent performance? I drove an accord and a mazda6 - both nice, but just didnt cut it for me. The old 626 still haunts me...............yuk!

[rjastra]

I just bought a CDXi and I like the interior & it has plenty of features. What features are missing - tell me, apart from satnav?

LOL. the truth is out.... :roll:

[jch75]

Long live Opel imports to Oz I say, viva la difference - it's nice to have a choice of 'affordable' Euro cars rather than questionable-quality, lack-lustre unimaginitively-designed mainstream Aussie cars or "Jap" (owned) brands banged out in Malaysia/Indonesia/Korea etc...
Maybe Daewoo (GM's 'Asia brand') can be flogged off to Proton or Lotus (Indonesia)? There's always hope lol.

my 2 cents...thanks for listening

I totally agree. I think mainly because suddenly there is some quailty to the line up coming through. The new Opel Astra - looks very refined, cant wait to see it on our roads. The Astras not some crapy hatch anymore - remember the ones we had here in the 80s.

Actually, its quite exciting - all the new cars look pretty good. My friend just bought a mazda3 - very nice - cool looking shape.

I think one key item is keeping the range consistent. If you look at all the new mazdas, they all carry the same theme - same headlights from the mazda3 up to the RX8......same general shape.........Holden need to keep that in mind, especially when building the VE which i'm pretty sure is going to look very EURO. I think it would be odd to have 3 different makes under one brand (Holden, Opel, Daewoo) - it wouldn't look very good when u line up the product range. I hate the thought.

I also have to agree with RJASTRA too "To think that OPEL has any image in Australia is laughable. It has ZERO image". BUT, is that a good thing or a bad thing. In a way, its good because when people see the car - they say "what the hell is that", obviously liking what they see. I have had so many people ask me or comment on my ZC Vectra (at petrol stations), its not funny. Its like they don't know what Opel is (ha!). It felt quite strange - Im not really a car buff and dont normally talk to strangers about CARS! BUT that zero image, is part of the reason I bought the Vectra. I loved the car when I drove it CDXi - & I didnt want to be like everyone else. In Adelaide, I must of been one of the very first owners as I didn't see another for months - but now the 2.2ltr are becoming more common.

I'd like to see some cars come across that close the gap performance wise, on the locally built V8 Holden models. The CDXi is faster than the VT SS Commodore. Abit like ford have done with the XR6T, provide a performance alternative to the XR8. I'm also hoping Holden puts a real supercharger on their new engine - I wouldnt want to see a turbo Commodore - that would be copying Ford.

How would using Daewoo - help me given my needs above? Most people like to step forward not backwards even if it costs more $$$. German built vs Korean - whats the average person going to prefer? Do we all agree as buyers - we want the best product to be offered?

[__Smudge__]

One little phrase says it all........" Each to their own"

If Daewoo floats your boat then sail on dudes 8)

[jch75]

One little phrase says it all........" Each to their own"

If Daewoo floats your boat then sail on dudes 8)

LOL

[blackSRi]

Hey RJ, sorry I missed your line earlier about US and Daewoo - I didn't know that. I mean it would expected though that sales of any Daewoo (eg. Kalos) there would not be significant given the demands and pref of the market (ie compared to other Chevvy lines produced in US), and is still driven by price factor (ie cheapness of purchase)...
Got any figures of US car sales?

[SmellyTofu]

[quote="jch75"]I think the new Astra is due in November...................not 100% but late in the year.
IN REGARDS TO SALE - WHO GIVES A DAMN. IF I LIKE A CAR, I WOULD PREFER I DRIVE IT AND NOT SEE EVERY OTHER DRIVER IN ONE. I wouldn't want to be just another Commodore driver or just another Falcon or WRX driver. I'd like to be just a little unique........................but of course, when ur on a good thing it doesnt always stay that way.

I have driven a mazda6 and like all previous non-turbo mazdas, it was pretty damn poor in response. I don't think you can say it has performance until the turbo model hit our shores sometime next year (i think).
[quote]

Car companies are there to make money. i.e. sales. Having the fastest of fanciest thing doesn't mean it'll sell well. I think more so the marketing of the product helps a lot. You've got to say the 4 donuts and wheels talking to each other campaign (IMHO) was a big flop. Look at the other manufacturers... even Honda and Mazda haven't put much ads for their cars. And less so Subaru coz demand way outstrips supply.

Like it or not, Japanese cars are here to stay and will continue to sell more and more as time progresses.

As RJ said.. Opel has no name in Australia and Holden won't relinquish their name for a foreign name. Brand name is quite important and it's no wonder why the most searched words on the Tradingpost.com.au site is "Holden" and "Commodore". That sort of power can't be bought so I can understand from a company point of view how important a brand name is in the market place.

As for the Barina... if anyone has read the info on the sticky thread, the downspec of Barina to be "price competitive" shows that their margins are getting smaller and smaller. Dealers would be lucky to make $1k on a Barina and more often than not, sell at cost and rely only on the kickback from Holden as their source of profits.

[jch75]

I agree - but at the end of the day a good company will not only strive to top sales. A good company wants to deliver the best product they are capable of providing to satisfy its customer......ME!

I know the cheaper the production, the greater the margin, the better for the company but I am talking from a buyer perspective.

In regards to "Having the fastest of fanciest thing doesn't mean it'll sell well", perhaps Holden should just do limited releases of certain vehicles to hit those niche markets. Most midsized cars buyers will not buy a Holden full stop.

Your average Joe buys a big Commodore to fit the family. Mullet Wearing V8 Revheads by SS Commodores for the grunt..............................Commdores are what makes Holden successful, not Vectras, Astras or any other car. Whats my point, any additional cars should be of superlative quality to boost the companys image.

Most people will say a barina is a heap of crap........................how does that help the company? Maybe they need to bring on a better product and call it something else other than barina. Quality will win in the end but it won't happen over night - its not all about sales figures (it is but when the quality is there, the sales sort themselves). As long as Commdore is selling and remains number 1 in the family car market and SS' are faster than XR8s, Holden will be fine.

In the past 6 months my friends have bought new cars - 1 a mazda mx5, 1 a hyundai lantra, 1 a mitsubishi lancer, 1 a mazda 323, 1 a mazda 3, 1 a vectra CDXi, 1 an Audi A4. As far as I am aware - there is no shortage of car buys - you just have to have a quality product that someone will like to drive and take people in. I don't really think affordability has much to do with it. If someone has $15000 for a new car, they will still buy the best product they can for that money.........................so unless ur car has the quality, ur car wont sell.

Most people buying the lower end cars are either young or old. You don't want a young first car buyer to buy a Holden import and say "I am never buying one of these Holdens again", then when they have more $$$ they upgrade to a Falcon or a Madga (anything else). You want to impress all ur buyers so they work their way up your product range to the point they have gone from buying a $15000 car up through the range to a $50000 car.

[SmellyTofu]

Remember the Maxima with the keyless entry system consisting of 5 buttons on the door handles? Remember the rear parcel shelf fridge in the Toyota Crown? Remember AWD that is used on the seal roads? Remember turbo family cars? Where are they? Let's not comment on Subaru coz they are pitching their cars quite well (no bias involved) but it's really only been these few years that AWD in a low car has been accepted. Who said Subaru Liberty when it first came out was a gimmiky car and 2WD is all we needed.

Unfortunately/Fortunately, the car enthusiast consist of <5% of the market. To spend so much money on <5% of the market is just crazy. Turbo's and fancy traction control systems will always be a luxury item until it begins to be accepted by the cardigan wearers. What happened to simple things such as power windows in the 80's to now? It's becoming more and more as a feature that is "standard".

It's more to do with Australia's taste in transport being an appliance rather than an extension of their personality. We're not talking about the bogans that still think a Commodore is Australian etc etc and a putting Bundy Rum stickers are cool. If you ask any marketer out there, the Australian car market is bland. There's no way of putting it.

Also the focus on "the Australian dream" of a quarter acre block etc etc reduces the amount of disposable income people have to spend on other things such as cars. Most people think parts are gimmiky and these features will die away by the wayside.

Car sales will continue to increase. There is no doubt about that. The competition is stronger than ever and in a market that has relatively low information transfer (thanx to the internet), consumers are demanding more and more for less.

Barina has a bad wrap because of the Suzuki clone days as well as the Corsa B attempt. The Corsa C is worlds apart but because of the nametag, it is tarred with the same brush. Holden Corsa anyone? I think the Barina C is a good car for the price you pay. If you want something better, then you better dig deeper into your pockets coz you can't get something for nothing.

No such thing as a Benz at Hyundai price. You can't get good food at a 5 star resturant for McDonald's price. People have to weigh up a balance between the cost benefit scale. Unfortunately, the Vectra currently is a car that's overpriced and underspec'ed (IMHO) and it is reflected in the market.

[rjastra]

Barina has a bad wrap because of the Suzuki clone days as well as the Corsa B attempt.

The suzuki clone days MADE the Barina. It was the spanish built OPEL that nearly sunk it until the first facelift with the improved interior and more powerful engine.

[SmellyTofu]

Considering the G13B found in the swift out-done the crappy job the Barina got... I think Holden got shortchanged somewhere... This is more aimed at the first Swift than the last Swift. Yes, it was value for money in those days but it still didn't win awards in the old Wheels quality awards.

Yes, the Opel Corsa B was crap.... my gf has one... can't wait to get rid of it really though it's rarely ever driven.

[blackSRi]

Hey Smelly, I agree with most of what you say, but not necissarily:



Also the focus on "the Australian dream" of a quarter acre block etc etc reduces the amount of disposable income people have to spend on other things such as cars. Most people think parts are gimmiky and these features will die away by the wayside.


People love gimmicks! they are always a sell point for something different in the car, plus if you look at sales of vehicles in the +$35K range (with 4WD and V6/V8 ) it has never been better in Oz (average price is increasing) - people are making money - on the back of realestate and stable work - market is booming in Oz (released market stats last coupla weeks) and people are spending
People don't hold back on their second most expensive purchase in Oz, especially when a big car is still: status symbol, lounge room on wheels and suitable for the "offroadin" and high driving position dream, necissary for suburban travel in Oz (public transport in suburbs is not the preferred option for most).
If you look at the 'standard' line in the vehicle, options years earlier are now definitely standard - due to family buys in large cars - take for eg. Alloys, aircon, airbags. We will soon see more features standard (not less) like ABS, traction control (look at for in the XR6 for eg), steering wheel-mounted controls, climate control and cruise - I mean take cruise control, it's the number one reason in WA speed camera revenue is down $1-2M in the last year! now if that's not an example of a 'feature' becoming standard I don't know what is!



Car sales will continue to increase. There is no doubt about that. The competition is stronger than ever and in a market that has relatively low information transfer (thanx to the internet), consumers are demanding more and more for less.


This is true for most commodities - like wine - people want more and more discount for a 'percieved' bargain.

[jch75]

Unfortunately, the Vectra currently is a car that's overpriced and underspec'ed (IMHO) and it is reflected in the market.

Just wanting know why (IYHO) u feel the Vectra CDXi is underspec'd & as compared to what? Reason I ask, ur not the first person in this forum to say that. What are you expecting for the $48000? Are you saying its underspec'd becos of the sales figures? I'm just wondering how u come to that conclusion?

I've read a number of articles that say it is very good car and value for money.

Why don't you read these (don't bore yourself):
http://www.topgear.com/servlet/tg?DEST=/content/jsp/individualRoadTest.jsp&EVENT=1010&MAKE=Vauxhall:E7&MODEL=Vectra:B7&roadTestNumber=21.html

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1808/article.html

http://www.autopoint.co.nz/reviews/reviewstory.asp?ID=5637

http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/reviews/reviewstory.asp?ID=4829
http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/reviews/reviewstory.asp?ID=4952

These guys are the experts and they say you get a good deal?

Yeah I own one.........only because I extensively researched as many cars as possible in the range and liked it the best. The only thing I liked better in the SS Commodore was the V8, otherwise I'd take the SS second. RWD vs FWD both have their benefits. I also took the Accord & Mazda6 luxury models for a cruise and they didn't really compare - mainly performance wise. Nice cars but not as good. The Maxima wasnt bad but I wanted a manual. The only thing I will say is if you do want to pay the extra 10 or 15 Gs, a 350z or RX8 would be very nice but then again, the Vectra isn't supposed to be a sports car - its meant to be a luxury car. I took a second hand BMW 318 for a spin - it felt good to be in one but for the money it wasn't worth it. My friend just bought an AUDI A4, he likes the Vectra better but didn't want to have the same car as me. The Alfa 156 didn't overly impress and felt abit crampy (maybe the performance of the GT would have got it over the line). WRX - hmmmm hated the exhaust and interior was ordinary. I was looking for a luxary car with performance........Anyway, I'd be interested to hear the answers to my initial questions. Cheers.

[jch75]

BUT lets not get too carried away and turn this onto a Vectra topic.....................

[SmellyTofu]

You could buy yourself for $48k driveaway a MY05 Liberty 2.5i Premium auto-only with leather, sunroof, 4WD, 17" wheels... but just having a 1 min browse thru both specs, the only difference feature-wise is the sunroof on the Liberty. Plus I don't need to have to fill it up on ULP all the time to get by in the $1/L days.

The MY04 Liberty wagon had all the safety gear for $39,990 + ORC in manual form. $2k cheaper for sedan. That's an extra $7k to the Vectra and we haven't even looked at the GT nor an upcoming model that's yet to be announced. Yes I am biased coz I work for them but there is a good reason for it.

Add to the fact resale price is important for most people and Subaru has a good reputation for holding it's value after 3, 5 and 10 years. Try selling your CDXi manual for any decent money will be your biggest challenge when it's time to changeover. As great as it feels to drive a manual + luxury bits, people just don't buy them and if they do, they know you won't sell them easily.

But whatever floats your boat... enjoy your Vectra.. it is a nice car but for what I need it for and my lifestyle, there are smaller cars out there that suits me more. There is the Liberty GT (another 5k more) and then there is a whole different kettle of fish but yes, it's a bit more $$ but that'll blow any V8 out of the water both handling-wise and straight line stock for stock. Then there is the power-ups from STi and people from MRT.

[SmellyTofu]

Let me say too that I've also worked for a Holden dealership so my opinion is based on knowledge I know being in Holden and now Subaru.

[jch75]

Fair enough, there are more differences than that though. AND the Subaru (another GM vehicle) would be another very good buy - only I dont like the shape but each to their own. And hang on a tick - the Liberty 2.5i Premium Sedan is $45.5 the wagon $46.5................0 - 100 in 10.8 sec isn't performance, maybe the http://subaru.com.au website is wrong. Your Premium GT, thats an impressive 0-100 in 6.8 which isnt as fast as an SS ($50.5K @ 5.8sec) or a XR6Turbo ($45k @ 5.9sec) but that costs $56000. So............hmmmmm I think u are being bias especially when the Vectra is currently on sale for $46000 and does 0 - 100 in 7.5 (vauxhall says 7.2) and its not a sports car. AND the XR6T is even cheaper.................. AND Commodores will be AWD drive soon as well (I think the lastest Monaro already is). Whack a vortec supercharger onto your SS for the 5 grand diff of the GT Lib & u'r really smokin........

As per the articles provided, the Vectra is still very competitive with the market it is in (Subaru doesnt get a mention). I agree about resale though - but thats not going to be an issue for me as I will be holding on to this one for a long time. Only wished it was AWD (its has Electronic Stability Program [ESP Plus] and some other cool features) but i think that may be coming along with a supercharger in the V6 range, 4 cyls get twinturbo but in any case (both concepts) - neither will probably reach Australia. Who knows whether that will mean more $$$ or just supercede the current models. Funny enough, i got my CDXi for $36000 (demo with 1g on it)....................I was very lucky.Back to talking Daewoos..............