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View Full Version : Wheels Car Of The Year Finalists.............



Red AH SRI T
22nd January 2007, 07:49 PM
Announced tonight on A Current Affair on 9, were the three remaining finalists for COTY.

In no Particular order:

BMW 3 Series Coupe
Holden VE Commodore
Toyota V6 Camry (I refuse to call it the Aurion)


I'm a little confused about the allowing of the 3 series coupe however. Wheels say that body variants of models that have previously been tested for COTY aren't allowed to be judged for a subsequent years award. The 3 series sedan has already been tested, has it not? Why is the 3 Series Coupe being tested as a stand alone model when wheels say they award the gong to the Whole model range and not one particular variant? :confused:



The winner is announced live on ACA tomorrow nite

CJB
22nd January 2007, 08:12 PM
Im thinking, or hoping the VE... because weren't they counting on it, but the Aurion (and yes blackie, I will call it that) is rather hot, and nice! :)

Shaun
22nd January 2007, 10:55 PM
And the Winner is ...
I have my money on the VE Commodore . Wheels is due out on Wed too. I have a feeling after the Special Wheels Commodore mag it will take it out.If it wins car of the year Ford will have a lot of work cut out for them in the next Falcon.

dieselhead
23rd January 2007, 12:15 AM
VE has to win or Wheels mag sales will drop 47.3% :)
it's a no brainer, really. they already used gigalitres of ink on this billion dollar baby...
i can't take them seriously since Territory was crowned COTY

mackeysam
23rd January 2007, 12:52 AM
[QUOTE=Red AH SRI T;192952]Announced tonight on A Current Affair on 9, were the three remaining finalists for COTY.

In no Particular order:

BMW 3 Series Coupe
Holden VE Commodore
Toyota V6 Camry (I refuse to call it the Aurion)


I'm a little confused about the allowing of the 3 series coupe

i'd say that reason for the 3 series being there is because the VE is so europeanly designed....please tell me to shutup if i'm wrong but thats my guess. i'm definately hoping that the VE tops the champ chart...but you never know...

Shaun
23rd January 2007, 06:04 PM
So what won???

PaulyJ
23rd January 2007, 06:14 PM
VE Commodore
Was just announced... suprise suprise!

Shaun
23rd January 2007, 06:19 PM
VE Commodore
Was just announced... suprise suprise!

Im shocked !!!!!!! hehehehe.


Kinda Expected it to...

Red AH SRI T
23rd January 2007, 06:37 PM
YAY!

go Holden ;)

Blue_Dvl
23rd January 2007, 07:04 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL. What a Joke. A $34k motor vehicle still requiring an extra $2k for Air Conditioning makes Car of the Year.

Red AH SRI T
23rd January 2007, 07:11 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOL. What a Joke. A $34k motor vehicle still requiring an extra $2k for Air Conditioning makes Car of the Year.

If You aren't smart, then yes.

It takes a smart person to realise this, and many don't, but here goes.

It's a Marketing thing.

$34490 +ORC for Omega or $36490 with A/C

Special Edition Commodore V, $34990 + ORC, with air. You pay $500 more than a base car and get Air, Alloys, spoiler and other bits.

The marketing department can say for example "$4000 worth of extras", but if air was "standard" then they could only say $2000 worth of extras.

Which sounds better to you.

And besides which, it would be almost impossible to get one without Air.

Ask any Holden dealer when was the last time they sold one without Air.


Its all just a marketing thing my boy, and it gives an Auto VE a similar starting price to a manual Falcon.


See, it all makes sense!

Vectracious
23rd January 2007, 10:05 PM
If You aren't smart, then yes.

It takes a smart person to realise this, and many don't, but here goes.

It's a Marketing thing.

$34490 +ORC for Omega or $36490 with A/C

Special Edition Commodore V, $34990 + ORC, with air. You pay $500 more than a base car and get Air, Alloys, spoiler and other bits.

The marketing department can say for example "$4000 worth of extras", but if air was "standard" then they could only say $2000 worth of extras.

Which sounds better to you.

And besides which, it would be almost impossible to get one without Air.

Ask any Holden dealer when was the last time they sold one without Air.


Its all just a marketing thing my boy, and it gives an Auto VE a similar starting price to a manual Falcon.


See, it all makes sense!

+1

Also, the base Falcon with Air is the same price as the Base commo with air - they just say the Falcon comes with Air Standard.

Blue_Dvl
24th January 2007, 04:03 PM
ahhh i guess the the joke is on me then. Except i was only looking for a base model 6cyl with base model looks..... not a SV6 wanna be.

Currently BF Falcon base model with EURO PACK (17" wheels, 6spd auto and sports suspension) $34k driveaway

Vectracious
24th January 2007, 04:07 PM
ahhh i guess the the joke is on me then. Except i was only looking for a base model 6cyl with base model looks..... not a SV6 wanna be.

Currently BF Falcon base model with EURO PACK (17" wheels, 6spd auto and sports suspension) $34k driveaway

Meh - the joke is on everyone - marketing is just smoke and mirrors... :)

Apex
24th January 2007, 06:45 PM
The VE winning was a no brainer they have done a brilliant job at building a car that is in some ways as good as a mid 90’s BMW 5 Series and sell it for $40k.Congratulations Holden.;)

Im loving my 2007 Wheels/Holden Calendar.:shifty:

Blue_Dvl
24th January 2007, 07:18 PM
i would like to see a comparison or recall stats of a mid 90's bmw to the ve commo LOL

Red AH SRI T
25th January 2007, 09:56 AM
taken from this edition of wheels magazine:

And lets not ignore the two recalls. There's a popular, though mostly incorrect, view that recalls are an index of quality. If so, then BMW, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Subaru are in the same boat as Holden. All of these makers had recall programs active at the time of COTY testing, relating to the 1 Series, 3 series sedan, 5 Series (E34), Grandis, Santa Fe, and Liberty and Outback. Recalls are a common occurence in the automotive business for practically every manufacturer.

Tfer
25th January 2007, 02:21 PM
And did we really seriously expect anything else to win? I didn't.... and yes, I am being sarcastic :rolleyes:

But anyway.... I won't be buying one.... ever ;)

And when my previous employer offered a Commodore or AH Astra.... yep jumped at the Astra ;)

My 2 cents...

Wraith
25th January 2007, 02:54 PM
ahhh i guess the the joke is on me then. Except i was only looking for a base model 6cyl with base model looks..... not a SV6 wanna be.

Currently BF Falcon base model with EURO PACK (17" wheels, 6spd auto and sports suspension) $34k driveaway

Just for conversations sake, would you really prefer a BF Falcon - any model - over a VE....?

The VE is a generation ahead of the BF family.

Ford won't have a similar class of car until their next major new model update, who knows how far away that is........

Apex
25th January 2007, 03:31 PM
i would like to see a comparison or recall stats of a mid 90's bmw to the ve commo LOL

My old man has had a 96 528i since new, it has been recalled twice, 1st time for airbags, 2nd time for water pump.;)


taken from this edition of wheels magazine:

And lets not ignore the two recalls. There's a popular, though mostly incorrect, view that recalls are an index of quality. If so, then BMW, Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Subaru are in the same boat as Holden. All of these makers had recall programs active at the time of COTY testing, relating to the 1 Series, 3 series sedan, 5 Series (E34), Grandis, Santa Fe, and Liberty and Outback. Recalls are a common occurence in the automotive business for practically every manufacturer.

100% correct, a good friend of mine works for Toyota (perceived as the most reliable car money can buy) and he tells me most models get recalled for things as miner as wiper blades to as major as fuel line leaks. Most cars have problems that arise over time that are imposable for the manufactures to predict, maybe recalls are cheaper then exhaustive testing:confused: .

SSS_Hoon
25th January 2007, 03:58 PM
i can honestly say that i would take a bf over a ve for sure.


SSS_Hoon

Red AH SRI T
25th January 2007, 05:43 PM
i can honestly say that i would take a bf over a ve for sure.


SSS_Hoon

Have you driven both?

SSS_Hoon
25th January 2007, 06:07 PM
not a ve, a few ba and bf's.

although if there were a turbo VE then i would be swayed i think


SSS_Hoon

Blue_Dvl
25th January 2007, 09:15 PM
not driven the VE. But yes would drive a BF over a VE.......VE has modern chassis maybe but still decade old 4spd and 2 year old V6.

thats of course in reference to the base models.


Good on Holden for a clean sweep of nearly every automotive accolade this year, heaven knows they paid enough for it :p they should cherish the moment

Red AH SRI T
26th January 2007, 10:31 AM
not a ve, a few ba and bf's.

although if there were a turbo VE then i would be swayed i think


SSS_Hoon

go take a VE SS for a drive, then see if u still think the same ;)

MatsHolden
26th January 2007, 05:30 PM
and 2 year old V6.



Apposed to Ford's straight 6 they've been basically using for how long?

Vectracious
26th January 2007, 06:04 PM
Apposed to Ford's straight 6 they've been basically using for how long?

Now now Mat, 1960 wasn't THAT long ago.... ;)

xplosv57
27th January 2007, 04:07 PM
Congratulations on the VE winning, but correct me if im worng but everytime Holden has brought out a Commodore, its taken out the award (VB, VN, VR, VT and now VE)!! But since i love my Commys, im overjoyed!!

Just on the 3 series coupe being there on its own without the sedan counterpart, in previous years, the coupe and sedan have had the same model designation (eg E36 or E46) however with the current 3, theyre actually stamped as seperate models (E90 sedan, E92 Coupe) thats what i believe the reason would be!!

On and up for the VE!!!!!

Wraith
27th January 2007, 04:37 PM
not a ve, a few ba and bf's.

although if there were a turbo VE then i would be swayed i think


SSS_Hoon

I've gotta repeat Red AH Sri t's answer to this comment........

Please SSS, go either take one for a test drive ( ie at least an SS) or at least ride shot gun with someone who knows how to drive one properly or even better still, take a ride/drive in one of the new VE HSV's - you won't wanna a BF anymore afterwards, I guarantee you that !!!

I went for a drive in a new VE GTS from Booran Holden in Dande. late last year, was impressed with the cars feel compared to previous Commos and the performance is staggering......no shortage of 'hero young guns' in Dandenong wanting to give you a run in rex's and skylines - demolished all comers with ease :D and the GTS was an auto hahahaha :D let me tell you they hammer ;)

And the SS is even quicker than it's heavier and bigger wheeled HSV versions ;)

VE's with forced induction.......END GAME :D

xplosv57
27th January 2007, 05:04 PM
And if Holden pulls their finger out, there will be a turbocharged SV6 in showrooms soon!!!

Ive been fighting and debating about the Holden vs. Ford, Commodore vs. Falcon thing since i was a little kid and in all honesty ive never lost a debate, Holdens always got something ahead of Ford every time!!

Ill admit, the XR6 Turbo was one of the best desicions Ford ever made, but when Holden brings out their variant, itll be game over!!!!

Blue_Dvl
27th January 2007, 05:18 PM
yeah Ford Versus Holden debate is easily settled because Toyota Wins.

MatsHolden
27th January 2007, 05:21 PM
yeah Ford Versus Holden debate is easily settled because Toyota Wins.

hahahahaha how? lol

xplosv57
27th January 2007, 05:22 PM
In boredom yes, in anything else, i dont see it!!! They are ahead in the sales only because they have a large commercial base, eg, hilux, hiace otherwise Holden would be ahead!!

Wraith
27th January 2007, 05:25 PM
yeah Ford Versus Holden debate is easily settled because Toyota Wins.

In all honesty, if Toyota didn't have the Corolla, they wouldn't even register !!!

Not that there's anything wrong with that - I like and have owned a Corolla myself :)

MatsHolden
27th January 2007, 05:25 PM
They are ahead in the sales only because they have a large commercial base, eg, hilux, hiace otherwise Holden would be ahead!!

Spot on.......

Blue_Dvl
27th January 2007, 08:14 PM
i dont know, despite toyota making a far more modern and up today product than both Gmh and Ford I find both the aurion and camry (same car) quite boring both interior and to drive however in relation to my remark its a good come back for any falcon fan after the 1st and only argument of "ford is better than holden" :p

01CDsedan
28th January 2007, 09:09 AM
All I can say to those of you who are bagging the VE without having driven one is....go drive one.

I did, and I bought one.

Diabolical
28th January 2007, 11:02 AM
i dont know, despite toyota making a far more modern and up today product than both Gmh and Ford I find both the aurion and camry (same car) quite boring both interior and to drive however in relation to my remark its a good come back for any falcon fan after the 1st and only argument of "ford is better than holden" :p

Can totally agree on the boring part.

Having driven a BF Falcon (Generally most of the range upto the XR6 Turbo, manuals and autos), VY Commodore (Calais 6cyl, 5 speed auto) and the new Aurion (6 speed auto), I can say they all have thier pluses and negatives.

The Aurion's engine is great, but you have to deal with the stupid transmission, which will dump itself into 4th gear whenever you get the sequential going, wether moving or at a standstill (never been able to work out why it does that). You also have to deal with how boring the car feels overall and some seriously odd dynamics. The backend still feels like it is not part of the car and could slip out at any moment (Old Camrys had this as well). It also liked to chirp it's tyres a fair bit, but I'll put this down to cheap tyres, FWD and too powerful an engine for the body to handle. Interior made me want to fall asleep.

The BF (POV packs) have a great transmission, but the engine feels sluggish (Turbo was fine though), the body roll was horrible though, felt like the thing wanted to bounce around a corner thanks to the suspension (Turbo seemed to fix this as well), plus I could never reach any of the controls. I've been told a fair few times that Falcons are designed so large people can fit in them, I can totally agree with it now. The clutch in the manual was hard as buggery as well. Overall, car felt really heavy.

The VY's transmission was useless (The 5 speed, would like to compare this to the new 6 speed), the sequential takes way too long to shift so it's easier to just leave it in auto mode (It's also extremely easy to break), the engine feels alright (this is the high output alloytec 6cyl), but the Aurion's engine kills it but so many lengths. Handling wise, the Commodore comes out on top, the POV pack commodore I drove once wasn't too good, still felt better than the Falcon though. The Calias though dosn't suffer from as much body roll and can handle corners really well, tyres also felt quite grippy. One thing that always annoyed me about the VY though, is I can never get a decent seating position, my head nearly always hits the roof and I always have to have the steering wheel in a wierd position because I can never see the speedo, etc.

So if it was up to me to have a 6cyl large car, I would take the body and suspension of the Commodore, transmission from the BF and the engine from the Aurion, and make sure it's RWD. Interior would have to be from the Aurion, because it was the easiest to use. But this is just my opinion.

Edit: This post is far longer than what I expected it to be.

pred8r
28th January 2007, 11:39 AM
Now now Mat, 1960 wasn't THAT long ago.... ;)

If you are on to a good thing........


eg mitsu evo engine 4g63(????)

ultim8DTM5
28th January 2007, 01:33 PM
Just on the 3 series coupe being there on its own without the sedan counterpart, in previous years, the coupe and sedan have had the same model designation (eg E36 or E46) however with the current 3, theyre actually stamped as seperate models (E90 sedan, E92 Coupe) thats what i believe the reason would be!!



I'd say it was because both the E90 and E92 are available in several variants; from petrol to diesel, from 4 to 6 to turbocharged. Granted, the E92 does not come in a 4 or a diesel, but you get my point.

Vectracious
28th January 2007, 07:16 PM
If you are on to a good thing........


eg mitsu evo engine 4g63(????)

First seen in the early 80's? Still a heck of a lot newer than the inline 6 from Ford...

Apex
29th January 2007, 11:08 AM
The 3 series coupe is a different car to the 3 series sedan, it shares no conmen body components, and offers different engines, and features a completely different interior!

BMW 3 series coupe deserveably won the un-bias NZ AA-Autocar magazine car of the year award!.

The BA-BF was better than the VT-VZ, the VE is better than the BA-BF. And when Ford brings out the next gen Falcon it will most likely be better than the VE. The Ford/Holden argument is easily resolved when you have no preference for either brand.

MatsHolden
29th January 2007, 11:12 AM
The 3 series coupe is a different car to the 3 series sedan, it shares no conmen body components, and offers different engines, and features a completely different interior!

BMW 3 series coupe deserveably won the un-bias NZ AA-Autocar magazine car of the year award!.

The BA-BF was better than the VT-VZ, the VE is better than the BA-BF. And when Ford brings out the next gen Falcon it will most likely be better than the VE. The Ford/Holden argument is easily resolved when you have no preference for either brand.

Can only compare VY to VZ really with the BA-BF. VT-VX mauled the AU series. Ford picked up the pieces and made the BA what the AU should've been. BA = highly refined AU. And yeh those 3 series Coupe's look great.

xplosv57
29th January 2007, 04:38 PM
2006: Top 10 vehicles (including commercials)


Vehicle Sales in thousands

1.Holden Commodore:56,531
2.Toyota Corolla: 46,256
3. Ford Falcon: 42,390
4.Toyota Hi-Lux: 36,885
5.Mazda3: 32,432
6.Toyota Camry: 30,244
7.Toyota Yaris: 27,990
8.Hyundai Getz: 20,853
9.Holden Astra (+ cabrio): 20,588
10.Holden Rodeo: 18,446

ultim8DTM5
29th January 2007, 07:38 PM
What do you get when you minus fleet?

Blue_Dvl
29th January 2007, 08:13 PM
Commodore VT-VY............. Same Car, different cosmetics
Commodore VZ..................Same Car, Different V6, thats all


AU was a new shell with essentially EL running gear (with exception of VCT XR engine)

BA/BF......... Same as AU but with newer more refined engine and transmissions than AU and better Cosmetics.


How many generations is the VE model expected to live for??? It is a quite modern shape but so was the VT when 1st launched in 98 and that lived on for 8 years.

MatsHolden
29th January 2007, 10:00 PM
Commodore VT-VY............. Same Car, different cosmetics
Commodore VZ..................Same Car, Different V6, thats all


AU was a new shell with essentially EL running gear (with exception of VCT XR engine)

BA/BF......... Same as AU but with newer more refined engine and transmissions than AU and better Cosmetics.


How many generations is the VE model expected to live for??? It is a quite modern shape but so was the VT when 1st launched in 98 and that lived on for 8 years.

Actually a lot more than just cosmetics and engine changes from VT-VZ. Yes the same car from VT-VZ like the AU-BF, but you'd be amazed at the changes made to the underpinnings from VT to VZ.

VT was launched in '97 so it almost ran for 10 years, VE they're only expecting to run closer to 5 years. The days of running the 'same' car for 10 years are now over.

btm
30th January 2007, 07:47 AM
What do you get when you minus fleet?
What do you get when you minus taxi's? :p

rjastra
30th January 2007, 02:32 PM
The 3 series coupe is a different car to the 3 series sedan, it shares no conmen body components, and offers different engines, and features a completely different interior!


All the engines in the coupe are/will be available in the sedan.
The interior is essentially the same as the sedans.

ultim8DTM5
30th January 2007, 06:45 PM
What do you get when you minus taxi's? :p

No V8 Supercars!

culfy
30th January 2007, 07:48 PM
Meh - the joke is on everyone - marketing is just smoke and mirrors... :)
Of course. Where do you think the SV8 went? It's called the SS and the SS is now called the SS-V. Why? Because they can now say that the SS has dropped in price by $5k. I want an SV8 that has dropped in price by $5k!

culfy
30th January 2007, 08:12 PM
i dont know, despite toyota making a far more modern and up today product than both Gmh and Ford I find both the aurion and camry (same car) quite boring both interior and to drive however in relation to my remark its a good come back for any falcon fan after the 1st and only argument of "ford is better than holden" :p
There is no question that the Aussie car (Falcon/Commodore is one of the best value cars in the world. Look at the price of the Astra vs the commodore. The SS is in a completely different league. For only $10k more look at the car you can buy. 6.6kg/kW SS, 7.6 for the VXR. No contest. Don't start me on the Falcons. You have to do a bit to your Astra to get a 13.4 (15.3 for the standard Astra SRi-T) second 1/4 mile. Motor got that from a stock standard SS! Toyota.......let's not go there! Anyone read bang for your bucks this year? OK, there was no Aurion or Camry in there but how'd you think it would go?
Anyway, it's rear wheel drive so it's always going to be more fun. Don't get me wrong, I love my Astra (would love it even more if all it's valve stems were straight) but the VE is a great car and there is something about a RWD V8 that lives in my blood!:D

culfy
30th January 2007, 08:14 PM
What do you get when you minus fleet?
Probably a lot less Camrys LOL!:clap:

01CDsedan
30th January 2007, 08:56 PM
Of course. Where do you think the SV8 went? It's called the SS and the SS is now called the SS-V. Why? Because they can now say that the SS has dropped in price by $5k. I want an SV8 that has dropped in price by $5k!

I wanted an SV8 with SS seats for years, and what do you know, Holden went and created one and put SS badges on it as a bonus :) I didn't much care for things like alloy pedals, climate control or leather gearshift knobs so the old SV8 and new SS are perfect for me.

culfy
30th January 2007, 09:00 PM
I wanted an SV8 with SS seats for years, and what do you know, Holden went and created one and put SS badges on it as a bonus :) I didn't much care for things like alloy pedals, climate control or leather gearshift knobs so the old SV8 and new SS are perfect for me.
Yeah, I'm with you. I just wished they'd make the SV8 still as we'd be able to get one for $40k since the VE came down in price by $5k LOL!

Red AH SRI T
31st January 2007, 07:56 PM
Of course. Where do you think the SV8 went? It's called the SS and the SS is now called the SS-V. Why? Because they can now say that the SS has dropped in price by $5k. I want an SV8 that has dropped in price by $5k!

SV8 had no equipment.

the VE SS is only missing leather and climate control compared to the VZ.

Hardly a rebadged SV8.

culfy
31st January 2007, 09:36 PM
SV8 had no equipment.

the VE SS is only missing leather and climate control compared to the VZ.

Hardly a rebadged SV8.

SV8 = cheapest way into a v8 commodore. The marketing people shifted the SS badge downstream to claim a price cut. This was "smoke and mirrors" to convince the less bright among us that the SS was cheaper now. It isn't. The SS-V sits in the position previously afforded the SS. They had an issue with the RRP of the SS becoming $53k.
Toys do not a car make! The beauty of the SV8 was that it had nothing it didn't need. Personally I don't mind wind up windows as it saves weight and therefore increases performance! If you want a luxury car, buy a Calais! This is where HSV went wrong. Upmarket is not what it's about. Put your effort into handling, going and stopping. Climate control is not for motorsport buffs. Having spent many an hour on Mallala racetrack the less the car weighs the less you burn out your tyres, use less fuel, go faster and get a faster lap time. OK I don't want to de-skin the doors but most of the fruit in new cars like power windows are wa#k features. I'd rather spend the money on the fun stuff. Crap stereo is fine. Give me the option to change it.

Apex
1st February 2007, 07:32 AM
SV8 had no equipment.

the VE SS is only missing leather and climate control compared to the VZ.

Hardly a rebadged SV8.

Just off the top of my head im sure the “V” gains better head lights, bigger wheels and a slightly different kit as well. But maybe that’s just in our market.

MatsHolden
1st February 2007, 08:18 AM
Just off the top of my head im sure the “V” gains better head lights, bigger wheels and a slightly different kit as well. But maybe that’s just in our market.

Yeh it does. Same bodykit, jut a bigger rear spoiler. RedAHSRiT was talking about the SS, not SS-V. :cool:

culfy
1st February 2007, 05:25 PM
Just off the top of my head im sure the “V” gains better head lights, bigger wheels and a slightly different kit as well. But maybe that’s just in our market.
Which means it has even more fruit to weigh it down! It also has Leather seats and some other gunk inside that try to make a sports car a luxury car.

xplosv57
1st February 2007, 08:07 PM
My solution, BRING BACK THE EXECUTIVE V8!!!!!!

What sleeper value, if i could find a late model V8 Exec that hasn't been molested, id get one straight away although i love my luxuries!!! Ill never forget the day i saw a "povvo spec" VX II Exec rip the doors off cars at the drags, 5.7L 6spd and stock standard, even the wussy 15" hubcaps, no one could ever pick it!!!

So Holden, we need to see a VE Omega with a 6.0L V8 and a 6 speed manual in the option box!!!!!

culfy
1st February 2007, 09:15 PM
My solution, BRING BACK THE EXECUTIVE V8!!!!!!

What sleeper value, if i could find a late model V8 Exec that hasn't been molested, id get one straight away although i love my luxuries!!! Ill never forget the day i saw a "povvo spec" VX II Exec rip the doors off cars at the drags, 5.7L 6spd and stock standard, even the wussy 15" hubcaps, no one could ever pick it!!!

So Holden, we need to see a VE Omega with a 6.0L V8 and a 6 speed manual in the option box!!!!!

Check out my album. I'll upload a couple of pics that I think you'll like.