Abrasion spots on convertible roof

[Jerry Crockford]

Any know-how about this?

On each side of the car, the fabric on my soft top has three spots (six in total), where the fabric is being rubbed/abraded/scuffed. Each spot is about 3 to 4cm diameter.

The marks are not where the fabric is ON the ribs, they are BETWEEN the ribs.

Watching what happens when it folds down, the rubbing isn't caused by fabric-on-metal. It is just fabric-on-fabric, as it always folds in the same spot each time.

It isn't really bad, but it is clearly going to cause major wear problems if it continues.

One thought I've had is to glue some patches of semi-stiff plastic UNDERNEATH the fabric to re-train the fabric to fold in a different way, thus sparing the SAME fold-spot from rubbing on itself where the fabric folds.

Has anyone seen this? Or have any ideas?

Cheers,

Jerry

[imay]

I know the "spots" you are referring to, but don't have any answers. I have spoken to 2 Holden dealers about it, but when we checked a convertible on their lot, that also had these spots. I noticed mine soon after I got it (12 months old in Nov) and I can't say it's really gotten any worse as time goes on. My roof can be raised and lowered several times a day, so I am concerned enough to keep an eye on it to see if it gets any worse. I too can't figure out where it is happening.
As far as putting anything on the underside of the roof, don't forget these roofs are triple layered. That is: interior roof lining, foam insulating layer, then the outside layer. To be able to get to the underside of the outside layer may be rather difficult AND you may end up with worse marks from the shape of the "patches" you are planning on using.
Talk to a reputable motor trimmer (not upholsterer) and see what they say. I have mentioned the crease marks before, but not these scuff marks. The crease marks are something we have to learn to live with . . . or keep the roof down so you can't see them!
Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

[Wraith]

Interesting guys, I don't have any such wear marks on mine.

Although mine is only weekend driven and always garaged and the roof is retracted maybe only 1/2 a dozen times a year, so very little usage.

Can one of you post some pics of the affected area/patches in question, I'm curious to see what it looks like.

[R3N]

there's an idea... keep the top down!

hehe... but what sort of material is the top? canvas?

[Wraith]

there's an idea... keep the top down!

hehe... but what sort of material is the top? canvas?

Not really sure, imay may know, but I don't think it's canvass (canvass is cotton yeh ?), it looks and feels more like a synthetic, maybe a blend of nylon and something else or maybe a cotton/sythetic blend.

Whatever it is, one thing I know for sure - it's exactly the same material as used by SAAB and BMW soft top convertibles !

Not sure about the Merc soft tops.

[Jerry Crockford]

canvas?

Canvas?

CANVAS?

Heeeeellllllo R3N?

We don't put frikking 'canvas' on an ASTRA!!!

Maaaaate! Canvas is for trucks, tents, outdoor dunnies and sea anchors!

This, I'll have you know, is a beeeeeutiful high-density fabric, specially developed for use on superior quality, exotic motor vehicles called Astras! Sheeesh! (Shakes head in despair).

Seriously, yes it is like a canvas I guess.

And Wraith, I am glad to see you haven't gotten any spots.

They are really only caused when the roof is down, (or folded up, depending on whether you are an 'up' or a 'down' kind of person. Lol!) and can rub on itself as one rattles along.

In my case, it is pretty well always down, and, having spoken to the previous owner, they did a lot of open top motoring as well.

Really, it may be just normal wear and tear, in which case I'll cop it sweet and save my pennies ($4k) for a new roof when it wears out in the years to come.

My main interest at this juncture was to see if any other convertible owners had struck a similar problem, and importantly, if they had found a way to stop it or slow it down.

See ya,

Jerry

(Stumps off to the garage, muttering "Canvas! Sheesh! That R3N just doesn't understand".)

[Wraith]

Good one Jerry.

4k for a top re-do, that's actually very good, I've been told 7-7.5k by a person I bumped into in a servo with a vert about 1 1/2 years ago, who was considering refurbishing hers because it was looking worse for wear.

Imay also got qouted around 7k I believe.

I might do some reaserch on this subject when I get some spare time over the coming weeks - I'm very curious now to know more.

About 2 years ago I tried to investigate if there were any specialised soft top care products out there - my search lead me to Porsche dealers as I found out Porsche did at one stage make a special conditioning product to apply to their soft tops, but no one had it here in Australia.

Holden don't have anything for it, nor do Opel or SAAB.

Just have to be very careful and look after it as much as possible.

[Jerry Crockford]

Hmmmm....

The $4k figure came from a Holden dealer last week when I was showing him my spots. (Offered to show my rash too, but he didn't seem too keen. Lol!)

He said that's for the fabric (Um... canvas to you, R3N) only. If it is the hoops, mechanism and gizzards, THEN you are looking down the barrell of $7k.

I have looked EXTENSIVELY into fabric care, and found a product from 303 that is recommended by the two main suppliers of automotive canvas, being http://www.haartz.com/ and www.sunbrella.com

I bought some in a two part kit (Cleaner and Protectant) from an Aussie online shop called www.waxit.com.au and have been delighted with the results. (Waxit are based in Brisbane, and I HIGHLY recommend them. I spoke to Dave, the owner, with some leather care questions and he was a great help!).

Since putting the protectant on, water beads up on the fabric beautifully. And, I have the peace of mind knowing that the UV protectant is first class.

From reading as much as I can (Try Googling Convertible Roof Care), it is certainly best NOT to use a silicone based protectant. They can do more harm than good.

I also bought (after MORE reading!) some Poor Boys leather conditioner from waxit, and that is just lovely. It keeps the seats in beaut nick, AND, (this ismportant for a convertible), has high UV protection as well.

Cheers,

Jerry

PS. Just lemme know if you wanna see my rash and I'll give you a peek.

[R3N]

You're posts are just so entertaining Jerry. But the fact is that it is CANVAS!:D

Have a read of this:
http://autopia-carcare.com/inf-cabrio.html


Most modern convertibles and roadsters have soft tops made of a durable polyacrylic/polyester canvas or vinyl. The fabric-like canvas tops feel nice and look great, while the vinyl tops are more economical and easier to maintain.

[nicecar]

Hi Jerry,

Yes I have a few of these spots, I will take some photos tomorrow, I will be interested what yours look like.
Shame the first one appeared months after the warrenty ran out :(

Yes the roof is a quality material, I remember doing a search and is the same material used on the BMW Z/3 series, Aston Martin DB7, Audio 80 Cab.

[platypus]

i realise that this does solve the problem... but would there be a hard top option (such as on the emex 5?)

but have a look here under the car car guide - (obviously) soft tops
http://www.detailguide.com/
http://www.autoglym.co.uk


but once the damage starts its probably going to get a little hard to repair with products alone

[Wraith]

You're posts are just so entertaining Jerry. But the fact is that it is CANVAS!:D

Have a read of this:
http://autopia-carcare.com/inf-cabrio.html

Ah yes, it is referred to as canvas, but 'canvas' is a loose term used to describe any type of heavy coarse cloth !

Research I've recently conducted (different site to that posted by R3N) shows our soft top 'canvas' material is actually a durable polyacrylic/polyester - as stated above, with either polyester or dacron stichting.

There are many good soft top care products in the States, but they won't ship them here......

I'll check out the ones you've listed Jerry.

BTW Jerry I have a missus, but I still sleep with my Astra T Convertible anyway LOL !!!

Here's an article (one of many and they're all good) some of you may have already seen, on the Astra convertible not long after it's release - more so the turbo model, (I am biased toward this variant) enjoy...........

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_1894/article.html?popularArticle

[nicecar]

Here are some pics of the wear spots on my roof, be interested if the same place etc.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/7051/rooflargehz8.jpg

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7100/rooflargehp2.jpg

Regards

Matt

[Jerry Crockford]

Yep! Those spots are exakkery the same as mine!

Can you show us your rash as well? It might be the same too!

Seriously, they are the same thing. have six, three on each side.

On the weekend I plan to try and sneak some stiffish-but-flexible plastic underneath (have to burrow in past the other two layers) with contact cement to try and force the material to fold in a different way. That may, (And I mean MAY) stop the fabric from rubbing on itself.

Since spotting (Pardon the pun) this problem, I've been looking constantly at other roofs on Beamers, MX5s, Audies etc and haven't seen it on any of them.

I suspect that the General (Mind you, I am bitter and twisted about my experience as an SS owner) specified an inferior fabric when these were made. I may be wrong, but even though these cars are built in Belgium and designed by Bertone, my bet is that a cost saving "so long as it looks good on the showroom floor" attitude has once again, bitten me on the arse. This is indeed a shame, as everything else about the car is bloody marvy!

Cheers,

Jerry

[Wraith]

Ouch ! they look nasty........

As I mentioned before, I have no such thing on mine - Thank Goodness !!!

[entice]

Na, NB and NC mx5's all ran a vinyl roof...

[imay]

This looks similar to the marks I have . . . only much, much, much worse. Now I am concerned that mine could end up the same.
I have taken the liberty of forwarding this pic on to a mate of mine in Tassie (he's a fully qualified "coach builder," trained in UK, does impeccable work with leathers, and is a wealth of information re materials, retrims, etc.).
I have asked him to check out any Astra convertibles he may see in car yards around the place and see if he can identify the damage, cause, long term effects, cure, etc.
He's not known for his speed, so I'll keep at him and post up any information he can provide.

[Wraith]

Hi Ian

That would be some great info to have ! well done.

I'm especially curious to know the cause, as prevention is better than cure, I can avoid this altogether with mine.

Keep us posted.

[imay]

Got some answers for you guys. Probably not necessarily what you wanted to hear, but some of it is good news at least.

First: The material on the Astra roof is top grade. Very well made and couldn't be custom stitched any cheaper than you can buy over the counter (my mate is checking a couple of suppliers here in Oz and will get back to me).
Don't use ANYTHING other than water and a soft brush to clean it, but do it regularly as dirt and road grime will get into the weave and cause wear and deterioration of the fabric/threads.
Let it fade gracefully, as over the counter cleaning/protectant products could interfere with the material's natural waterproofing and shape characteristics (that is it could cause moisture permeatation and stretching/sagging or shrinkage over time).

Now the wear marks: Basically, learn to live with them! ALL soft top convertibles have them eventually, and yes, they will get worse and eventually lead to needing a roof material replacement, when it gets bad enough. My mate has seen (and had to replace roofs) on Jaguar, Saab, Porsche etc., suffering the same effects. He reckons anything from the cheapest to the most expensive convertibles will suffer the same problem.
It is caused by the material, when folded, "chattering" against itself.
His advice: Around town, do nothing and don't worry about it. On the open road or longer trips get hold of a piece or pieces of dark colored VELOUR seat material and have someone hold these pieces in place over the "spots" as the roof is folded down. Use velour only, as this is non-abrasive and won't leave "dust/fluff" marks on the roof material like you could get from toweling, etc.
Oh, and wash off bird crap and tree sap as soon as possible. Can be very corrosive!

Hope this has helped answer a few questions. Any more information needed, please ask away, as my mate is only too happy to supply answers.
He saw an Astra convertible for sale the other day and was seriously tempted.

[Jerry Crockford]

Wow!

Thanks for that. I feel better already Ian.

Except for one thing...

If it doesn't stretch the friendship, (As opposed to the fabric) with your expert friend, could you ask about the following...

I did some hunting and looked at the wesites for Haartz, Sunbrella and other quality fabric manufacturers, and was steered to their recommended product for cleaning/waterproofing convertible roofs.

I tracked down a supplier in Australia, and bought it over the net.

It is a two part cleaner/protectant (http://www.303products.com/tech/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=430&CFID=2747031&CFTOKEN=11956223) system by 303, and has done a terrific job. The water beads up on beautifully, and it has a strong UV protectant as well.

I planned to do this once-a-year.

a. Have I done any damage by using this? (If so, I know of a high bridge nearby to jump off!) and
b. Given that it isn't a cheap over-the-counter product and is highly recommended, should I stick to my 12 monthly plan?

Thanks a heap.

Jerry

[imay]

Jerry:
He won't openly criticise any products that are available, other than he is a purist and recommends that cleaning and conditioning products not be used on the roof material. So many are solvent based, or contain harmful (to fabrics/materials) surfactants, and once the damage is done it's there for good. In the end, the decision has to be yours alone, based on the advice and recommendations you have obtained from your relevant supplier/s. This is not to say that he is not open to criticism and negative comments from others, but trust me, this guy knows his business.

Leather is another one he recommends that commercial products not be used on. Warm water with a (very) little bit of Softly or equivalent cleaner can be used if you feel it necessary to wipe away any "unattractive" stains/marks. Leather is a natural product that has to "breathe." Clogging up the pores with polishes and commercial cleaners will degrade the leather and speed up the wear process. Of course, UV doesn't help either, but . . .
Again, let it age gracefully, then if you really feel you must do something about it . . . replace it!

[Wraith]

Thanks too for all that info Ian.

I must say I feel relieved, as my philosophy has also always been to 'NOT' use any product whatsoever on the fabric top.

I have always just used plain water and a soft sponge to clean it and try hard to not let any soap from cleaning the duco touch the top.

I would never use a 'scotchgaurd' type product, simply from my experience with these products on home lounges - it eventually deteriorates and leaves patchy marks, (kind of like applying varnish to timber) and with the convertible being exposed to outside elements as opposed to a lounge being inside, I'd hate to even think of the long term outcome, especially if you keep re-applying it, it will just keep building up within the fabric, harden up and go no where.

Another thing I do (and it's easier in my case, because the car is only weekend driven) is to cover the car (ie: the fabric top) whilst parked in the garage to prevent dust/debris from building up in the fabric.

I use a king size silk bed sheet, which cost next to nothing from a spotlight store - it's even the same colour as the car - silver....... :)

I chose silk because it's smooth and dosn't cause any friction/resistance with the fabric top, so installation/removal is quick and easy - unlike cotton which 'clings' and may cause wear n tear.

Keep us posted on any further info - much appreciated :)

Oh and speaking of leather, that's another area I've also left untouched as well.

I've seen and been in too many a car with leather interiors that have been treated with all manner of cleaners conditioners etc. and all of them had many unapealing results (for me anyway) - slippery like oil on a plastic sheet - way too shiny, for me full gloss leather just dosn't look real - all cracks and creases in the leather actually seem to stand out more, probably because of the greater contrast from the glossier finish ?